Axioms are self-evident assumptions. Without the observable axiom, science cannot function properly. If scientists cannot observe reality or if they
observe it incorrectly, then all scientific theories are suspect. Fortunately, this axiom is self-evident to most.
Today science does not understand how life originated. The better science understands the nature of the problems associated with the origin of life
the more mysterious life’s origin becomes. Today, every theory concerning the origin of life suffers from the same problem. The probability of life
originating is so small that the extreme age and size of the universe cannot offset the poor odds. The most popular theory concerning the origin of
life proposes that life arose as a perpetual motion machine. Yet physics clearly states that perpetual motion cannot exist.
The principles of thermodynamics are so well established, both theoretically and experimentally, that proposals for perpetual motion machines are
universally met with disbelief on the part of physicists.
There is of course no scientific law or demonstrable process that would let something evolve from nothing. If there was nothing in the universe to
begin with, obviously nothing could happen to cause anything to appear.
The problem is that if you can't get something from nothing, it's pointless thinking you can accurately explain the next step. Juggle the figures
any way you like, but without a Creator you are not going to get anything, let alone everything.
Contributions of Creationism/Intelligent Design to Science, page 10
privacy
reply posted on 1-4-2011 @ 12:33 PM by Faith2011
reply to post by zcflint05
Rightly-Dividing Geology and the Book of Genesis Beyond
the "Gap Theory" of Creationism
Many people think the six creation days in Genesis are a description of the Earth's geologic history. They are not! The geologic record shows that the Earth existed long before the six days and long before Adam. There is a time-gap between the first two verses of Genesis.
Genesis narrative that does not contradict the scientific evidence for an Old Earth. Commonly called the "Gap Theory" or Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation, it is a theological interpretation much older than Darwin's Theory of Evolution. It is based on the Scriptural fact that in the second verse of Genesis, the Holy Bible simply and clearly states that the planet Earth was already here (but in a ruined state) before the Divine process described in those six days even begins. Understanding this Biblical mystery begins with the precise wording of this New Testament cross-reference:
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)
Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed. The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man. This invalidates the popular Doctrine of Young Earth Creationism.
The Bible itself provides insight into a great mystery in Earth's natural history at what is known as the Pleistocene - Holocene boundary. Science remains at a loss to definitively explain the Ice Age and the anomaly of the mysterious mega fauna extinctions across the face of the Earth about 12,000 to 10,000 Radio Carbon years ago. Geologic evidence from that period indicates extraordinary global massive volcanism, gigantic tidal waves, seismic activity on a vast scale, and extreme temperature swings on the Earth over a geologically brief period of time. It is no coincidence that the Bible at Genesis 1:2 describes the Earth as flooded, desolate, and in darkness in the timeframe closely corresponding to these catastrophic events in the Earth's natural history. Clearly, these two mysteries are linked.
Why the old "world that then was" ended, and why God made a new world and modern Man, requires a study into the ancient origins of Satan and the Angels. The Earth has an ancient natural history that can be deciphered from the geologic record, but it also has an equally important ancient spiritual history that can only be deciphered from Rightly-Dividing the Holy Bible. Knowledge of both is required to correctly reconcile Geology and the Book of Genesis.www.kjvbible.org...
Rightly-Dividing Geology and the Book of Genesis Beyond
the "Gap Theory" of Creationism
Many people think the six creation days in Genesis are a description of the Earth's geologic history. They are not! The geologic record shows that the Earth existed long before the six days and long before Adam. There is a time-gap between the first two verses of Genesis.
Genesis narrative that does not contradict the scientific evidence for an Old Earth. Commonly called the "Gap Theory" or Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation, it is a theological interpretation much older than Darwin's Theory of Evolution. It is based on the Scriptural fact that in the second verse of Genesis, the Holy Bible simply and clearly states that the planet Earth was already here (but in a ruined state) before the Divine process described in those six days even begins. Understanding this Biblical mystery begins with the precise wording of this New Testament cross-reference:
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)
Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed. The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man. This invalidates the popular Doctrine of Young Earth Creationism.
The Bible itself provides insight into a great mystery in Earth's natural history at what is known as the Pleistocene - Holocene boundary. Science remains at a loss to definitively explain the Ice Age and the anomaly of the mysterious mega fauna extinctions across the face of the Earth about 12,000 to 10,000 Radio Carbon years ago. Geologic evidence from that period indicates extraordinary global massive volcanism, gigantic tidal waves, seismic activity on a vast scale, and extreme temperature swings on the Earth over a geologically brief period of time. It is no coincidence that the Bible at Genesis 1:2 describes the Earth as flooded, desolate, and in darkness in the timeframe closely corresponding to these catastrophic events in the Earth's natural history. Clearly, these two mysteries are linked.
Why the old "world that then was" ended, and why God made a new world and modern Man, requires a study into the ancient origins of Satan and the Angels. The Earth has an ancient natural history that can be deciphered from the geologic record, but it also has an equally important ancient spiritual history that can only be deciphered from Rightly-Dividing the Holy Bible. Knowledge of both is required to correctly reconcile Geology and the Book of Genesis.www.kjvbible.org...
reply posted on 2-4-2011 @ 05:29 PM by uva3021
reply to post by Faith2011
Actually extinctions from this era are pretty well understood. Extinctions during the end of glaciation periods are very common. And, not so coincidentally, most extinctions of the last 50,000 years happened in regions where upon humans first migrated to (Americas and Oceanic regions), and the animals obviously were incredibly tame. Humans literally beat them to death with a stick, and likely carried with them some deadly diseases. Similar extinctions have been played out in similar ways during the historical eras. Fossil evidence, comparative scenarios, and some basic logic has deduced as much.
This is why Asia and Africa yet have an abundance of larger mammals, while in the Americas and Oceania larger mammals are for the most part extinct. The former has a history of mammals evolving with humans, and the latter were naive to human behavior.
Actually extinctions from this era are pretty well understood. Extinctions during the end of glaciation periods are very common. And, not so coincidentally, most extinctions of the last 50,000 years happened in regions where upon humans first migrated to (Americas and Oceanic regions), and the animals obviously were incredibly tame. Humans literally beat them to death with a stick, and likely carried with them some deadly diseases. Similar extinctions have been played out in similar ways during the historical eras. Fossil evidence, comparative scenarios, and some basic logic has deduced as much.
This is why Asia and Africa yet have an abundance of larger mammals, while in the Americas and Oceania larger mammals are for the most part extinct. The former has a history of mammals evolving with humans, and the latter were naive to human behavior.
sorry about the rant...had a few Jagers....lol
reply posted on 2-4-2011 @ 08:08 PM by MrXYZ
reply to post by lambs to lions
Oh, and just fyi, we didn't evolve from chimps...we share a common ancestor
The theory of evolution doesn't claim we evolved from chimps...
Oh, and just fyi, we didn't evolve from chimps...we share a common ancestor
The theory of evolution doesn't claim we evolved from chimps...
reply posted on 12-4-2011 @ 09:36 AM by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by lambs to lions
You're right...and nobody is saying we evolved from chimps, we just share a common ancestor with them...and frankly, that's not the topic of this thread. This thread is a request for people to show how creationism/intelligent design contributed something (anything) to science.
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
...and the rest is typical conspiracy theory stuff about how there is something being kept from us...from someone who doesn't clearly understand how the scientific community functions. If you knew anything about how scientists work you'd realize that keeping scientific information private is very very difficult.
Anyway, treat this as a general bump: What has creationism/intelligent design contributed to science?
Originally posted by lambs to lions
We didn't evolve from a bunch of feces tossing chimps.
You're right...and nobody is saying we evolved from chimps, we just share a common ancestor with them...and frankly, that's not the topic of this thread. This thread is a request for people to show how creationism/intelligent design contributed something (anything) to science.
There is a big chunk of missing history, and yes it involves a higher power creating us in some way, shape, or form.
[citation needed]
There is an intelligent design.
[citation needed]
...and the rest is typical conspiracy theory stuff about how there is something being kept from us...from someone who doesn't clearly understand how the scientific community functions. If you knew anything about how scientists work you'd realize that keeping scientific information private is very very difficult.
Anyway, treat this as a general bump: What has creationism/intelligent design contributed to science?
reply posted on 12-4-2011 @ 11:01 AM by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by SuperiorEd
Ah, one of these again....and trust me, it fails.
Where is the mention of particle/wave duality in light in Genesis 1 or John 1?
Translation: things were made of the "word of God".
...not definitively agreed upon...and it's a T/F question. 50/50 chance isn't exactly going to impress anyone.
...according to the Bible the stars are small lights set into a physical sphere. Genesis 1
Wow, you're already repeating yourself
...that's the shape of the sky, not the shape of the Earth. The Earth is a circle, not an oblate spheroid according to the Bible.
Hey look, I actually seem to have addressed this not too long ago because blueletterbible.org still has that verse saved in my search history.
...talks about the sun moving.
Last I checked, the Earth moves around the sun, not the other way around.
I'm sorry, but how does that say that light 'travels in paths'? It merely is a question asking where light dwells. And it's not that big of a deal to figure out that darkness is an absence of light rather than a thing in itself.
...no, these passages say that god stretched out the heavens...not that they expanded from their original size. And the heavens being referred to are still something which are locked in a physical dome above the Earth...like a tent.
I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with the north pole? Last time I checked...there's a big snowy place over there, it isn't really empty. And the Earth doesn't 'float freely', it's locked in orbit around the sun by gravity.
Tell that to bacteria. Life isn't in the blood, life isn't even so much of a 'thing'. Sure, blood is useful for those things that have it and those things that have it can't live without it...but they also can't live without their lungs.
It's not that odd for a culture to realize that a person is going to die if they bleed out.
No, that's a ritual for circumcision, not a discovery of coagulation. And circumcision is a dangerous and unnecessary process of genital mutilation which removes functioning nerve tissue.
...I'm sorry, but everyone descends from the same guy if you go back far enough. Of course, that same book also gives a specific time frame...and I've yet to see a study that shows that Jews and Arabs descended from the same individual man at a specific point in the last few thousand years.
...um...this is sort of just a basic observation anyway, isn't it? I've never really heard of any culture anywhere in the world that thinks that gloomy thoughts promote healing or are healthy.
Ugh..not this one again. How does this passage describe the jet stream?
This passage is describing all wind as acting in a circuit for some reason...and it's preceded by the blatantly false passage:
1:5
Condensation is an easy phenomenon to understand...but the full hydrological cycle is not explained in those passages. And Amos 9:6 has nothing to do with that:
No, the word in that passage is wind, not air. And it refers to how strong the wind blows.
Just check out every single translation of the passage.
Do you even know what the anthropic principle is?
Entropy has to do with transfer of energy within a system, not with things falling into decay. Of course, you're a creationist, you don't get what entropy is.
What, because the people of the world saw all the dead bodies? I'm sorry, but there isn't a damn mention of anything near a tv, internet, satellites, or anything else of that nature.
...a coastal people understand currents? Oh wow.
...there aren't.
Job:
...I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with mountains or valleys?
The important part in Jonah is one line:
...bottoms of mountains...so the bottoms of mountains can be underwater...um...nothing to do with underwater mountains though.
And Jonah is the story where a guy didn't suffocate in the stomach of a big fish...
...wow...people will increase in knowledge over time? How is that a prediction of anything? It was someone telling Daniel to hide the scroll because there are 'many' people who travel trying to increase their understanding.
Now let's test the other passages where the Bible gets all sorts of things wrong:
Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)
The Earth is created before the Sun (Genesis 1)
...actually, to just shorten this: The order of events in Genesis 1 is wrong
The Sun and Moon are set in a physical firmament above the Earth (Genesis 1:16-17)
The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)
Global flood (Genesis..mentioned several other times in later books)
Humanity at a time of civilization which would have enabled large scale construction projects shared a single language (Genesis 11)
Diverse language happened instantly rather than gradually (Genesis 11)
The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)
Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)
God's cure for lepers (Leviticus 14:2-52)
Snakebites are cured by a brass serpent on a pole (Numbers 21:8)
Giants (way too many passages Numbers, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, Amos)
Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)
The Sun apparently moves and can be made to stand still so that people can sneak attack others at night (Joshua 10:12-13)
The Earth has pillars...I guess instead of being hung it's placed.(1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6,26:11,38:4-6...actually, a lot of places)
Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)
Either the Earth stopped rotating and moved backward a bit or the Sun moved backward on its own...well, we know what the Bible says about the relationship between the two. (2 Kings 20:11)
The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10...and a lot of other places where it mentions that the Earth is set on foundations)
People think in their heart (Esther 6:6, Isaiah 10:7)
Ostriches are apparently entirely inattentive parents (Job 39:13-16)
The Sun moves around the Earth (Psalms 19:4-6)
Snails melt (Psalms 58:8)
The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)
Lots of fantastical creatures used to exist including satyrs, cockatrices, fiery flying serpents, etc (Isaiah)
The Earth is definitively flat (Daniel 4:10-11, 20)
The stars are tiny objects that can fall out of the sky and be stomped upon (Daniel 8:10)
...and that's without even getting into the New Testament.
Originally posted by SuperiorEd
We can test the Bible on its science.
Ah, one of these again....and trust me, it fails.
Light/Wave duality. Genesis 1 / John 1
Where is the mention of particle/wave duality in light in Genesis 1 or John 1?
All things are made of sub-atomic particles too small to see. Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Translation: things were made of the "word of God".
Time had a beginning. 1 Timothy 1:8-9
...not definitively agreed upon...and it's a T/F question. 50/50 chance isn't exactly going to impress anyone.
The stars are too great in number to count. Genesis 15:5, Jeremiah 33:32, Hebrews 11:12
...according to the Bible the stars are small lights set into a physical sphere. Genesis 1
All matter is made from what is not seen. Hebrews 11:3
Wow, you're already repeating yourself
Shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
...that's the shape of the sky, not the shape of the Earth. The Earth is a circle, not an oblate spheroid according to the Bible.
Hey look, I actually seem to have addressed this not too long ago because blueletterbible.org still has that verse saved in my search history.
The earth moves in a large orbit. Psalms 19:4-6
...talks about the sun moving.
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Last I checked, the Earth moves around the sun, not the other way around.
Light travels in paths, darkness does not. Job 38:19
Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth? and [as for] darkness, where [is] the place thereof,
I'm sorry, but how does that say that light 'travels in paths'? It merely is a question asking where light dwells. And it's not that big of a deal to figure out that darkness is an absence of light rather than a thing in itself.
The Universe is expanded from its original size. Isaiah 42:5, 45:12, 44:24, 48:13, 51:13
...no, these passages say that god stretched out the heavens...not that they expanded from their original size. And the heavens being referred to are still something which are locked in a physical dome above the Earth...like a tent.
The North Pole and the fact that Earth floats freely. Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with the north pole? Last time I checked...there's a big snowy place over there, it isn't really empty. And the Earth doesn't 'float freely', it's locked in orbit around the sun by gravity.
Life is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11-14
Tell that to bacteria. Life isn't in the blood, life isn't even so much of a 'thing'. Sure, blood is useful for those things that have it and those things that have it can't live without it...but they also can't live without their lungs.
It's not that odd for a culture to realize that a person is going to die if they bleed out.
Blood coagulates on the 8th day after birth. Not discovered until 1935. Genesis 17:12
No, that's a ritual for circumcision, not a discovery of coagulation. And circumcision is a dangerous and unnecessary process of genital mutilation which removes functioning nerve tissue.
Jews and Arabs descend from one man. Genesis. Y Chromosomes and DNA testing proves this.
...I'm sorry, but everyone descends from the same guy if you go back far enough. Of course, that same book also gives a specific time frame...and I've yet to see a study that shows that Jews and Arabs descended from the same individual man at a specific point in the last few thousand years.
Laughter can promote healing. Proverbs 17:22
Depression is harmful. Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good [like] a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
...um...this is sort of just a basic observation anyway, isn't it? I've never really heard of any culture anywhere in the world that thinks that gloomy thoughts promote healing or are healthy.
The Jet Stream. Ecclesiastes 1:6 Not discovered until WWII
Ugh..not this one again. How does this passage describe the jet stream?
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
This passage is describing all wind as acting in a circuit for some reason...and it's preceded by the blatantly false passage:
1:5
The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
Hydrological Cycle Job 36:27-28, Amos 9:6
Condensation is an easy phenomenon to understand...but the full hydrological cycle is not explained in those passages. And Amos 9:6 has nothing to do with that:
[It is] he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD [is] his name.
Air has weight. Job 28:25
No, the word in that passage is wind, not air. And it refers to how strong the wind blows.
Just check out every single translation of the passage.
Anthropic Principle Isaiah 45:18, Genesis 1:23-27, Job 40:15-24
Do you even know what the anthropic principle is?
Entropy Psalms 102:25-26, Isaiah 51:6, Hebrews 1:10-11
Entropy has to do with transfer of energy within a system, not with things falling into decay. Of course, you're a creationist, you don't get what entropy is.
Prediction of modern TV, Internet, Satellite. Revelations 11:7-11
What, because the people of the world saw all the dead bodies? I'm sorry, but there isn't a damn mention of anything near a tv, internet, satellites, or anything else of that nature.
Oceans circulate in currents and paths. Psalm 8:8, Isaiah 43:16
...a coastal people understand currents? Oh wow.
There are springs that originate on the ocean floor. Job 38:16, Jonah 2:5-6
...there aren't.
Mountains and valleys on the ocean floor. Job 38:16, Jonah 2:5-6 The Challenger expedition (1873-1876)
Job:
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
...I'm sorry, but what does that have to do with mountains or valleys?
The important part in Jonah is one line:
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains
...bottoms of mountains...so the bottoms of mountains can be underwater...um...nothing to do with underwater mountains though.
And Jonah is the story where a guy didn't suffocate in the stomach of a big fish...
Prediction of mass transportation and exponential expansion of knowledge. The word increase in this verse means multiply and not add to. The word 'watirbeh' "and shall multiply"
Daniel 12:4
4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
...wow...people will increase in knowledge over time? How is that a prediction of anything? It was someone telling Daniel to hide the scroll because there are 'many' people who travel trying to increase their understanding.
Now let's test the other passages where the Bible gets all sorts of things wrong:
Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)
The Earth is created before the Sun (Genesis 1)
...actually, to just shorten this: The order of events in Genesis 1 is wrong
The Sun and Moon are set in a physical firmament above the Earth (Genesis 1:16-17)
The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)
Global flood (Genesis..mentioned several other times in later books)
Humanity at a time of civilization which would have enabled large scale construction projects shared a single language (Genesis 11)
Diverse language happened instantly rather than gradually (Genesis 11)
The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)
Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)
God's cure for lepers (Leviticus 14:2-52)
Snakebites are cured by a brass serpent on a pole (Numbers 21:8)
Giants (way too many passages Numbers, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, Amos)
Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)
The Sun apparently moves and can be made to stand still so that people can sneak attack others at night (Joshua 10:12-13)
The Earth has pillars...I guess instead of being hung it's placed.(1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6,26:11,38:4-6...actually, a lot of places)
Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)
Either the Earth stopped rotating and moved backward a bit or the Sun moved backward on its own...well, we know what the Bible says about the relationship between the two. (2 Kings 20:11)
The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10...and a lot of other places where it mentions that the Earth is set on foundations)
People think in their heart (Esther 6:6, Isaiah 10:7)
Ostriches are apparently entirely inattentive parents (Job 39:13-16)
The Sun moves around the Earth (Psalms 19:4-6)
Snails melt (Psalms 58:8)
The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)
Lots of fantastical creatures used to exist including satyrs, cockatrices, fiery flying serpents, etc (Isaiah)
The Earth is definitively flat (Daniel 4:10-11, 20)
The stars are tiny objects that can fall out of the sky and be stomped upon (Daniel 8:10)
...and that's without even getting into the New Testament.
edit on 12/4/11 by madnessinmysoul because: Fixed bold formatting
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