The 60 Cannons

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by palg1

 

Heres a question for you

It all comes back to the faith in the belief that the Holy Spirit guided those that made these decisions based of course on human interpretation

Do you believe that all of what is included in the bible was "guided" by the holy spirit?

As a matter of fact I do. Just remember that those books were written to to speak to the audience of their day.
They are not meant as examples of actions we should literally follow toward humankind today. They are kept as examples of God's Alliance with man. An Alliance that remains intact even today.

60 cannons but only
1 "n".....canons.
big difference between a cannon and a canon.
(someone has probably already corrected it...so apologies, if so)

reply to post by Akragon


Jesus Christ himself has already stated what the "Canon" is:

LUKE 24:27, 44
"And beginning at MOSES and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

"44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of MOSES, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. "

Law of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deut., Numbers...
Prophets: You know them all, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc...
Psalms: Job, Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon.

Most of the other books are History: Kings, Chronicles, Ruth, Ezra, etc.

So as you can see, the Canon is very much defined. Just because there are other books written during the same time, does not make them canon. So just because you don't know what Biblical Canon is, doesn't mean Christian don't.

LUKE 16:29, 31
"29 Abraham saith unto him, They have MOSES and the prophets; let them hear them.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not MOSES and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded"

reply to post by KJV1611


That is the weakest excuse i've heard for the cannon of the bible...

Jesus did not teach this.... NOT even close!

IT is not right for a deacon to sit in the presence of a presbyter, unless he be bidden by the presbyter to sit down. Likewise the deacons shall have worship of the subdeacons and all the [inferior] clergy.

Church fail

Yep, I've read the canons before. I'm failing to see the issues you have here. I'm part of the Church that follows the canons. Don't think you understand everything or why it is done.

Regarding Chanters and Readers: We have them. It isn't like in protestant churches where everyone sings. A chanter must be able to chant massive amounts of text to the eight tones. It isn't easy and takes years to properly learn. We do have response parts and refrains that (usually a choir- but also the congregation) can sing along with, when it is appropriate. You would actually have to come to observe our services to get an idea of what it is like and why it would be illogical to things another way. One is tonsured a Reader if they can fluently chant the epistle and be clearly understood. It's an important job because these people are conveying important theological concepts to the people.





BTW, I'm 100% certain that worship is a mistranslation. Venerate is likely the proper term. We kiss the hands of our priests and bishops. We're not worshipping them. I even had people bow and prostrate to me at Forgiveness Vespers on Sunday evening. They weren't worshipping me, dearest. You forgot to add the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) to the list because it isn't read in the Church. Deacons and subdeacons assist priests and bishops during liturgy. There is actually a lot for them to do during Divine Liturgy and various services. They wouldn't have time to sit down anyway.

I fail to see the problem with the tavern thing, either. Did you know a door keeper was necessary back in the day? There's a part of the Divine Liturgy where the Deacon will say, "The doors! The doors!" It was to keep anyone who wasn't baptized (including catechumens- as they were instructed during that time) from being around when the Eucharist was consecrated and distributed to the faithful- because Christians were martyred and their services were disrupted during those times.

reply to post by LeSigh


Interesting...

thanks for your clairifcation...

What is the point of chanting verse over and over?

And what is the point of chanting in various tones?

reply to post by Akragon


Were you speaking to me? Talk about reviving dead threads......I thought I put the final nail on this issue with Jesus Christ Himself defining the canon.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Akragon

 

Were you speaking to me? Talk about reviving dead threads......I thought I put the final nail on this issue with Jesus Christ Himself defining the canon.

Perhaps you could show me where Christ himself said this...

CANON XLIV.

Women may not go to the altar.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Interesting...

thanks for your clairifcation...

What is the point of chanting verse over and over?

And what is the point of chanting in various tones?

The point of repetition is so people can hear, understand, and remember. The various tones go with the cycle of the church calendar, and for variety. There are eight tones and each week is a different tone. However, if a martyr is commemorated, then it is always in tone 4. Some troparion and kontakion for various saints and occasions are always in the tone of whatever day they died.

This week is tone 4, btw.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Akragon

 

Were you speaking to me? Talk about reviving dead threads......I thought I put the final nail on this issue with Jesus Christ Himself defining the canon.

Perhaps you could show me where Christ himself said this...

CANON XLIV.

Women may not go to the altar.

Neither can most men. Anyone who goes to the altar must have a valid reason. The altar is behind an iconostasis with doors. The reasoning for women not going into the altar is one taken from Leviticus. People don't like to acknowledge a certain truth: Women menstruate. This has a lot to do with the whole priest situation, like it or not.

Imagine a world with no tampons or other manufactured sanitary napkins. That world existed for women well into the early 19th century. I have researched this, and in many cases, women just bled out. Yes, some used rags or made their own, but many, many, many women used nothing. During their menses, women were usually secluded, and you certainly wouldn't see them touching holy things or participating in any sacraments. Hygiene was not at all like it is today. Women were not allowed to be priests mainly for this reason (my opinion). We still church women forty days after giving birth (prayers upon her returning). It is what it is.

Most of the canons must be understood via the byzantine culture from which they were written. This canon does not forbid a woman from being a prophetess, judge, teacher, preacher, missionary, etcetera.

And, as regards the various books used and not used in the Church, it doesn't mean we don't believe all of them aren't true or valid scripture. We simply don't use (i.e. read/chant) all of them in our services. The Orthodox Church actually has a wider canon of scripture than the Roman Catholic Church and certainly the protestants. We even believe The Protoevangelium of James to be a truthful book, and though we do not consider it scripture, we refer to it often.

reply to post by LeSigh


Again my thanks for your insight..

The chanting brings to mind certian meditation techniques used by monks...

Certian vibrational frequencies corospond to certian chakras and such...

So you actually have an alter hidden away from the public at your church?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Again my thanks for your insight..

The chanting brings to mind certian meditation techniques used by monks...

Certian vibrational frequencies corospond to certian chakras and such...

So you actually have an alter hidden away from the public at your church?

You're welcome. It does kind of remind one of buddhist type chanting, etcetera. There are many similarities in Orthodox Christianity with this type of thing. Well, it isn't a secret where the altar is, and the doors and curtains are opened at various times. The priest will have his back turned to the people, facing the altar. The idea is that he is serving 'on behalf of all and for all'.