The 60 Cannons

reply to post by Hessling


No need to appoligize my friend, im not here to judge you..

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Hessling

 

No need to appoligize my friend, im not here to judge you..

LOL! I fully realize that. (Damn dead brain cells!)

I do confess to getting a bit defensive when it comes to matters of spirituality/religion. It comes from folks on both sides hearing I'm Christian and then questioning my belief system. The majority of Christians think I'm luke-warm, and the others think I believe in every word from the Bible. Neither of which is true!

By the way, I hope that didn't sound like I was accusing you of such. I see this thread as intellectually stimulating more than anything else. Not only do I read each reply, I ponder said reply.

Cheers!

reply to post by Hessling


Many do when you question what they've been taught... They hold tightly to their belief as if its absolute, but they lack understanding. They fear what they do not know, and fear does nothing but blind you...


Read this, just for fun

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Hessling

 

Many do when you question what they've been taught... They hold tightly to their belief as if its absolute, but they lack understanding. They fear what they do not know, and fear does nothing but blind you...

Yup! I think that sums it up very neatly Akragon.

I hope you look for an upcoming thread from me in the next couple of days. I plan on titling it "The Tibetan Goat-herder". I think it will explain the outlook I have when it comes to traditional Christian beliefs.

Thanks for the patience as well as the interest!

reply to post by Hessling


I try to get into most of the religious debates around here, so im sure i'll see it

reply to post by Akragon


Akragon,

Just read the other post you referred to...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which bring me to a bit of a "turning point" in my life as a Christian. A friend of mine many years ago stated that in Ancient Greek, the wording "Fear" and "Reverently Trust" are interchangeable. If one changes the wording to many Bible verses to reflect this difference, the outcome changes dramatically.

I do not want to "fear" the Lord. I want to love Him! Or, rather I want to reverently trust Him. See my point?

Anyhow, I cannot prove the syntax as my Ancient Greek is pretty rusty. (Okay, non-existent!) However, you can see what a profound difference this can have on one's interpretation.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Hessling
reply to post by Akragon

 

Akragon,

Just read the other post you referred to...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which bring me to a bit of a "turning point" in my life as a Christian. A friend of mine many years ago stated that in Ancient Greek, the wording "Fear" and "Reverently Trust" are interchangeable. If one changes the wording to many Bible verses to reflect this difference, the outcome changes dramatically.

I do not want to "fear" the Lord. I want to love Him! Or, rather I want to reverently trust Him. See my point?

Anyhow, I cannot prove the syntax as my Ancient Greek is pretty rusty. (Okay, non-existent!) However, you can see what a profound difference this can have on one's interpretation.

Cheers!

I do not care about the translation of fear, english explains it perfectly...

IF you want to Love him as you said, all you need to do is follow the words of christ. I already posted it for you to read.

Remember God is in all of us, and all things, thus if you show love to everything without prejudice you can not go wrong.

Originally posted by SirClem
reply to post by Akragon

 

just more contradictions that you're finding or the link to the cannons or both!

I'm sure you've heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh? Lots of similarities there with the story of the flood and Noah. Undeniable in fact that the stories came from the same event.

If I can find it, I'll post it later, but there was an awesome thread a while back saying that 'God commanded more murder than Satan' - or something to that effect. It went into great deal (quoting scriptures) where the poster laid out how many murders were ordered or condoned by God. The numbers were in the hundreds of millions if i'm not mistaken.

These simple truths like the few listed above won't stop 'true' believers though. 'You just gotta have faith' seems to be the cure-all to any dissent they receive (and was for me too as a believer). Those non-answers don't cut it for me personally anymore.

Found the old thread I was looking for that speaks about the deaths ordered or condoned by God: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Truly revealing for Christians who refuse to read the Bible for themselves with an open mind..

Originally posted by SirClem

Originally posted by SirClem
reply to post by Akragon

 

just more contradictions that you're finding or the link to the cannons or both!

I'm sure you've heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh? Lots of similarities there with the story of the flood and Noah. Undeniable in fact that the stories came from the same event.

If I can find it, I'll post it later, but there was an awesome thread a while back saying that 'God commanded more murder than Satan' - or something to that effect. It went into great deal (quoting scriptures) where the poster laid out how many murders were ordered or condoned by God. The numbers were in the hundreds of millions if i'm not mistaken.

These simple truths like the few listed above won't stop 'true' believers though. 'You just gotta have faith' seems to be the cure-all to any dissent they receive (and was for me too as a believer). Those non-answers don't cut it for me personally anymore.

Found the old thread I was looking for that speaks about the deaths ordered or condoned by God: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Truly revealing for Christians who refuse to read the Bible for themselves with an open mind..

Wow thats quite the thread lol...

I can tell you one thing though my friend, God did not order anyone to be killed...remember this is mans word not Gods...

Originally posted by Akragon
My question to all you religious people out there is this....

Have you read the Cannons of the bible? You say you know your religion and understand the meaning in the bible, but have you read the Cannons to find out why things were left out...

Very nice list. I've read some of them but didn't look up all of them.

Have you seen the hypocrisy of the church...?

CANON XV.

No others shall sing in the Church, save only the canonical singers, who go up into the ambo and sing from a book.

However, I think what we have going on here is a cultural and language problem. Translated, this says the person who goes up to sing the scripture should be an authorized singer. This is a Jewish tradition -- the "Chazzan" (Cantor) is someone with a beautiful voice who sings the scripture directly from the text. It's considered more inspirational and spiritual than simply reading it and the "designated canonical singer" is someone who knows the text well.

Jewish tradition:
en.wikipedia.org...
Christian tradition:
en.wikipedia.org...(church)

CANON XX.

IT is not right for a deacon to sit in the presence of a presbyter, unless he be bidden by the presbyter to sit down. Likewise the deacons shall have worship of the subdeacons and all the [inferior] clergy.

WHAT?!?! Worship who?

This is a direct translation of the Medieval English. It ain't the same as Modern English. What it really says is this: A deacon is responsible for giving the sermon and reading the Bible to the lower members of the order. In other words, someone who (presumably) has been better educated in the Bible and reads the Bible should be the one delivering the lessons and homilies and teaching those of a rank in the church.

I don't have an issue with the better educated people teaching the less educated.

Perhaps some of you should read this information, you may be supprized at what you find...

They should, but they should find resources that convert this to modern English... otherwise they'll miss the meaning.

thank you for explaining that...you'd think one "of the church" would use more appropreate wording..

There are many biblical contradictions ,But the book of Enoch gave me enough questions to fill a bucket.
The churches ive been to, have been full of mostly hypocrits.The real christlike people ive met have been outside of them not in them.
There is true saints out there, but we will be lucky to meet even one in a lifetime.
I know whats required of me, and i know that i am not exactly 100% at it.But i recognise my mistakes eventually.
The bible is the book that Rome produced, and not the bible of old.
There was this other thing called the council of nicea that also trimmed the bible somewhat....At the behest of charlemaigne.
It can only be hoped that \the Holy Spirit will lead one to understanding,certainly not the church.

great post by a great poster. I would love to get a hold of these books and read them as I would harry potter or Lord of the rings.

reply to post by shamaniski


Which books are you refering to?

All of them. Ive read some of the book of Enoch and find it interesting. Ive never even heard of most of the ones on the list.

reply to post by shamaniski


Here you go...

reluctant-messenger.com...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by palg1

I don't see your point...

Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records

Do you mean these? "Canons of various Christian traditions" (yes I know wiki is not a great source but I can confirm that the info is correct)

I understand that other christian faiths have their ways of determining what is Canon Scripture. None of that changes how they came about including or excluding certain texts. It all comes back to the faith in the belief that the Holy Spirit guided those that made these decisions based of course on human interpretation.

Maybe you should understand the criteria used by those who studied and chose what Canon books were to be included in the bible.

I do, perhaps you should read what was considered Cannon to most churches...

I have, and I continue my 6th year of theological studies at a "Canon" University from the general christian and Catholic perspectives.
What bases your understanding of this? Formal education or personal feelings or hearsay from other sources?
No I'm not throwing that in your face I'm just curious.

PS: Canon universities are those that that meet the requirements of Pius XI’s Ap-ostolic Constitution, Deus Scientiarum Dominus, on the reorganization of Catholic universities. (they hold a Canon Charter)

Originally posted by palg1

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by palg1

I don't see your point...

Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records

Do you mean these? "Canons of various Christian traditions" (yes I know wiki is not a great source but I can confirm that the info is correct)

I understand that other christian faiths have their ways of determining what is Canon Scripture. None of that changes how they came about including or excluding certain texts. It all comes back to the faith in the belief that the Holy Spirit guided those that made these decisions based of course on human interpretation.

Maybe you should understand the criteria used by those who studied and chose what Canon books were to be included in the bible.

I do, perhaps you should read what was considered Cannon to most churches...

I have, and I continue my 6th year of theological studies at a "Canon" University from the general christian and Catholic perspectives.
What bases your understanding of this? Formal education or personal feelings or hearsay from other sources?
No I'm not throwing that in your face I'm just curious.

PS: Canon universities are those that that meet the requirements of Pius XI’s Ap-ostolic Constitution, Deus Scientiarum Dominus, on the reorganization of Catholic universities. (they hold a Canon Charter)

Definately personal opinion based on what i've read... Im no authority on the subject, but i do suspect there was alterations in the bible at some point down the line. Many things just don't add up...If you know what i mean...

Im definately interested in anything you might have to share from what you've learned from your studies

reply to post by palg1


Heres a question for you

It all comes back to the faith in the belief that the Holy Spirit guided those that made these decisions based of course on human interpretation

Do you believe that all of what is included in the bible was "guided" by the holy spirit?

Hi Akragon

I think the whole subject of the composition of the bible, what's in it and what's not such as the Cannons and other books very interesting, especially when they tell a tale the bible has obviously been manipulated to conceal. It effectively muddies the water, as to what was left out politically either on behalf of the church or the ruler. I also feel there is a lack of integrity concerning the veil drawn to hide its pagan roots and associations as well as its links to religions of other distant cultures throughout the world.

It was not till I went to a Theosophical Lodge to hear a talk and wandered into their library that my eyes nearly came out on storks. For the first time I appreciated there were other books, in fact, books from all religions and topics. I thought to myself 'hello, heaven of earth' It was such a pity I had a young family to bring up at that specific time so book heaven had to wait..

Do you think people today have a somewhat 'liberal' idea on what the bible is about? We seem to go as children from drawing pictures of the Ark, Adam and Eve in Eden to being 'parked' in church listening to the same bits over and over again and the New Testament. However its not till you actually read the book itself and think about the actions people took in some of the stories it contains, that its actually a very dark book'. I noticed an earlier poster commented on the contents of Thomas or Philip- and it appeared he/she was shocked at the content, despite attending biblical college where these books I would have thought were essentual reading..


Have you read The Jesus Mystery (I think) its an excellent book because it explains the environment and above all the Jewish Laws which Christ lived unde to a non-Jew. It explains the Temple had its own Police, empowered to stone to death. It was against the Law to teach with the temple unless one was a Rabbi and one could only be a Rabbi if one was married. It also covers Pilot's somewhat inconvenient question, "Are you the King of the Jews"?

I have Bart Ehrman 's book Lost Scriptures which is interesting and I dip into bits. It doesn't include the Book of the Giants from the Dead Sea Scrolls but that is easily googled. What it does contain is something I think will astound many people.

The Acts of Thecla - We find out that Paul had a female companion Thecla. The Act tells us that she was going to be burned at the stake, naked she looked for Paul and saw The Lord sitting there. The fire didn't touch her, rain put it out. The Lord departed into Heaven. I suspect many reading this in Ehrman's book will be shocked and feel somewhat betrayed by the Church. Not only because of the Lord's appearance, miracle and departure into heaven but also because Paul comes over as an austere and almost woman hater. I appreciate that the Councils sat deciding what was in /out perhaps they never presumed the common man would get his hands on what was left out. In one respect some of the books now available may be seen as very damaging to the religious institutions.

I do think many well referenced new books, not from our mainly hide-bound theological academics, are giving us at last a chance to get closer to the truth rather than the dogma. If you wish to read the Covernant between the Israelites and YHWH Christian O'Brian's book The Genius of the Few gives a very good translation - YHWH even impaled them until they agreed to his one-sided contract. ( It appears some neat side-stepping was consistenly a biblical norm till one adds other contempory literature for a fuller perspective!)

I do think that what one regards as sacred spirituality needs to feel right in the heart and have a quality of uncorruptabilty about it. It isn't a trivial part of life. I can't honestly say I find that in the bible alone (MHO).