The world really is getting better and better

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by spy66
That is totally false. Life expectancy has increased for three major reasons.

I fully agree with you that life expectancy has gone up. I also agree with the reasons. But improved medicine is one of them. It is not "completely" false.

But in the future medicin will be hard to come by unless we can find a replacement for fossil fuel energy. So that we can keep the current rate of requirement for resources to create medicin. We have not figured that one out yet.

We can not as of today build alternative machinery/components that can create alternative energies without the use of fossil fuel. We need fossil fuel to create these things.

We dont have alternative energies to fossil fuel to do maintenance on roads, bridges, buildings or any other structure at the same scale we are able to do today.

We dont have alternatives to keep the same rate of growing crops as we do with the aid of fossil fuel.

We dont have alternatives to harvesting the fields or transport the weight at the same rate we are with fossil fuel.

Our industry is mostly run by fossil fuel. It wont be able to process the harvest crops.

Science and exploration is run by fossil fuel. We will see a decline in science.

The list goes on. It doesn't look very bright. So how can studies tell us that the world is getting better and better?

Fossil fuel is on decline. That would mean human comfort is on the decline as well.

Originally posted by dl2one
I disagree. If I did agree then I would have to add that the bad news is on the rise just as much as the good news. While the mainstream and alt news does seem to focus on the negative it still appears to be a selection of stories that get attention while other worthwhile stories get ignored or even purposefully avoided. The thread title is just that, a thread title. The stats aren't always an indicator of anything as thinktanks, universities etc can easily be corrupted. Remember all the suicidal employees at Foxconn in taiwan? The story makes the news. The compant announces a 50% increase of wages, but failed to say what the wage is. Fk stats and pie charts and power point presentations.

You might be surprised, but I agree.

I keep thinking: "If you guys are going to be negative all day, why not be negative about the REAL stuff. Sudan comes to mind. How many threads on Sudan here, compared to others?

Or what about fractional reserve banking? How many threads on that?

I could go on all day about fake topics vs. real ones.

I'm on my dumb phone so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the OP addressed any of the posts made by Illusionsaregrander. I hope you give it a shot bud

I try to answer almost all posts but I cant answer them all. I answered two points brought up by Illusions. The last one was if Im sure that life expectancy went up. I find it difficult to even answer such questions because they question stuff that is common knowledge. This is not a thread for far-out speculation on the nature of reality. According to historcial data, the curve of life-expectancy has risen steeply and constantly in the last 1000 years and even more steeply in the last 500, and more steeply still in the last 200.

The other point Illusions brought up was that I am saying "we should not compete and then Im saying we should compete". Since my OP claimed no such thing I dont really understand the posts or how they address the OP, and I quit reading their posts in their entirety.

Originally posted by Dances With Angels


Steven Pinker has some great evidence relating to the world getting better. Here are two great videos:

Cant access the vids, but Im familiar with Steven Pinker. Great author

Originally posted by Peaceful Warrior
I do understand that things are getting better for some, but is the right direction we are heading? Should we only concentrate on making life more comfortable on the physical plane?

Its an interesting question, but thats a matter for the philosophy, theology, metaphysics I guess. Im only presenting the facts.

reply to post by Skyfloating

You saying I wear rose-coloured glasses because I dont buy into all the doom, fear and hatred of newsmedia is off the mark.

that wasn't all you said

we should all be careful not to judge people - don't you agree?

it never plays well when you imply that some people don't see things accurately - as accurately as yourself

that they aren't as perceptive or as astute - that they don't see this world the way it truly is

that they are fools or whiners...

because they aren't aware - like you

that their unhappiness is due to their own stupidity

as you suggested earlier - how I see this world is up to me

we all see this world Sky - we all live here

I think maybe you might see that now - truly

and good for you - on the Meth and teenagers situation

I mean that - sincerely

edit to add something - because it only just occurred to me: about your insistence that the media isn't portraying the world accurately - that it is all about fear, doom and gloom...and selling newspapers

then about your assumption that we all buy into it - and that we shouldn't, because life is really wonderful...

life really is wonderful Sky

and I just learned something new about you

Originally posted by irsuccubus
if you want to be happy with the world....help the world...

Yes! Wonderful and so true!

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by skylightsintheillions
Also, Africa is beautiful, yes. But safe and good to live in? Hell no!

The reasons your "youtube search of travel accounts" reveals people wearing nice clothes and eating at restaurants is that rich white people who visit Africa are treated royally. It's not just Africa, it's a lot of places in the world. So your assessment is foolish.
If you think that the female genital mutilation, the health epidemics and constant civil war are stunningly beautiful, then you have a very warped and demented world view.

Have you actually been to Africa? The way you are talking I am 100% sure you havent. Ive been all over Kenya, South Africa, Egypt, Namibia, Ethiopia. I trust my first hand experience more than I trust your word. I saw neither multilation, nor war, nor starvation anywhere. Not once.

But watching the News I should have assumed that I at least see it ONCE, no?

No, I haven't been to Africa, but I know that traveling the countries you did is far more advisable than say, Congo, Ivory Coast, Liberia. So please, don't try and demean my point of view because I haven't traveled to Africa. Your going there doesn't say much for the countries you didn't visit. That's much the same as visiting Peru in S. America and making a statement about that entire continent!

What a generalization you are making!

Virgil Hawkins, author of Stealth Conflicts; How the World’s Worst Violence Is Ignored (Ashgate, October 2008), provides a useful map representing conflict death tolls between 1990 and 2007 where the square area of continents/regions corresponds to their proportion of conflict death tolls: 88% of all conflict death tolls in this period were in Africa, followed by Asia (6%), Middle East (4%), Europe (1%) and the Americas (1%)
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/92f6d2eb17ef.jpg[/atsimg]

globalissues.org source
Like I said, that depends on where you travel. Just because you don't go to the places that are dangerous (why would you?), it doesn't mean they don't exist.

I of course would never say that ALL of Africa is in bad shape and needs help, but I would say it's a large enough problem to effect the whole continent. We've done a great deal of isolating Africa from the world, and from the media so we don't see the horrors that go on.

It's really wonderful of anyone to help out in humanitarian ways, and if you did that, you are great for it! But that doesn't mean these other human rights injustices and downright horrors are not taking place!

You also talked about lack of medical care in the 1800's, well guess what, most of Africa has that problem still apparently. You didn't notice this upon your visit?
MALE LIFE EXPECTANCY CHART
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5649ff46c13c.png[/atsimg]
FEMALE LIFE EXPECTANCY CHART
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0f44f658bf22.png[/atsimg]
life expectancy of the world - wiki

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by skylightsintheillions
IFirst of all, you cannot quantify happiness in a poll. I'm sorry but that's about as backwards as it gets.

But you can ask them whether they are happy or not and if they say they are, who are you to say they are not?

I'm a little bit fuzzy on your point here.

I don't remember saying anyone is or isn't happy. That was your claim.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
You do. Arguments that "on average" things are better,

The graph of the world is going up, up, up. There will be curves and slumps, but overall it is going up.

This is ATS, generally people like evidence and links. So if there is a graph of the world, can you link one at least so we can discuss what the graph shows? This might help enlighten our discussion here would it not?

Originally posted by skylightsintheillions


This is ATS, generally people like evidence and links. So if there is a graph of the world, can you link one at least so we can discuss what the graph shows? This might help enlighten our discussion here would it not?

The OP contains sufficient evidence and graphs and links and documentation of the worlds

a) health
b) standard of living
c) relative happiness
d) prosperity and income
e) education
f) overall level of peace

steadily rising and rising over the centuries. Isnt that wonderful?

We sure do live in exciting times!!!

Btw, regarding Africa: May I recommend Keya and Namibia to you? They are better than South Africa imo. While we're at it, why don't we build a school there together so that the kids have even more places for education?

Its really great. Life just keeps getting better, doesnt it? Let's go share our happiness and wealth with those who have less!

reply to post by Skyfloating


That much we can agree on. I plan on going to Africa and sharing what little wealth I have and mostly just helping.
At least we can agree on that. I'm particularly interested in Ethiopia.
But I'm working on helping out at home for the moment, starting in the roots of our communities grass so to speak.

Originally posted by skylightsintheillions

That much we can agree on. I plan on going to Africa and sharing what little wealth I have and mostly just helping.
At least we can agree on that. I'm particularly interested in Ethiopia.
But I'm working on helping out at home for the moment, starting in the roots of our communities grass so to speak.

So we can agree on helping out with real-life action? Thats something.

Speaking as someone who rents a home, doesn't own (purely by choice, but even tho i am not looking for a pre-built home, we are now looking to purchase some land as close to the middle of nowhere as possible, simply because I feel that is the way we can become more self-sufficient ), who drives a car that is 14 years old and am about to purchase another new-used car with money I have saved because I choose to not be in debt, who plants and grows food in her own garden because I know that my open-pollinated seeds will be worth more one day than money itself, who has ONE (YES folks, that is ONE) tv in her household (that happens to be ten years old -- and not a 'big screen' deal because I do NOT believe that the television should be the focal point in the home) despite the fact four humans live in it and two are children, and who for the first time in her 34 years is seeing a cohesive and consistent upswing in the consciousness & spiritual level of the humans on this planet, I say the OP is right on!

FOLKS, please understand that STUFF is not what is going to, or will ever, make you consistently happy. Instant gratification, maybe. but true happiness? NO. So gas prices, the housing market, food costs, all of this is forcing us to get our priorities straight. This needs to happen. We are way too materialistic and really truly delusional in thinking that more money & stuff is actually what this life is about.

There is a transition happening, and for those that are still numb and zombified by the sense gratification techniques of this world it will be a painful transition, as we are seeing. However, for those that are focused, awake (truly awake), and have realized that the interconnectedness of this universe cannot simply be tossed aside, it is a welcome transition that will finally cut through the illusions that have been keeping us blind for so long.

Originally posted by B.Morrison

I wanted the whole game to change. I don't like the game. I don't want it.

-B.M

So here we are. I love the game. You don't. What next?

reply to post by nightbringr


You are clearly someone that can only imagine from your own perspective. You can condemn people all day long but it will never solve the problem. Maybe you don't want the problem of poverty solved...

The only way the problem of poverty is solved is when we stop condemning and start FIXING their environment.

Like a lot of people in this world, I don't think you appreciate how the environment molds and shapes a person, especially at a young age. You can't imagine outside of your own perspective. Which has been molded by YOUR environment. Condemn, condemn, condemn.....but never actually have a solution. Sounds a lot like Fox News.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Hello Nada Cambia,

how nice of you to join our little discussion. Before clarifying whether "the powers that be" are the "enemies of freedom" or not, it would be helpful to clarify your definition of "the powers that be" for the readers and for your esteemed fellow ATSer now debating with you, don't you think? Some would argue that having money and power gives me the freedom...the freedom to donate money to the poor, the freedom to build schools, the freedom to stage movements of change, the freedom to disseminate literature. Therefore: Who are these "powers that be" and in which way are they the enemies of freedom? And would you agree that in order to make change, some power is needed?

Government and elite, those are what most refer to as TPTB. That's who I'm refering to as TPTB. It's a relative term. Those who control our nations and have those with the financial influence to do so outside of government, by influencing government or breaking laws at will.

TPTB are enemies of freedom because they act in their own interests, and not the interests of the common man.

Lets take a look at history again, has freedom ever been given to the people by benevolent governments. Did the Empire give India independence because that's what they wanted, a free and independent India, a Democratic India? Or did they give them power because they were faced with massive uprising?

We both know the anwser, and that anwser can be found throughout history. The Civil rights movement was a reaction by the people of the land, to immoral and backwards views and laws being pushed by TPTB.

Government and elite didn't sit up and say, "You know what we need? Equality!". That didn't happen. They were absolutely opposed to it, and it was the people, once again, demanding such change.

This is found throughout history. Lets look at America, why was America created? Because those living under the Empire were treated like rats and seventh-class citizens. Did TPTB support America? No, they waged war against the infidels who even dared to question their existence.

When something good happens you would not appear to give credit to anyone with power or money, as having power or money means to you that someone is evil?

That's not true, there are cases, however rare, where TPTB act in the interests of the people. Usually when the interests of the people coincide with the interests of themselves.

But lets see something good that happens, supported by the government and financial elite. Where they've taken the initiative to do good, without anwsering or responding to the demands of the people themselves.

Had you attempted a more thorough examination of the opening post you would have seen that the Human Development index shows that countries in which brutal dictatorships reign are overall miserable.

I thoroughly examined your OP, and that's a single aspect of what you're argueing as being 'better'. Furthermore it's a flawed aspect. Because if we went simply by happyness, as you're trying to do now for the sake of argument, we find places like Mexico and Colombia are real happy. Both countries have massive issues with poverty, crime and Democracy.

So if you're going to not support places like Iran, where poverty is down, because happyness is too down. Then by your own standards you should be supporting any number of countries with poor economies and crime, because they happen to be happy. Which over rules everything else.

Happyness in itself means nothing. Ignorance is bliss.

Im not aware of saying this. Is anyone reading aware of me having said or even implied any of this?

You've said it indirectly. By your own standards the British empire was a great place. Education, technology, income, Democracy... All these things increased under the British empire. So by your own line of reasoning the Empire was benevolent, because it brought, again by your own standards, positive change.

Now I´m really puzzled Nada Cambia. What could possibly be making you make false statemets about your fellow ATSers?

It's not a false statement. If countries, dictators and empires are held to your own standards, you'd support them. The fact you don't, that just shows you to be a hypocrite who refuses to follow his own rules.

How do you know? How can you be sure? In other places you imply that "TPTB" secretly staged this and secretly staged that. Why is it impossible for them to have staged revolutions for the benefit of mankind?

Secretly staged what? What are these secret stages you're refering to. Reference them so I can argue my case of these 'secretly staged' events.

Regardless, It's not impossible for them to stage revolutions for the benefit of mankind, but there's no evidence, and it would be some plan, wouldn't it. The people who promoted slavery and refused to outlaw it, were all along doing this to save humanity! This sort of thinking makes sense in your head?

Who owned slaves, who benefited from slaves? The government and elite of the time. I mean it's just such a profound argument. Who called for the end of slavery and inequality? The slaves, and to a large extent the lower class majority.

It is true that government and elites from 1 nation could infact go about promoting revolution and discontent in other nations. But I wouldn't imagine for any reasons of benevolence, as they don't promote the same in their own countries. This would be done to destablise and weaken other nations and power bases. Any number of brutal dictatorships can be found to support the plight of people in other nations against brutal dictatorships. But we know this isn't done for anything other than their own interests. When Ghadafi supported us against Iraq, this had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people. When we invaded Iraq, again nothing to do with the plight of the Iraq people.

But if you have evidence for benevolent government and elite trying to effect positive change for decent and moral reasons, present them. It isn't on my to disprove your claims, it's on you to back them up. That 1 elite power structure might go against another, that proves nothing other than that.

Are you telling us it was not the common man that held slaves and was racist? Are the hundreds of racist posts at this very website manufactured by "the powers that be" instead of by normal posters? WOW...what a conspiracy-theory Nada Cambia!

That's exactly what I'm saying. The common man was a slave, in alot of cases literally. He supported the plight of his brethren, regardless of race. I cannot speak for America, but this is most definately the case in Britain. Infact I probably can speak for America, there was massive revolt against wage-slavery. And was a main factor in ending slavery. I suppose TPTB were opposed to wage-slavery too, and it was infact the majority of wage-slaves who wanted to be wage-slaves. And only finally revolted after the slave owners themselves promoted them to do so!

Your point about posts on this website mean absolutely nothing. Are people racist, sure. Conditioned behaviour. Those in control like to create these atmospheres and conflicts, because it keeps the majority concerned with the trivial.

If what you say is true, TPTB would have simply brought in laws that made slavery and racial hatred illegal. They didn't, because they supported it. Suggesting anything to the contrary is just out and out profound. Unless you have something in the way of objective evidence to prove so.

I'm dissapointed that you ignored every request I made to provide evidence for your view. That speaks volumes.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I agree, no problems are solved by constant rants. Problems are solved when we understand what the root of the problem is and take action to solve it. However, when there is so much profit to be made from problems, it really slows our progress as a society.

I appreciate your optimism and you may be right that we, as in the whole world, are better off than we were in the past. I hope the arrow's pointing up. I hope that all of this struggle is a natural process of our evolution. However, I'm not going to gauge our progress by comparing to the past. I think that's a very inefficient gauge. We need to set goals and gauge progress on whether or not we are meeting those goals.

Take the car for instance. Why in the world are we still driving cars?? We've been driving cars for over a hundred years. 50 years ago we put man on the moon and 10 years ago we put a high tech robot on Mars. But yet, we are still driving cars that constantly need servicing. It's really ridiculous when you think about it. Our transportation system should have moved beyond cars a LONG time ago. We really don't have a transportation goal in place. Our only goal is profit, not problem solving.

Until I see that society actually WANTS to get out of their tiny life box to solve problems, I'm going to remain pessimistic. I don't know for sure, but it seems that our addiction to over consumption and profit is stronger than it ever has been. We have to be able to value problem solving over profit. We are a long way away from that, but I'm not a total pessimist. I think we can get there. And it would definitely help if we stop obsessing on Armageddon. Hopefully when 2012 DOESN'T happen, we will stop relying on prophecy and God to solve our problems for us and we will put the responsibility on ourselves.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by skylightsintheillions
Also, Africa is beautiful, yes. But safe and good to live in? Hell no!

The reasons your "youtube search of travel accounts" reveals people wearing nice clothes and eating at restaurants is that rich white people who visit Africa are treated royally. It's not just Africa, it's a lot of places in the world. So your assessment is foolish.
If you think that the female genital mutilation, the health epidemics and constant civil war are stunningly beautiful, then you have a very warped and demented world view.

Have you actually been to Africa? The way you are talking I am 100% sure you havent. Ive been all over Kenya, South Africa, Egypt, Namibia, Ethiopia. I trust my first hand experience more than I trust your word. I saw neither multilation, nor war, nor starvation anywhere. Not once.

But watching the News I should have assumed that I at least see it ONCE, no?

Did you leave your 5 star hotel?

So, instead of bickering and "showing" people how they view the world is "wrong..."

Why dont we figure out how to continue to make things better for the one perspective, or start making things better for the other perspective. both have their validity, period.

if one is actually trying to accomplish something with this thread beyond the typical bickering, i fail to see it. I have been posting several times with the same "what now?" question.

If we are going to inevitably continue to grow, what direction will that be?

Discussing this would be significantly more productive than proposing ones own "yea" viewpoint to be correct and accurate as opposed to the "delusions" of the "nay" side. We get that in most threads here anyway, no need to add to it..

Perhaps i have misunderstood the intent here. I will say this thread has clearly shown the issue of bickering between the dualistic sides leading to absolutely nothing being done. Over ten pages now of "im right!"..."no, im right!" The car could be going towards a cliff, but its occupants will be more concerned with arguing whether the road up to that point was beautiful or ugly.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

The graph of the world is going up, up, up. There will be curves and slumps, but overall it is going up.

There is no "graph of the world," Sky. Now you are just pulling crap out of thin air.

You can graph all sorts of things. Like you can graph the decrease in fish stocks, and the increase in the total number of starving people in the world, and the decrease in the worlds stocks of many precious metals, minerals, oil, top soil. You can graph the increase in the worlds population at the same time as these stores of resources are going down. You can graph the increase in our food production per acre since the 70's and notice it suddenly hitting a wall, while population continues to climb.

You can graph a lot of things in a lot of way, and what you choose to graph and compare has a lot to do with your conclusions about whether or not the view of people is too positive or too negative. But there is no one graph of the world showing that things are getting better and better and going up, up, up.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
If you continue to insist that things are getting worse, it may be that you are psychologically projecting your own bad situation on the world.

They do this because people do not experience as "the world" Sky. They experience as individuals. Just like you do. And just like you reserve the right to compete and try to better your personal circumstances, not surprisingly, they are also concerned with their own circumstances. Not the "average" circumstances of "the world."

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Seeing that not everything is quote as horrible as they say does not rule out competition. I can, for example, enter a sports game or a job interview without feeling desperate.

What feeling desperate has to do with anything is beyond me. Why go look for a job? Why not just be content that on average, more of the worlds people are employed?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I didnt say we should ignore that humans are in competition. You can celebrate some successes once in awhile and still be in competition. Not everything is black and white.

You know what the problem is Sky? You wrote a negative OP and called it positive. You were doing fine until that last line when you got your dig in about how people were just being selfish and thinking about how bad things are for them rather than celebrating the "average" increases in the world.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
If you continue to insist that things are getting worse, it may be that you are psychologically projecting your own bad situation on the world.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I don't mean to be insensitive towards your personal situation that has not improved. When you say "I had quite a good career", you are taking it to the personal, subjective level. And from a subjective level, if someone has personally experienced hardship, its difficult to see the world optimistically.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Your situation may not be the way you want it to be. But does that mean that the world is getting worse?
So you found someone to blame.

And why do you assume you need a whole house? 2 years ago I visited a man in India. He had no sofa for me to sit on. But he made me some tea. And he had no TV. No Internet. He had one room for his whole family. He did have a mattress. But he was happy. His smile was radiant. He did have toothpaste, apparently.

And those are just from page one. You could not be telling people "# you and your suffering" any more clearly if you flat out said it. You just like that little extra psychological cruelty of trying to make them look less spiritual than you by caring about their own circumstances. That lovely little insinuation that they should be "one" with all of humanity and rise above their competitiveness, and their innate drive to self preserve, when you sure arent.