Oh Muslims, how much longer?

I don't even know where to begin...everything in your topic is just wrong. The sources you provided are based on here say, lies, assumptions and or rumors. But I do admire that you put what appears to be a great deal of time and effort into it.

Originally posted by DutchBigBoy
So all Muslims are crying out to Ummah. "Why not Allah?" you can ask, but they cry out to Allah for Ummah.

"All" Muslims? Maybe this was just a general statement, I don't know, but surely "all" Muslims is a huge exaggeration.

and what we hear from the main line media is that they want Democracy.

You just provided the reason(s) why this entire topic is flawed. Main line media cannot possibly be a source for retrieving facts, not in this situation or any other, if anyone uses main stream media as a fact based organisation; they will never see, nor understand the truth. Main stream media exaggerates and up plays all of their stories, I suppose if they didn't, they wouldn't be as entertaining and therefore would not have such a large audience.

What we the Western World doesn't grasp is that the Arab's understanding of Democracy is not the same as theirs. The short answer to what they want is a 'fast track' to Islamic Sharia (Muslim Law). You see, they don't consider that to be a Dictatorship. They believe that to be the will of their 'god' Allah. But if you were to believe Obama or Clinton, you'd think that the Muslim Arab world is about to turn into a wonderful, peace loving Democratic and free society. Nothing could be further from the truth than that. They want to establish a global Islamic rule called a 'Caliphate', and this does not just take in the Arab region - but the entire world. If you want to appreciate what Democracy means to the Arab World, take a close look at Gaza. You've heard it said that 'a vote does not a democracy make'. Yet there so much more to it than that.

True, you are right about that first sentence. These particular Arab nations which are demonstrating desire a new regime; this is what is being labeled as "democracy" by them. Most Arabs will tell you they'd like to see "democracy" in the middle east, but not a westernized middle east. You would have to ask them to elaborate on what they mean by democracy to understand. They want better laws, a better standard of living, higher wages, lower costs of living ( to include foods and goods) more jobs and the removal of old laws such as the emergency law and they want justice in the legal system whereby many of their friends and families are in jail without a "fair trial". I could go into better detail but it would get very lengthy, so I'm trying to shorten it up as much as I can.

As for the rest of your paragraph, I suggest you go a little further in the right direction with your sources. No one over in the middle East is screaming "we want Sharia" So I'm puzzled as to where you're getting "this" particular piece of information from. As far as Sharia law goes..Muslims generally do not have a problem with it, however in a few middle eastern nations such as Jordan, certain portions of the Sharia law have been amended because "they" see the unfairness therein. No Jordanian, Egyptian, Libyan or (few) Syrians want their nation to become another Iran and this is a FACT. Nor do they want an America or Europe, they want something new, something just and they want to ability to be able to "decide" or vote on who is their leader. I see nothing wrong with this at all.

As for your "global Islamic rule" statement....that is far fetched and adding to the Islamaphobia already very present in the West.

Gaza?! that is a whole nother can of worms that surely cannot be mixed with these already. My husband is Palestinian, we live in the middle east, if you want facts, then I think I can partly qualify to provide them based on what I literally see and know in my own country. Not based on what someone hears and runs with in another country.

Originally posted by Maymunah
I don't even know where to begin...everything in your topic is just wrong. The sources you provided are based on here say, lies, assumptions and or rumors. But I do admire that you put what appears to be a great deal of time and effort into it.

All links are provided

"All" Muslims? Maybe this was just a general statement, I don't know, but surely "all" Muslims is a huge exaggeration.

maybe exaggerated a bit but it is a common thing for people to use bigger words to make it more clear to others


I do not use the MSM as my only source. I know the media can't be trusted

You just provided the reason(s) why this entire topic is flawed. Main line media cannot possibly be a source for retrieving facts, not in this situation or any other, if anyone uses main stream media as a fact based organisation; they will never see, nor understand the truth. Main stream media exaggerates and up plays all of their stories, I suppose if they didn't, they wouldn't be as entertaining and therefore would not have such a large audience.

indeed they do

True, you are right about that first sentence. These particular Arab nations which are demonstrating desire a new regime; this is what is being labeled as "democracy" by them. Most Arabs will tell you they'd like to see "democracy" in the middle east, but not a westernized middle east. You would have to ask them to elaborate on what they mean by democracy to understand. They want better laws, a better standard of living, higher wages, lower costs of living ( to include foods and goods) more jobs and the removal of old laws such as the emergency law and they want justice in the legal system whereby many of their friends and families are in jail without a "fair trial". I could go into better detail but it would get very lengthy, so I'm trying to shorten it up as much as I can.

The caliphate is well known to you I guess. Democracy is p.e. freedom of speech. The new Egyptian cabinet approved a decree-law that criminalises strikes, protests, demonstrations and sit-ins that interrupt private or state owned businesses or affect the economy in any way.
New Egyptian anti-protest law

As for the rest of your paragraph, I suggest you go a little further in the right direction with your sources. No one over in the middle East is screaming "we want Sharia"

So I'm puzzled as to where you're getting "this" particular piece of information from. As far as Sharia law goes..Muslims generally do not have a problem with it, however in a few middle eastern nations such as Jordan, certain portions of the Sharia law have been amended because "they" see the unfairness therein. No Jordanian, Egyptian, Libyan or (few) Syrians want their nation to become another Iran and this is a FACT. Nor do they want an America or Europe, they want something new, something just and they want to ability to be able to "decide" or vote on who is their leader. I see nothing wrong with this at all.

You indeed gave the countries where the sharia law is least wanted
Poll to sharia law

here are some other examples
Rally in the U.K.
Rally in the USA
Australia
source from the sun
Muslim brotherhood

As for your "global Islamic rule" statement....that is far fetched and adding to the Islamaphobia already very present in the West.

It is not strange that western nation don't want the sharia law within their borders
here are some video's

Gaza?! that is a whole nother can of worms that surely cannot be mixed with these already. My husband is Palestinian, we live in the middle east, if you want facts, then I think I can partly qualify to provide them based on what I literally see and know in my own country. Not based on what someone hears and runs with in another country.

I am not islamaphobic but Sharia law is not comforting me.

For your concideration:

a) Most Muslims support Islam, and all Muslims enable Islam.

b) Islam and Sharia law cannot be separated, for Sharia law is the expression of the Do's and Don't's of Mohammed, who is so important to Muslims they want to kill people who they think insult him.

c) Aside from outrageously regressive and anti-liberal laws for Muslims, Sharia law also envisions and mandates the conquest and submission of all non-Muslims and the killing of those who refuse to submit (preceded by the killing of many as a tactic of terror to bring about strategic advantage), however long that may take, and accomodating situations of temporary political and military weaknesses through the allowance of deceptive strategies -- which include lying about (c) by denying such a desideratum exists in Islamic law.

d) Any popular movement among Muslims therefore augurs more Islam, and because of a-c, that is obviously bad for non-Muslims.

e) The "freedom" which all these revolting Muslims may seem to be seeking is not freedom from the anti-liberal totalitarianism of Islam, but a freedom from the tin-pot tyrants who, in their various deals with the Western Devil in this modern era of Western global hegemony, have in one way or another delimited the scope and practice of Sharia law. These revolting Muslims are merely jumping out of the frying pan of the tin-pot dictators, into the fire of Islamic totalitarianism.

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


The problem here is that Islam is stuck about 200 years behind every other nation, not their fault though. If you look at Christian nations they had no opposition for sometime so the religion grew and matured. Islam was squashed a few times but the numbers still grew. They didn't have time to mature because any Muslim nation wanting to move forward was squashed and attacked.

America has been a Christian nation so Christianity is safe there. Islam has been in areas that have been ravaged by wars such as the Asia and Africa. It would see anytime they try to move ahead they get forced behind. Iraq was bombed back to the 19th century, twice, Iran was overthrown not too long ago and on the verge soon, Libya, Yemen, Tunisia, Syria is in revolt, Pakistan is getting bombed by drones, Afghanistan is occupied, and the rest of Africa is in turmoil. Any nation that doesn't want to give their oil becomes victim to this game.

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


You did provide several links and sources; but you are using those as "good as gold" per say. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to do some extensive research I'm going to look at all aspects of what I'm researching. It appears to me, you are only seeking the negative aspect. Am I wrong for stating this? I can go now, spend a long time doing it, and find the other side of your argument with links, videos and sources, then we'll both be wondering....who is right, who is wrong?

Muslims, on a community scale are not trying to enforce Sharia in their nation much less in the west, generally speaking no matter where a "true" Muslim resides they follow Sharia guidelines in their household. More or less, a true Muslim follows Al Quran and strong Hadiths, their faith is their way of life.

Have you read about Sharia Law? I'm not really bothered by it to be honest. If I respect the laws, be they Sharia or any other national laws, then what's there to fear? What about Sharia is not comforting to you?

Originally posted by Maymunah

"All" Muslims? Maybe this was just a general statement, I don't know, but surely "all" Muslims is a huge exaggeration.

You just provided the reason(s) why this entire topic is flawed. Main line media cannot possibly be a source for retrieving facts, not in this situation or any other, if anyone uses main stream media as a fact based organisation; they will never see, nor understand the truth. Main stream media exaggerates and up plays all of their stories, I suppose if they didn't, they wouldn't be as entertaining and therefore would not have such a large audience.

Above you criticized the poster for making a generalization about Muslims and Islam, then you make this comment.

Muslims, on a community scale are not trying to enforce Sharia in their nation much less in the west, generally speaking no matter where a "true" Muslim resides they follow Sharia guidelines in their household. More or less, a true Muslim follows Al Quran and strong Hadiths, their faith is their way of life.

I'm not sure who you are, and why you think that your "opinion" is more valid. You seem to be attacking the sources yet you fail to provide any yourself.

reply to post by deessell


I didn't criticize the poster as you can see in my comment regarding the "All Muslims" statement they made.

Then...I did say "I" was generalizing myself when I wrote "in general"

I also wrote " I can go now, spend a long time doing it, and find the other side of your argument with links, videos and sources, then we'll both be wondering....who is right, who is wrong? "

And hey...I'm not sure "who you are either" just coming in this topic to pick at a few of my comments without providing anything conducive to this subject

"do the protesters in the middle east want Caliphate"

I typed this into Google and the first pages are:

ww.westernjournalism.com/radicals

www.foxnews.com

In Egypt Protests, Beck Sees ... A New Islamic Caliphate

Doomsday Prophecies at Fox News Regarding Egypt's Protests -

'High Capacities': If Iran Calls For a Unified Muslim World

If these are accurate sources...then for sure we are doomed for intelligence and truth. And the videos the OP provides are propaganda.

As far as Sharia, that's self explanatory and anyone can read about it online and make their own person opinion about it, I like oranges some people don't, to each their own. Most of the nations in the middle east do not even enforce the Sharia Laws. Personally, and this is totally "personal" it seems this thread is just adding to the propaganda and fear already very present in the West, when the West ought to be looking at their own rights and laws and questioning them, not looking off at other nations and speculating out of fear and worry that their "comfort zone" will be uprooted.

reply to post by Maymunah

Most of the nations in the middle east do not even enforce the Sharia Laws.

But some do, and I am afraid the number may grow, if true democracy would be established in these countries following the revolutions. The poll shows that the support for such extreme laws is there, contrary to the "peaceful majority, extremist minority" paradigm.

It took a while but i have made a list of countries that use a strict form of sharia law.

Countries using strict forms of Sharia Law include:

Death for Blasphemy:

1. Afghanistan
2. Bahrain
3. Iran
4. Mauritania
5. Oman
6. Pakistan
7. Yemen
8. Saudi Arabia
9. Gaza


Imprisonment for Blasphemy:

1. Algeria
2. Bangladesh
3. Egypt
4. Iraq
5. Kuwait
6. Libya
7. Malaysia
8. Maldives
9. Morocco
10. Somalia
11. Tunisia
12. United Arab Emirates


Nations that include some level of Sharia (leniant sentences for honour killings, ban on new churches, floggings, etc):

1. Indonesia (Flogging, Caning; Sharia applied strictly in Aceh province)
2. Turkey (Restrictions on alcohol)
3. Brunei (Caning, Alcohol is illegal)
4. Jordan (2 years or less for honour killings)
5. Eritrea (Girls as young as 8 can be married, spousal rape is not recognized)
6. Syria (1 year or less for honour killings)
7. Djibouti (Sharia law regarding divorce)
8. Chechnya (Modest dress enforced, Alcohol and gambling suppressed by local authorities)
9. Niger (girls can be married off before they reach puberty)
10. Nigeria (Sharia is enforced in the northern states)
11. Kenya (Ad Hoc Sharia enforced in the east near the border with Somalia)
12. Gambia (Sharia courts decide all family matters, including for non-Muslims)
13. Qatar (public consumption is illegal during Ramadan, Alcohol heavily restricted, blood money acceptable punishment for murder, "kafala" law which is also shared by all Gulf states but Bahrain is technically slavery)

Most "Western" nations also have parallel Sharia legal systems (for example in Canada polygamy is widely practiced and authorities look the other way, Imams refusing to condemn or work to stop it). Sharia finance is also practiced in many nations around the world. Many other Islamic nations that do not apply Sharia (such as Azerbaijan, Albania, Bosnia, Uzbekistan, and Tajikstan) have large portions of their population who do want it applied or who actively seek to abide by it extra-legally.

And again the Muslims go wild and murder 8 maybe 12 innocent UN employees because of burning a Koran which was done more then a month ago in America by a reverent. You can read that in this thread So one American did something and now the entire US is a demon, devil or what the heck you want to name it.

Maybe I am in eyes of the beholder an islamaphobe. But give me 1 good reason why these innocent employees have to die.

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


How can I put this....

True Muslims would never kill innocent people, not for burning the Quran or anything else. Simply because someone comes in the name of [insert name of here] does not mean they are what they are coming in the name of. The way I see the world today, is that the enemy of mankind, the devil, wickedness etc...is planted everywhere, you can find evil among Religions, Science, Education, Government, Medicine and in no system at all, it's always there, preying on mankind in some way, shape or form. Either it is getting you through, murderous acts, or deception, or unfairness, or treachery etc..and it either get's you physically, mentally or even spiritually. Look at the broader, grander view of the world and what is happening over all and you will see the bigger picture, maybe we have to adjust our lenses a bit, but you can see it.

All I can say is don't toss the baby out with the bath water. Conquer above all these horrendous acts by seeking the good, focusing on where righteousness resides. It's so easy to get swept away in the current of wickedness these days, surely we can all attest to that! But when our eyes fail to see the good; then the enemy of the above world branches, so to speak, have gotten us too.

There are good and TRUE Muslims who are entirely against such acts, I promise you! The unfortunate thing is, goodness these days is like looking for a needle in a hay stack, especially if your hay stack consist of the "media" which I forgot to include in the above systems as number 1 for promoting evil, lies and disruption.

Originally posted by Maymunah
There are good and TRUE Muslims who are entirely against such acts, I promise you! The unfortunate thing is, goodness these days is like looking for a needle in a hay stack, especially if your hay stack consist of the "media" which I forgot to include in the above systems as number 1 for promoting evil, lies and disruption.

Indeed there are! Try talking to a secular Turk at the moment and feel their pain as their country moves towards an Islamic state. Their story is under reported in the dominant mass media. Unfortunately the "west" has chosen to ignore their plight.

reply to post by Maymunah


I just found some articles about differences in tolerance of Muslims and the Christians. This in addition to the burning of 1 Koran in America in opposite to the hundreds of Bibles that are burned daily by the Muslims in the Middle East

British schools ban Bible distribution
'Unclean' guide dog banned by Muslim cab driver
Rising Christian anger in Malaysia over Bible seizures
7 held over slaying of Christians at Bible publisher
UN Envoy Details How Employees Were Killed During Quran Burning Protest In Afghanistan
Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses
Muslims Burn Bibles Routinely and Often
Hundreds of Burning Bibles, 1 Burnt Koran

Originally posted by DutchBigBoy
Most of the replies I see here do not understand the meaning of this post.
I am not a Muslim hater. As you can see in the documentary, the western countries are allready massacring the Muslims and they now want to go back to old way of Muslim of life and teachings. I am not saying Muslims are bad, I am merely stating that they are mad about the way they are treated the last century.

And soon they will do paybacktime.

No, Muslims have always been trying to kill Europeans since Islam's inception, they have not, and will not succeed.

reply to post by OldCorp


Yeah if we counted the dead of Christian Europe in their sectarian wars and secular wars, even the civil war where 600,000 died.

Do you know how many people were killed in World War II?

The great CHRISTIAN EUROPEAN WAR?

50 TO 70 MILLION!

Look at yourself before you start running your self righteous crap!

Thread like this, these paranoid ideas because people in the WEST are raised on movies and TV that add to their crazy paranoia

If we look at history, it’s the Christian West that everybody should be afraid of, not Islam.

Look at history . . . who has enslaved and colonized the whole third world, including Muslim lands? EUROPEAN CHIRSTAN POWERS

Who has created all these atomic devices, thousand of them, that can destroy the whole world. EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS WITH HELP FROM EUROPEAN JEWS.

Who is responsible for the present economic destruction and all the fears of what worse can happen?
EUROPEAN CHRSTIANS, WITH THE HELP OF EUROPEAN JEWS.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL WARMING, AIR POLUTION THAT MANY THINK WILL SOON, IF WE DON’T CORRECT IT, DESTROY THE ENVIROMENT?

EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS WITH THE HELP OF EUROPEN JEWS.

IT IS YOU GUYS, EUROPEAN CHRITIANS AND THE WESTERN POWERS, THAT HAS THE POWER TO DO WHAT YOU FEAR MOST.

NOT SOME RAGTAG MUSLIMS RUNNING AROUND IN THE DESERT OR IN A CAVE.

LOOK AT REALITY AND WAKE UP AND KNOW YOUR REAL ENEMY AND STOP BEING A BIGOT!

Who is responsible for the moral decay in the world? Muslims or Euro-Christians with the help of European Jews: The movie industry. The fasion industry. The sex and pornography industry. The TV culture. Sex, drugs, gansta rap and Rock n Roll,
All that has made many of our children either drug addicts or sex fiends or internet or phone junkies.

Or made many of us grown ups addicted to legal and illegal drugs.
What civilization has promoted this corruption the most?

The Islamic culture or the Christian West?

Look at all the serial killers, and crime in America; there are more prisoners than any country in the world.

Is that the fault of Muslims?

NO!

The average Muslim in the West is a law abiding citizen who contributes positively to society


And it’s the corruption of the West that I mention above that many Muslim countries want no part of

reply to post by inforeal


I advise you to look at these youtube videos. I know it is these days more and more difficult to have a free speech or a opinion of your own.



and then there are the riots in London
Terror link of 'moderate' Muslims at London rally

In this second article you can read how also non-muslims are threatened in London.
London Taliban terrorise Britains first Islamic enclave, Tower Hamlets

I don't hate Muslims but I am on my toes for those Muslims who embrace Sharia law. That is where the treat is.

Most people think it isn't as bad as we say. But here in northern Europe we see it all around us happening.
it is also nicely put in this article