Revelation and the Apostle John

reply to post by Artanis667


Preterism? Interesting.

Thank you for using a word I had never encountered before in my life. I mean that respectfully.

Consider this...

John was on the island of Patmos when he wrote The Revelation.

Patmos was a prison island...
...inmates were free to roam around the island but not allowed to leave.

Now if you were in these circumstances...
...and you wanted to get out a message to people...
...what would be a good way to do this and get it past the prison guards?

You might do exactly what John did...
...he wrote a compilation of Old Testament scriptures that related to Jesus...
...so the 'churches' he wrote to were comforted knowing the scriptures he referred to...
...but the Roman guards had no idea what it meant.

The Book of Revelation is a compilation of 800+ quotes...
...from the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts...
...of prophecies, types and symbols that were fulfilled in Jesus as Messiah...
...but most people who read them have as much understanding of what they mean...
...as the Roman guards on Patmos.

reply to post by loveguy


great post, and interestingly the queue i sort of needed for the only thing left i had to add to this thread, but ill adress your questions first.

Let's put the bible, the koran, and what's the other one? Yeah, the book of mormon too whatever- let's give them what the Library of Alexandria got. Let's take every book and burn it.

im all for recycling matter but only if we can include paper money on that fire too, although thats another issue.

If you took up writing, what would you write about? Would it be fiction or non?

what else can i write about except for that wich is, even if i dream it or imagine it, if its in me, then it is.
and i don't believe or keep a sense of the concept of fiction, i erased it from my world view.
as i see it, art always imitates life and not the oposite, if i thought of something or imagined it, someone else somewhere surelly must have too.

so call it fiction or not, everything connects to the same root of what it is, therefore fiction became reality the minute we imagined it.

so yes, we create reality, as in reality is whatever we perceive it to be.

If you wanted to leave a message, what would you say in it?

the content of the message is of little relevance, much greater importance is placed on to whom is the message intended for.

Do you know every word beforehand, or as each sentence gets written down? What made you decide to write that message?

sometimes you think of wich words to write, but most times the words just naturally flow.

i have an artistic background and im totally familiar and confortable with the concept of automatic or impulse writing or painting, having it experienced myself often.

i'd say it's 10% conscious mind 90% inspiration

What made you decide to write, or not to write for that matter? What we all share in common is we are all aware of each our own individual identity. I know that I am not you, and I didn't get that from a book. I got that from the whatever it is that lives in me. You've got one of your own, don't you? How would you know, if you didn't know? But you do know, don't you? Ain't it cool! And you didn't get that from reading any books! There might be a war in a real heaven right now for your real soul, are you real? I consider myself a white blood vessel in the body of what we know of our universe. I don't know what I am, but I will stake my entire existence on my entire existence. I love me, and I'm not the only one I know who loves me. Somebody somewhere loves you too, and you know it. What do you consider yourself to be- in this grand scheme of things? Again, if you don't mind me asking.

so as i was gonna add to this thread

books, paintings, any type of expressive and creative work done by man comes mostly from desire and inspiration, the way we shape the world around us.

inspiration means in spiritus, in spirit, yes, apparently we all have it yes!

that much to just say that if a book can contain the word of god, yes, but that god to exist, has to exist inside all of us.

and if most of us say there can only be one god, must also mean there is but one of us.

who am i?

a fragment of myself

its a matter of perspective, some days i wake up and think from wich part of myself i will be looking at myself today.

Originally posted by troubleshooter
Consider this...

John was on the island of Patmos when he wrote The Revelation.

Patmos was a prison island...
...inmates were free to roam around the island but not allowed to leave.

Now if you were in these circumstances...
...and you wanted to get out a message to people...
...what would be a good way to do this and get it past the prison guards?

You might do exactly what John did...
...he wrote a compilation of Old Testament scriptures that related to Jesus...
...so the 'churches' he wrote to were comforted knowing the scriptures he referred to...
...but the Roman guards had no idea what it meant.

The messages to the churches would have ment nothing to Roman gaurds. They are considerably specific and certainly not all drawn from OT scripture. Prior scripture is used to remind those people it was addressed to and further the future generations who have believed. You can read the same scripture over and over but soon forget it (or soon forget it's application). It is a blessing and a gift to read it again and remember what it's there for. Even though we read the bible, there are many things that elude us and we forget when conducting ourselves from day to day. It's very easy to forget but when you are reminded, how glorious it is, most often very timely (syncronistic).

The Book of Revelation is a compilation of 800+ quotes...
...from the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts...
...of prophecies, types and symbols that were fulfilled in Jesus as Messiah...
...but most people who read them have as much understanding of what they mean...
...as the Roman guards on Patmos.

I've never done a study on how many quotes were used in Revelations but I do know that the churches they were addressed to, near the beginning verses of Revelations, would have been much more significant to them at the time due to their current condition and actions. As later believers, the messages are still relevent but moreso as reminders of our potential pitfalls and what to avoid in coming days.

I do agree though, most people with a voice in the christian community are just as ignorant as the Roman gaurds on Patmos and it's a very sad thing indeed.

reply to post by Hoosyourdaddyo


Did God steer the discussions at The Council of Laodicea as well then?

Have you ever read the Cannons of the bible? That might make you think otherwise..

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
reply to post by loveguy

 

great post, and interestingly the queue i sort of needed for the only thing left i had to add to this thread, but ill adress your questions first.

Wow,
I knew when I was compiling my previous post, I 'd be learning something new from you...but had no clue what.

I really appreciate what you said in your reply. Especially that bit about cash.

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
inspiration means in spiritus, in spirit, yes, apparently we all have it yes!
that much to just say that if a book can contain the word of god, yes, but that god to exist, has to exist inside all of us.
and if most of us say there can only be one god, must also mean there is but one of us.
who am i?
a fragment of myself
its a matter of perspective, some days i wake up and think from wich part of myself i will be looking at myself today.

Sorry if this seems as an intrusion or stepping into a conversation I shouldn't but I have a response concerning this last part. I feel most appropriately to start with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

You're right, God does exist in every one of us. We are creatures created in His image, Love. That however, does not mean that we are our own god, or gods to others. Humanity understands what Love is and hopefully strive to follow those guidelines, the bible makes it much more clear to our logic based (or emotional based) minds what Love is, exactly. The problem comes in when man believes what he's doing is right, when in fact it is wrong. For the most part, we know what is right and wrong because we were made in the image of Love. The problem arises when we justify unsavory actions, transgressions of love from one human to another and believe it's right / ok. In man's worldly eyes, his / her actions are good (for the most part). When compared to the law of Love (God) and reflect our own dailiy actions to it, we see we fall incredibly short to perfection (perfect Love)

"If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."
(1 Corinthians 13:3-10)

It all really comes down to unconditional Love. That's all the bible premotes, the truth will set you free! All a sin is, is a transgression of Love between you and another, thus being against God since Love desires you to Love one another. God is Love. Man cannot create his own definition for Love else it becomes the perception of an individual and will falter. Love exists and it's being cannot be changed

considering how many holocaust authors have been discredited as having NOT EVEN BEEN THERE
I'd say that is continuation of a trend that has its roots deep in history

Just look at the way christianity treats the book of Enoch.
also
I just heard on the radio that the mayan calander makes two predictions on the big stone 5000 year old calender
1492 when they predicted the new world would becopme totally changed
and 1520 when the aztecs would be toppled or destroyed..the year Cortez arrived there and conqured them.

how come the one and only Christain God who created all and knows all, doesn't do dates like that?

reply to post by Artanis667


If I had better typing skills...

Nothings wrong with me if something you said in your post???

My left eye teared first, then the right.

Thank you

Originally posted by Danbones
considering how many holocaust authors have been discredited as having NOT EVEN BEEN THERE
I'd say that is continuation of a trend that has its roots deep in history

Just look at the way christianity treats the book of Enoch.

This fact is really pretty disgusting if they wrote it as non-fiction. Who knows what happened at the German concentration camps, but the fact remains that mass murder did happen. These authors were in it for the money.

The book of Enoch is interesting. It does say in the bible though that there will be a "great delusion" sent apon the world, one that most will follow. It doesn't specify what but if the book of Enoch were to be included, I suspect this great delusion wouldn't be much of a delusion. I could be totally off base with that but I believe if the delusion has anything to do with aliens, the book of Enoch may not have been so far off after all. Remember, maybe 10 years ago most "christians" who would have come up on aliens would have been under the impression God does not exist immidiately.

Originally posted by loveguy
reply to post by Artanis667

 

If I had better typing skills...

Nothings wrong with me if something you said in your post???

My left eye teared first, then the right.

Thank you

Huh??? Lol, was this to me? I didn't mean to offend you if I did, I didn't direct any of my commentary toward you Maybe im totally off base, I just seen at the top of ur post "reply to artanis667"

reply to post by Danbones


I ain't at all well versed in the bible, and even less familiar with the book of Enoch. That's my fault for being lazy.

I do remember reading somewhere though that when you practice divination, it can be a real civilization ender sorta thing. Going along with the bible theme.

I haven't been introduced to a Mayan lately. Well, except for the tribal elder on youtube...he was talking about 2012 and basically that for three days, the light of the sun will not be viewable upon the Earth, and that after the three days are over the new age will begin. Something along those lines anyhow.

reply to post by Artanis667


No, you made no offense, but the contrary.

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
reply to post by Artanis667

 

so the word of god written by men, ok. i can grasp that concept.

the issue is you are still reading their bible, custom fitted to serve their interests.

it would be one thing if you were talking about gnostic text or early christian threads, but no, you are basing this solely on the forgery and watered down version we now know as the bible.

i respect your beliefs, but please spare me from reading that a book written by men is god's word.

unless we all can be god too.

The Bible was writin by God through man so it is his word, also you say can we be god too, that question gets a little dicey in terms of what you mean by that, God says be one with him so yea in that sense we can be god but to not be one with god and claim your thee god is more along the lines of Anton Lavey's concept which i personally don't subscribe too....

Originally posted by Hoosyourdaddyo
So as you know, the Apostle John wrote the book of revelation, toward the end of his life, while living in a cave in seclusion. While some consider his writings to be the delusional ranting’s of a madman (my 70 year old mother told me that nuns in her parochial school taught her this), many have taken his vision to be a literal account of the end of the World.

So let's assume that his writings were the literal description of what he saw when he travelled forward into time to see the things he had. Many of the beasts and visions he describes are fantastical and bizarre, yet in the eyes of a first century man, our helicopters, tanks and jet fighters must have looked very, very weird to him. So, as many assume, he's describing things that are contemporary to our times, in terms that he understands from his times.

So let's further stipulate that we are living in the end times, and John is now perhaps among us, observing things through television, the internet or through any number of means in our hyper-connected World. He's seeing the earthquakes, the deaths of masses of birds and fish. The starvation, the wars and rumors of wars, all the things that are described in his book of Revelation that before now had never been so prominent in the Worlds consciousness, with such quickness and ubiquity.
Is John reading ATS? Is he watching videos on Youtube and other sites? Is he aware of the effect that his book has had in shaping people’s opinions of the events of these days? Is it a paradox that he's aware of what's happening in our time and our World, and is planning on writing this all down so he can warn the World, when we have already read his words of warning?

Wrap your heads around that one. John got a glimpse of the future- which may very well be our present (or near future) and wrote a book describing what he saw. A book we are keenly aware of, and many are using as a guide to the end days. There's even some speculation that some leaders, politicians and influence holders have decided to use Revelation as a playbook, so they can see the return of Christ.

I'm not sure what these days and events are in the light of his writings, but I can imagine him watching this all go down. Would make for one hell of a movie, wouldn't it?

edit on 19-3-2011 by Hoosyourdaddyo because: k

No one knows for sure what John wrote the Book of Revelation. There are varying opinions among Bible scholars.

Originally posted by Hoosyourdaddyo
So let's assume that his writings were the literal description of what he saw when he travelled forward into time to see the things he had.

I would say they were nothing of the kind, because about 90% of what is written in Revelation is symbolism.
For example, the "beast from the sea" in ch13 is a deliberate echo of the "beasts from the sea" in Daniel ch7, which represent kingdoms, so people would understand them as having the same meaning.
The "lamb" in ch5 is symbolism from John's gospel; it has horns, because horns are an Old Testament symbol of power. It has seven horns, because seven is a symbolic number relating to God.
And so on, and so on.

For a full discussion of the various symbols, I recommend;
Summary of Revelation threads

If ideas are being presented to the writer's mind as symbols, there is no need for him to be literally "seeing" future events, so the issue of "misunderstanding modern technology" doesn't arise.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Thanks for the link, should make for some great reading.

reply to post by Artanis667


How can Lucifer spread lies and tales based on Jesus when the Greek myth revolving around a God impregnating a virgin woman and creating a demigod who had 12 followers and performed miracles was being told by Greeks wherever they traveled at least several hundred years if not longer BEFORE the birth of Christ?

All of this has been proven by scholars and people who studied historical texts for decades.

As for the fall of Rome, of course Revelations doesn't fit with the historical version. That's because when John wrote Revelations, the empire was still in full force. It'd be like an ATS member writing a book about the downfall of the USA and then the actual fall of it happening centuries later and not exactly fitting with what was written by the ATS member.

I have no doubt you'll throw a lot of scripture or "facts" according to your fictional god at me but I know the truth as I have presented it in my two posts on this thread and therefore, have no more need to continue.