Questions the Skeptics, Media and Government(s) Can’t Answer.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece

Yes, I'm sure you can locate a Bloomberg quote from a Vienna-based nuclear engineer who spent 30 years with DOE that "apparently" explains everything. If you like, an entire commission can be created to explain anything from the assassination of a president to 19 Arabs' terrorist attack against a country that spends more on "intelligence" and "defense" than the rest of the world combined.

Actually I know about diesel powered generators because I worked in construction, as a plumber and we built power plants and RO plants, etc.

We used generators all the time, not to mention that the big generators in the power plants were essentially the same thing on a larger scale.

Unless you are denying the tsunami hit there, you dont need to be a genius to figure out what happened to those generators. You just need a basic understanding of what a generator is, and that they dont work when submerged in salt water.

reply to post by bhornbuckle75


That is a good idea. With that solution there is no more problem. It would take more wires but it would still work.

reply to post by monkeyman03


Hi monkey

reply to post by Homesick


Did you just want to say hi?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Funny thing is, have they even attempted to repair the generators? In essence a generator isn't to complicated, and I myself don't believe simply being dunked in some water is going to "destroy" them.I know from personal experience that engines are alittle more resilient then that, and find it hard to believe that if they werent drained properly, oil changed, etc, that not one of them would fire right back up.

And why wouldn't (if Japan really has none left) some other country step up, and offer them some of their own backup systems? Maybe this has already been discussed, so don't totally step on me if it has.

maybe if a nuke plant is next to the sea they should have used the power from a diesel submarine welded to the side of the building.

I'm only half-joking.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


The reason we make so many things from the byproducts of oil refinery to produce gasoline, is because if the oil industry didn't find uses for all of these waste products, then they would have to pay for their disposal.

All products produced from oil have alternative sources, that would be more expensive, but also more labor intensive, probably much more friendly to small businesses, and definitely more friendly to farmers, which would be better for the average person. Read up on how Cuba solved their food crisis after the collapse of the USSR, when they found how inefficient and destructive factory farming techniques are.

Plastic is made to be disposable, because we have more of it than we are capable of handling, which is why we have a floating continent in the middle of the pacific. Most third world countries are inundated with plastic.

We would be far better off if our world economy hadn't been built around oil, but it has been, because oil is incredibly profitable for those who control it.

reply to post by Goob07


They did try to repair them, and I am sure other nations would have been happy to lend them generators.

The problem is that you have to get them there.

The tsunami made travel very difficult, and even under ideal circumstances moving generators into place and hooking them up is time consuming. I would not be surprised if one of the things that got them in trouble was over confidence they could get those generators back online, which then delayed other strategies for dealing with the overheating issue.

Im no mechanic, but my mechanic co-workers said diesel engines were fussy and a bitch to get working if something other than diesel got into their fuel system. (They mostly said this so we would not accidentally gas up the diesel engines by mistake.)

But I think thats something that is hard to understand if you dont work in plants, is just how much time it takes to do things like repair generators, move equipment, and then on top of that have the debris and damage of a tsunami to work around and deal with?

I really feel for them. Clearly it would have been smart to some tsunami proof generators, but they just didnt plan for it.

Originally posted by poet1b

We would be far better off if our world economy hadn't been built around oil, but it has been, because oil is incredibly profitable for those who control it.

I dont disagree. I just think we need to deal with the reality that we ARE dependent on it for many things, and its going to be a process to extricate ourselves from that web. And with the food production issue, I wonder if we can at this point.

We are talking about some very old equipment. If the pump rooms had been flooded by the tsunami wave, then there is a good chance that none of the pumps and their supporting equipment are functionable. The force of the water in the those waves was immense, and there is a good chance almost everything was flooded out.

I wonder how much continuous heat this equipment has been exposed to. I also wonder how much radiation exposure this equipment has been exposed to. The radiation is extremely hard on everything.

With the limited time window workers have to do anything, it sounds like an impossible task. About the time each worker gets his bearings, his time will be up, never to return. There won't be a lot of time for a turnover to the next work struggling under the large suit they have to wear. From my understanding, it is extremely difficult to do anything in those suits.

I imagine they would have to meg the circuits to check for any shorts, because with 12,000 volt buses, if that is what they are using, or higher, shorts mean disaster. Even doing the minimum under emergency procedures, there would be a great deal of things that have to be done. What are the odds that they have a plan for the plant being hit by a tsunami?

Small note on the Diesel Generator theory. They do not produce in any way industrially Portable Diesel Generator Sets, that can drive twenty four 12KVe Electric motors, on the entire globe.

Not even one to my knowlegde.....

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I used to think the same way, until I read about what they did in Cuba to deal with their food shortages.

I think the worlds population would be far better off without oil domination. Control of oil, and our dependency on oil, is the greatest weapon in the arsenal of the PTB. Our love for the automobile has turned us into their slaves.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

*read above, ya i guess you have a point, but you think, withing this age, some sort of backup power would have been designed if there ever was some situation like this to occur.

And your co-workers are correct, they are alot fussier then there gas cousins, but still, they are tightly sealed and are built to keep debris out. I know water can still penetrate into the exhaust, but sometimes you get lucky, theres nothing saying (if done properly) the bulk of the water can be drained from the system, and they can be restored to working order, but usually in situations such as this that luck is not existent.

I was actually hoping a mechanical or civil engineer would have poked his head in and said this, but I will attempt it with my limited knowledge. (need I refer to the previously stated disclaimer).

Even if for some reason the elite decided to say OK ok, guys we do this. And if you could even find enough Gensets of Industrial Quality available. And if you could get them there, you would have to mount them on stable surfaces. That doesn't mean parking lots. That means Steel reinforced concrete. The Steel reinforcement being ReBar. And it doesn't grow with water. Also if you could throw a ReBar grid down for the pad of the Genset, some poor bloke would still have to go out there and either build or secure some sort of form for the quick setting cement....

36 hours later you can think about setting the skid and running cables...

One 12KVe motor, one really big Gas Turbine.....Dreaming again..

reply to post by rougeskut


I agree. You can tell most people here do not work with their hands, because their expectations about how quickly things can be done is WAAAAAAYYYYYYY out of line.

And they keep forgetting, a tsunami hit. All your spare parts, your tools, all kinds of stuff could be missing, destroyed, etc. We dont know what kind of a mess they had to work with. But one could guess that if it took out all their generators, it probably means a lot of their other stuff got hit/washed away in the wave too.

And building and resetting big generators isnt just concrete and rebar, but the trucks and equipment to haul it, lay it, you are hoping there IS concrete near that wasnt just turned into a big lump in the wave. Its just not as easy as "fix it" or "get another one" when your whole world got washed away.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Thepreye

 

What part of " I wouldnt rule it out until the costs have been calculated" are you disagreeing with?

I don't think the authorities take our emotional fears of cancer or birth deformations seriously when they plan to build a nuke power generation plant, I don't think any fearful emotions are considered when working out the balance of risks from one method of power generation to another, you were implying by your words, to my understanding, that irrational fears were given too much credence when considering options, I say these fears are not addressed at all and "they" just go along with the plan.

I give you Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Sellafield and Fuk-u-shima as examples of poor risk assessment and poxy planning by those who are meant to be experts who consider all the options and potential costs. If in their considerations they find a risk that puts potential costs over budget they forget it because something about nukes fits the plan they work to.

reply to post by Thepreye


Its all good. You dont like nuclear energy.

Totally fine with me. Im not here to defend nuclear energy. I really dont care enough. My point is purely, "not liking it" is not the same as a reasoned judgment of its relative safety compared to other energy sources.

"I dont like it, and I dont think they care about our fears" is opinion. And you are totally entitled to your opinion. Im not going to argue against it. So, peace.

Dont move downwind of a nuclear reactor and hopefully you will be fine.

reply to post by rougeskut


From my understanding they already have portable generators in place. I am not sure about this, but from my understanding, they would use generators mounted on skids, so that they wouldn't need a concrete platform in place. Bring the equipment in with helicopters.

The biggest problem is working in radiation protection suits.

reply to post by poet1b


You have any images of the generators in question? That would tell you a lot right there. I dont know anything specific about the type of generators they needed for that plant , but Rogueskut makes it sound like they needed a pretty specific type, which he seemed to have some familiarity with.

We always had to mount big generators on reinforced concrete. But size would matter, and it would also matter in terms of whether or not helicoptering them in was feasible.

Liquid sealed power distribution systems are extremely expensive to build.

With pluming, you only have to contain the water, in pipes.

With electrical power, enclosures must be built to keep water out, but there must be doors for access. The biggest chink in the armor is where the conductors must penetrate the enclosures. There must be insulators in place, and with voltage potentials of 12 kv or greater, those insulators are extremely critical. Inevitably, they must rely on sealants of some kind. Those sealants are exposed to continuous heat which leads to break down.

From my experience, the pump rooms were probably not built to withstand the forces of a tsunami flood.