The reason why you're not taken seriously

Part of the problem is that the alien visitation religion tries to belittle intelligent skepticism that doesn't gleefully jump onto the bandwagon of belief/faith by making such nifty graphics as this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56246bcd060f.jpg[/atsimg]

When, to the skeptical observer it would seem that the graphic that is more accurate would be like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9b4ae480a222.jpg[/atsimg]

Regardless, with the reality that there is an absence of any real, tangible proof (grainy pictures/movies and hearsay - even from astronauts or other highly regarded positions - is not proof) it all boils down to what you wish to believe.

I would say that most of us "skeptics" and "debunkers" actually believe that there is probably life out there somewhere...we just doubt that "they" are visiting us. Why are some of us so arrogant to believe that if there is intelligent life out there that it must be visiting us?

LOL I had a good laugh. Thanks

I still hold out hope that there's alien visitation. But it ticks me off when people make bold claims with no solid evidence at all and they are not ashame of it. They will keep feeding people like Hoagland money to make more outrageous claims

Scientists DO believe there are intelligent lifeforms outside of our solar system. How do people think they get funding for SETI? Heck, even the Catholic church is now accepting the life outside of earth idea. The idea of alien visiting earth is not something scientists can build a model on for observation therefore no credible scientist will make any statement about it.

Originally posted by tallcool1
Part of the problem is that the alien visitation religion tries to belittle intelligent skepticism that doesn't gleefully jump onto the bandwagon of belief/faith by making such nifty graphics as this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56246bcd060f.jpg[/atsimg]

When, to the skeptical observer it would seem that the graphic that is more accurate would be like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9b4ae480a222.jpg[/atsimg]

Regardless, with the reality that there is an absence of any real, tangible proof (grainy pictures/movies and hearsay - even from astronauts or other highly regarded positions - is not proof) it all boils down to what you wish to believe.

I would say that most of us "skeptics" and "debunkers" actually believe that there is probably life out there somewhere...we just doubt that "they" are visiting us. Why are some of us so arrogant to believe that if there is intelligent life out there that it must be visiting us?

edit on 8-3-2011 by tallcool1 because: resized graphic

Originally posted by tallcool1



Regardless, with the reality that there is an absence of any real, tangible proof (grainy pictures/movies and hearsay - even from astronauts or other highly regarded positions - is not proof) it all boils down to what you wish to believe.

How in the world could anyone who has actually
looked at the most interesting UFO cases assert that it all comes down to what one simply "wants" to believe? I don't think things are that easy. The same thing is often said about religion or god. There is evidence that those who believe in god live more fulfilled lives. I and many others I know would therefore love to believe in god, if that's the case... but simply cannot. BECAUSE OF the evidence (or lack thereof).

For many people, it's the same with UFO's. I can personally dismiss 95% of the cases, but it's those remaining few percent that prevent me from dismissing the whole idea, even when I do want to dismiss it. How could one read about, say, the 20 best UFO-on-radar cases and conclude that there's simply no evidence? To do so goes well beyond healthy skepticism, in my mind. You're absolutely right that there's no tangible evidence in the sense of flying saucer pieces for us all to touch, but still, given multiple cases of the famous RB-47 or Japan Airlines kind, how can any truly rational person just simply explain them all away? That people AND their radar's are lying and mis-identifying in exactly the same way, at exactly the same time?

You and I are probably 98% in agreement. But, how you off-handedly dismiss such high-quality sightings (multiple credible witnesses, multiple locations, radar, etc.) I do not quite understand. I could guess... maybe it's latent fear of anything more powerful than humanity... or a reluctance to associate with the 95% of the UFO "movement" that seems, shall we say, a little overly enthusiastic... and I could understand those emotions, definitely.

I just think it's a little too dismissive of some peoples' intelligence (even your own!) to say that it all comes down to what someone "wants" to believe. There are plenty of inquiring, rational people out there for whom belief (on any topic) is not a choice, but is instead the result of a rigorous analytical process.

I find it funny alot of skeptics/debunkers find it offensive to be called that.. Yet most are fast to put labels like ignorant on those who belive.

Originally posted by thecsb
I find it funny alot of skeptics/debunkers find it offensive to be called that.. Yet most are fast to put labels like ignorant on those who belive.

Thats because when confronted with scientific arguments the wanna be believers use the 'CIA/Illumanti Government' card to defend their videos of 'amazing proof'.

Its time we downgrade these people to the 'car salesmen' category so the true believers get more regconition
'cult members' might be an even better choice

Yes I agree with OP.
Many people at ATS jump when a half serious UFO sighting is reported here, but most of us end up disappointed when it turns out to be fake or suspect in some way.
Really think that this has created a sense of boredom almost in the Aliens and UFO's section. You have believers desperately clinging to any chance of a sighting being legitimate and debunkers that have witnessed too many fakes which makes for a predictable tug of war.
Please will somebody photo / film a legitmate sighting. Wouldn't it be great if we had a few more of those posted here exclusively and skeptics and believers alike could join forces in wonder.
Well, its like life on other planets. Its out there and it will happen one day

reply to post by vinunleaded


The whole "government conspiracy" meme is an easy tool for some people to use to defend their lack of evidence. It is growing pretty tiresome honestly.

Originally posted by Motive
2. Alot of people seem to be of the view that, if you don't believe that ET's are already in contact with Earth, or that there isn't a massive government coverup going on, then YOU MUST BE A NARROWMINDED SHEEP.

This is true to a certain degree...

Originally posted by Turiddu

The whole "government conspiracy" meme is an easy tool for some people to use to defend their lack of evidence. It is growing pretty tiresome honestly.

I agree with you. I've always felt that the notion of some widespread gov't UFO cover-up was unlikely, and many UFO believers do turn to those conspiracy aspects much too readily.

On the other hand, it would also be ridiculous to think we've been told everything, when we clearly have not. For example, radar data (plus many credible eyewitnesses) show that several F-16's were in pursuit of a MUCH larger, brighter, unidentified object near Stephensville, TX in January, 2008. Only if the public were given access to Air Force documents in that case, or given the chance to speak to those F-16 pilots about what it was they were chasing, OR if we were just plain told that it all involved a classified project... only then could we properly say that there is NO Air Force cover-up. (A story from NPR dated 1-24-08 goes into more detail.) Nothing the Air Force has said even suggests that it all had to do with some classified project, either (ignoring the total improbability of any classified projects involving anything of the described size or maneuverability.) So... what was it? Do they just think people will forget about it? Why can they not just handle it the way the Belgian Air force handled the Belgian wave, by admitting "we don't know what it was." Instead, they allow real people to be ridiculed. Shameful.

I guess I'm just saying, let's not pretend that people are totally bonkers and that there are not any good reasons to think we're being lied to. There are actually several instances where the only reasonable conclusion is, of course we're being lied to. My opinion is just that it is not nearly as widespread or as orchestrated as many UFO believers would probably prefer.

It's not really about "being taken seriously" because you're never going to be able to block out ALL of the trolls. You have to use your own brain and take the data you find valuable and block out the rest. You can't ever consider any website to be "taken seriously", by your definition.

Hi

I think when you look into UFOs and study them you have to be critical in your thinking and be objective. People seem to want to believe and I think this makes some people become biased and unobjective.

I am a skeptic and most definitely a cynic in many ways. However there is enough evidence to say that UFOs exist. I think you have to come to that conclusion if you look at the evidence objectively and fairly. I am not saying what they are, they could be many things: undiscovered natural and dimensional phenomena, new types of life, government black projects and of course E.Ts. There is definitely something worthy of discussion.

Unfortunately, there is so much rubbish out there. I think this is done both mistakenly and deliberately. People like faking things and lying apparently. Who would have thought it? We are a such a devious race.......: However, there are undeniably some cases that are UFOs. I think these should be taken seriously and studied properly.

Cheers

Threads such as these don't seem to help much, if anything they seem to hurt the community more than help as it incites more bickering than anything else. I have been involved in a few but the most logical reasoning seems to be ignored and that is that it is not the believer that is the problem or the skeptic, it is the false investigators on both sides of the argument. You have the one who claim to investigate but do not actually investigate past the sensationalistic headlines and videos, and claim that proof is now here. There are then the ones who just regurgitate the basic explanations given by others that debunk the story without actually investigating themselves. Neither one of these does anyone any good whatsoever.

One thing that seems to get overlooked is anyone can be a skeptic even a believer. If a believer goes into a reported instance from a skeptical point of view, it helps to determine the truth in the particular case. First thing when investigating any case all ordinary avenues must be exhausted before even looking toward the extraordinary ones. Another thing that must be realized is that just because an event is unexplained does not mean it is extraterrestrial, it just means it is just beyond our current understanding, which does in some cases eventually change.

A debunker is not a person who goes into a case with a closed mind. When a case is debunked the person who debunked it is the debunker of the case, but they are a debunker only of the cases that they debunked, they don't hold the title outside those cases.

There is nothing wrong in posting a video or picture if the poster genuinely isn't sure and is looking for answers. The problem comes when the poster purposely posts a video or they know is bunk and insults anyone who tries genuinely to explain what the video or picture is. This is where the frustration lies with alot of people who are genuinely interested in the topic and genuinely want to explore the topic. That and the above mentioned false investigators who do not genuinely look into a case, but just either regurgitates what they have heard others say or refuse to accept that the sensationalistic headlines and video or pictures in a story are not the genuine article even when proof is presented to them otherwise. As long as these elements exist people will get frustrated and the subject will continue to be one that has a bad rep.

Because of the previously mentioned, people who do try to genuinely examine cases get frustrated, and take the lazy way out in identifying hoaxes by instead of giving thought provoking posts, link to previous similar ones, because they get tired of reiterating the same things over and over, which can cause threads to get heated that could easily have been dispersed.

So there are many at fault, but we must all be diligent in order to find the truth.

I agree with most of the post except the beginning. We do need threads like this once in a while to bring attention to some obvious fraud on this forums. This way the new guys are aware of them and the higher standards in posting material for evaluation.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
Threads such as these don't seem to help much, if anything they seem to hurt the community more than help as it incites more bickering than anything else. I have been involved in a few but the most logical reasoning seems to be ignored and that is that it is not the believer that is the problem or the skeptic, it is the false investigators on both sides of the argument. You have the one who claim to investigate but do not actually investigate past the sensationalistic headlines and videos, and claim that proof is now here. There are then the ones who just regurgitate the basic explanations given by others that debunk the story without actually investigating themselves. Neither one of these does anyone any good whatsoever.

One thing that seems to get overlooked is anyone can be a skeptic even a believer. If a believer goes into a reported instance from a skeptical point of view, it helps to determine the truth in the particular case. First thing when investigating any case all ordinary avenues must be exhausted before even looking toward the extraordinary ones. Another thing that must be realized is that just because an event is unexplained does not mean it is extraterrestrial, it just means it is just beyond our current understanding, which does in some cases eventually change.

A debunker is not a person who goes into a case with a closed mind. When a case is debunked the person who debunked it is the debunker of the case, but they are a debunker only of the cases that they debunked, they don't hold the title outside those cases.

There is nothing wrong in posting a video or picture if the poster genuinely isn't sure and is looking for answers. The problem comes when the poster purposely posts a video or they know is bunk and insults anyone who tries genuinely to explain what the video or picture is. This is where the frustration lies with alot of people who are genuinely interested in the topic and genuinely want to explore the topic. That and the above mentioned false investigators who do not genuinely look into a case, but just either regurgitates what they have heard others say or refuse to accept that the sensationalistic headlines and video or pictures in a story are not the genuine article even when proof is presented to them otherwise. As long as these elements exist people will get frustrated and the subject will continue to be one that has a bad rep.

Because of the previously mentioned, people who do try to genuinely examine cases get frustrated, and take the lazy way out in identifying hoaxes by instead of giving thought provoking posts, link to previous similar ones, because they get tired of reiterating the same things over and over, which can cause threads to get heated that could easily have been dispersed.

So there are many at fault, but we must all be diligent in order to find the truth.

OP, you have said everything I have ever thought about this forum.

My personal favorite is the shaky camera man that can't seem to get the camera in focus. Honestly, having a seizure could probably hold a camera straighter than some of these videos I've wasted my time on. No offense there, just a comparison

.. Or how about the guy who recently claimed his daughter had an alien implant on her ankle that was obviously a blister from her shoe?

Aside from the occasional trolls, some of these posts are so blatantly obvious fake they do nothing but a disservice to the topic and forum, and are so bad at times I feel like it is almost like they could be disinfo only because they are just clogging the pages and are nothing but a disgrace. who knows though?

It is really sad that some people are naive enough to defend these bogus posts made.

" Alien implant on daughter's ankle?.....hmmm interesting. good find OP! I wonder why they picked you and your family....." give me a break.

Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets

Originally posted by tallcool1



Regardless, with the reality that there is an absence of any real, tangible proof (grainy pictures/movies and hearsay - even from astronauts or other highly regarded positions - is not proof) it all boils down to what you wish to believe.

For many people, it's the same with UFO's. I can personally dismiss 95% of the cases, but it's those remaining few percent that prevent me from dismissing the whole idea, even when I do want to dismiss it. How could one read about, say, the 20 best UFO-on-radar cases and conclude that there's simply no evidence? To do so goes well beyond healthy skepticism, in my mind. You're absolutely right that there's no tangible evidence in the sense of flying saucer pieces for us all to touch, but still, given multiple cases of the famous RB-47 or Japan Airlines kind, how can any truly rational person just simply explain them all away? That people AND their radar's are lying and mis-identifying in exactly the same way, at exactly the same time?

You and I are probably 98% in agreement. But, how you off-handedly dismiss such high-quality sightings (multiple credible witnesses, multiple locations, radar, etc.) I do not quite understand. I could guess... maybe it's latent fear of anything more powerful than humanity... or a reluctance to associate with the 95% of the UFO "movement" that seems, shall we say, a little overly enthusiastic... and I could understand those emotions, definitely.

I just think it's a little too dismissive of some peoples' intelligence (even your own!) to say that it all comes down to what someone "wants" to believe. There are plenty of inquiring, rational people out there for whom belief (on any topic) is not a choice, but is instead the result of a rigorous analytical process.

edit on 8-3-2011 by TeaAndStrumpets because: font

edit on 8-3-2011 by TeaAndStrumpets because: font still weird!

T&S - sorry for taking so long to answer...I don't actually have a lot of free time lately.
In my opinion, the 20 best UFO on radar cases as well as the Japan Airlines case and others that you refer to should boil down to what is more realistic to believe. For example, there was no such aircraft as the U2 until the former Soviet Union shot down Gary Powers 4 years after we started flying over their airspace. That incident is the first time Americans in general became aware of that airplane. To me it is more logical to believe that the USA and Russia are still playing their little "game" of hide and seek with each other using highly classified aircraft that "don't exist". I firmly believe that there are military and/or alphabet agency crafts that are 20 years or so more advanced than anything we are aware of out there flying. There are many declassified reports and pictures showing different countries experiments with saucer shaped and triangle (or delta) shaped crafts. I'm not dismissing these highly credible witnesses, I just think it is more logical to believe that it is top secret crafts that are being seen rather than ET crafts.

And to anyone with the eye-rolling response that I'm skeptical due to "fear" - that is pretty much the same as name calling when someone doesn't believe the same as you. I would be absolutely thrilled to have undeniable proof of intelligent life visiting us. It's not "fear" of the unknown, it's just believing in a more logical explanation.

Originally posted by tallcool1
And to anyone with the eye-rolling response that I'm skeptical due to "fear" - that is pretty much the same as name calling when someone doesn't believe the same as you. I would be absolutely thrilled to have undeniable proof of intelligent life visiting us. It's not "fear" of the unknown, it's just believing in a more logical explanation.

Fear is a simplification.

It is really just firm preconceived notions.

Many would argue that the undeniable proof already exists; and plenty of it.

However, it is easy to rationalize the evidence away if you want to.

This "want" might be on a subconscious level and it might not be motivated by fear but the point is that it distorts your objectivity.

Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets

can personally dismiss 95% of the cases, but it's those remaining few percent that prevent me from dismissing the whole idea, even when I do want to dismiss it.

edit on 8-3-2011 by TeaAndStrumpets because: font

edit on 8-3-2011 by TeaAndStrumpets because: font still weird!

There is a HUGE step from unexplainable to alien air craft.

All I can say is it's frustrating we get these silly hoax videos daily and people still find things to talk about them for pages and pages. Yet no-one is doing anything for the supposed government-coverup to be exposed. So many people are CONVINCED there are incredible alien beings visiting us but too bad only we know because the truth is being hidden. We don't even get any official answers or opinions. I remember one Obama joke or two. If there ever was a disclosure it was within the UFO community in the form of some hoaxer claiming to be a retired military special official who tells us the truths.

If there's no undeniable videos and photos within the next five years, we can stop this. Everybody has a camera now. Whether or not aliens visit us, changes NOTHING. If they do, we never see them, if they don't then they never affected us. Shouldn't it be enough we're living on a paradise planet full of spectacular life forms, we should be doing our best to prevent it being destroyed. The universe is neverending and a miracle but we can't reach out there.

To the OP . Great thread and about time that somebody at last says it how he sees it . I'm totally with you .
Can we add to it all the idiotic threads about prominent people supposedly being " reptilian" . How totally absurd these posts are . As are the idiots who posts thread after thread regarding "orbs" , or the total wackos who believe they are " channeling " with beings from a distant star .

Time to get back to grass roots .

Originally posted by tallcool1
Part of the problem is that the alien visitation religion tries to belittle intelligent skepticism that doesn't gleefully jump onto the bandwagon of belief/faith by making such nifty graphics as this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56246bcd060f.jpg[/atsimg]

When, to the skeptical observer it would seem that the graphic that is more accurate would be like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9b4ae480a222.jpg[/atsimg]

Well you've basically got the military : deny everything, and the blind believers (those who'll believe almost anything.) : believe everything. I'd like to think UFO researchers would be the sensible people in the middle. Of course, the middle ground is hardly ever mentioned because they don't spend half the time bickering and research instead, so it's not even that clear that they actually exist to a lot of people.