Exclusive: Troopers would 'absolutely' use force on Wisc. protesters if ordered, police union presid

Originally posted by Whereweheaded



I don't think any ATS'ers here who have or currently are in the military wouldn't want an apology from you! Your comments and logic suggest YOU and people like you are the problem, and need to be eradicated. Judging people because of their service loses you credibility.

As ex military, I don't want an apology from the poster for expressing his opinion.

Actually I want and apology from you for wanting to "eradicate" a person for expressing an opinion that I may disagree with, but will defend to the death his right to the First amendment.
en.wikipedia.org...

"people like you" huh? Am I a "people like you??"

Originally posted by Tharsis

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
It wouldn't surprise me if the military personnel question the very orders they are given, and take sides with the very people they are sworn to protect.

Not saying this story is 100% on-point, but I have something to share.

When I graduated high school, a TON of my friends/classmates went into the military. The problem with every one of them, is that they were all tools. Not to be a "name caller", but to label them appropriately--they wanted to be a function of another man's control. They didn't want to do anything without being told to do it.

These people would have no problem opening fire on their own countrymen. They signed up for the military so they could shoot people, and by all means they will if allowed/ordered to do so. The noblest of these confreres admitted to joining the military so he could "eff Korean hookers".

I could not see any of my friends, now military men and no longer friends, siding with the American public if that meant they couldn't shoot people.

No apologies to any of ATS military members, I speak only of my personal observations.

Fortunately, they aren't our best and brightest...

...and we outnumber them.

edit on 2/21/11 by Tharsis because: (no reason given)

Makes you wonder about the old saying "birds of a feather" Good thing you are sooooooooo smart right? High school isn't known for the most eloquent quotes, except by you probably.

There are plenty of college kids who state the same types of lofty goals. (partying, hookers, drugs etc)

I've never said these kinds of things as reasons to join the millitary (especially wanting to shoot people), but maybe your "friends" changed their minds once their balls dropped, grew up a little and creeped ever so slightly up to your higher level in the evolutionary chain.

reply to post by Fitch303


When man or woman swears to uphold and defend the Constittuion of The United States, they are also swearing to uphold the rights of the people. after all, the Constitution is all about the people and their rights and privacy. they go hand in hand. please, think about it.

This jumped very quickly from police clearing a protest so the government can do their jobs to firing on innocent civilians. Nobody is going to be firing on anybody. And to the OP calling the man in the chair in Wisc a "corrupt governor" how do you come to that conclusion? Because he's not bowing down to the union demands? That is the type of talk that inflames the ignorant to become violent in the first place. Police doing their jobs is now wrong because some teachers don't want to pay for their benifits and are howling about it? I suggest if you want blood and guts there's plenty going on in Libya right now to suffice.

reply to post by whaaa


We have come along way from 40 years ago...
I like to think our government knows better
then to attack an armed populace...

Just saying...
If they use guns, they will be met with guns..
They know this..

reply to post by hillynilly

We have come along way from 40 years ago... I like to think our government knows better then to attack an armed populace...

None of the unarmed students expected to be shot that day at Kent State either.

I wouldn't put anything past the Govt today, shady-wise... or stupidity-wise.

reply to post by whaaa

As ex military, I don't want an apology from the poster for expressing his opinion. Actually I want and apology from you for wanting to "eradicate" a person for expressing an opinion that I may disagree with, but will defend to the death his right to the First amendment.

Then why even make a response, if you are going to " defend the right to the First Amendment"? Would appear rather counter-productive, claiming the thing you decry, and yet still make your comment? It would appear, you would be a part of the " problem ' with " them".

reply to post by butcherguy



Unarmed students, or fish in a barrel?

Key-phrase: UNARMED students 40 years ago....

Wont happen right now, don't let this fear mongering get to you...

If they shoot, shoot back it's self defense...

I think we have learned from then to expect anything at anytime.

Wait till they use those bio weapons in the tear gas containers lol people all of a sudden start flopping dead like flies, and the concetration camps conviently start filling up and the plastic coffers are being used. LOL you guys down south are going to be toast!!! better know how to use gun!!!

Originally posted by hillynilly
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Unarmed students, or fish in a barrel?

Key-phrase: UNARMED students 40 years ago....

Wont happen right now, don't let this fear mongering get to you...

edit on 21-2-2011 by hillynilly because: (no reason given)

I hope you are right! But with the mood of the country, divided, thanks to the likes of Rush, Sean, Beck, Ingraham, Levin, Gallagher, Medved, Sussman, Hal Turner, Kaufmann and Savage, continuing the unrelenting fear mongering and hatred of those they disagree with....

Anything can happen and Murphy's Law is still a viable operating system.

Originally posted by SirMike
Wow, a story sourced from the "World Socialist Web Site" ..... dont that just ooze credibility?

are socialists uncredible people?

It is my belief that the vast majority of police and military would carry out malicious orders from a corrupt government (we see it all of the time), though not because they are bad or evil people but rather because we are all being indoctrinated to believe that the government is always right and that we should always have to answer to the government, not the other way around. Somewhere along the line, the roles have switched to where we serve and answer to the government, as opposed the government serving and answering to us. This is called tyranny.

Most people don't even realize that the US, by definition, is now an authoritarian state. Instead, we are indoctrinated to believe that the government has our best interests at heart, even if common sense would suggest otherwise. Thus, any measures that the government takes are therefore in our best interests. I can't tell you how many times that people have told me, "so what, there isn't anything we can do about it anyway" and that is the individual mentality, the kind of thought-process that is apparently fostered by all of these measures to keep the people from organizing, whether it be through distraction or physical force.

There are certain influences, conspiratorial or not, that are very effective at keeping the people from assembling and organizing to hold our government accountable and ensuring that the government serves our best interests. We now need to ask our government for permission to protest against that very same government and all too often, permission is only granted with stipulations that ensure any protest is pointless. Any protest or assembly that wouldn't be absolutely futile, is strictly forbidden and the worst part is, most people are indoctrinated to buy that hogwash. If the protest ignores these anti-Constitutional controls over the right to assemble, the media quickly moves in to demonize the demonstrators and the militarized police forces illegally move in to squash it. Of course it doesn't help at all when there are government agent provocateurs that are used as just another tool in the box to quiet any movement to win freedom back for America through protests and assembly. Often times, we are completely prevented from assembling at all, though the very fact that we have to ask permission defeats the purpose in the first place.

Practically speaking, we don't have a free press either, which would help people in gaining back control over our government, but it appears as if the media does its best to keep the people distracted, divided and ignorant. Just look at what happened to the Tea Party. Until we have a free and impartial press, the people will remain subject to their government and every year, the government will become more and more oppressive, while we just get used to it and accept it. There is a huge difference between citizen and subject and while many people falsely believe that we are American citizens, we are in fact American subjects. I dare anyone to prove me wrong.

Our founding fathers created the "Bill of Rights" for the purpose of keeping the people as citizens and to prevent the tragedy of the people becoming subjects, though we have allowed these stipulations to be dismantled one by one, to the point where they are now completely irrelevant and sadly, people don't even realize this. It's one thing to be oppressed and know you are oppressed and it is a whole other issue to be oppressed and think you are free.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

It has become clear to me, that the United States Constitution is no longer valid and those in control of our government don't even need to pretend that it is. It is now just accepted that the government has the ultimate say, in complete spite of what the people want or what is in our best interest. No longer do we have a government "by", "for" and "of" the people and instead, we have a government over the people.

With all of that being said, the most drastic, oppressive and tyrannical policies and measures don't happen over-night to where people become shocked at what is going on. Instead, they happen slow enough, to where the American people are conditioned or indoctrinated to accept them. It's the whole frog in the pot concept (that we have all heard time and time again). Each time the government takes an oppressive measure, we accept it and then become used to it. If "they" just turned up the heat all of the sudden, we would surely jump out of the pot, but make no mistake about it, the water is starting to boil.

These officers and (potentially soldiers) aren't evil people and I'm sure they don't go into work every morning hoping to destroy what made America so great, the very foundation of the American idea, though they have been conditioned to believe that this is just the way it is and thus the way it should be.

As crazy as it sounds, the best thing that we can hope for, as a country, a population and a society, is for the authorities to crank up the heat at a fast enough pace to where the American people realize that it's hot in the first place. I don't think this will happen, at least until we have traded all of our liberty for their false promise of security. That way, they can turn up the heat as fast as they want and we won't be able to do anything about it because we will have already allowed them to completely lock us down. Otherwise, so long as this heat is slowly turned up, people will continue to falsely believe that the temperature is just where it has always been and where it should be.

We are at the point now, where it has to get worse before we can even hope for something better. We have to rise above the indoctrination and distraction techniques to see what these oppressive and [Constitutionally] illegal policies for what they are. As a population, we can't be oppressed without our own cooperation.


--airspoon

No military ever side with the people. It happened only a few times in the thousands of revolution in history.

Even in Egypt, a part of the army was against the people.

But in the US, they don't even have to use bullets... they just use tasers, heat ray, sound ray, rubber bullets, tear gas....

So they ``appear`` to be non-violent against protesters, when in fact, they are hitting the protesters with everything they have.

Please let it be the start of the revolution.

reply to post by hillynilly

If they shoot, shoot back it's self defense...

Then an airstrike is called in. Do you have an anti-aircraft gun in your pocket?
There are good reasons for peaceful protesters to remain peaceful.

Then again,


I realize that US supplied helicopters killing unarmed refugees from Guatemala in 1984 is a little bit different from US forces killing US protesters in the US. The reasons and means are the same.

But "If I had a rocket launcher..."

Originally posted by JibbyJedi

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
Before this happens they need to realize one important thing. Americans just don't throw rocks. We have the means to spit lead also. Being the most armed civilian force in the world I don't think it would be wise for any authority to open fire on an American public.

I assure you, the US military, and our allies, have weaponry far more advanced than gun powder projectiles, and they aren't afraid of them. Yes the American armed populace will be annoying at first, but with satellite and drone technology they can neutralize any well armed resistance effortlessly from high above. Locating these people is as easy as heat signature from above.

Are you or have you been in the military? How many of your own people (the ones your serving to protect) would you fire on before you had enough and had to do a little soul searching?
We, the civilian, make up the military and the government. There couldn't be either without us.

reply to post by HoldTheBeans


I'm not quite sure where Wisconsin Governor became corrupt according to the thread however I have heard that Wisconsin was supposed to end the year with a fiscal retainer of about 120 Million. He put in place some bills that gave the State a deficit and is now trying to cut union civil rights and say that they have no right to negotiate with exception to wages.

In some cases what he's doing about the Unions might be the right thing but if he created the problem and now proposes the solution is he really doing the right thing. In my mind the problem never should have existed to begin with.

Also I have to agree with the poster that said the chief still needs to put food on his table so him saying that he'd violate a direct order probably wouldn't be top on his list of things to admit right now. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it might be a better way to answer because in all reality we never really know how it will strike us. Using force also could mean nothing more than standard riot control in which real bullets are not fired, they use pepper spray, hoses, riot shields, herding techniques, aggressiveness and words to show 'force'. If they did ever fire real bullets into a crowd of peaceful protesters or any crowd of Americans they would have a true S*#T storm on their hands nationwide.

The opinion of one man does not a consensus make!!! He is talking awfully big and making a number of assumptions. I somehow seriously doubt that it would go down as described. I personally now a number of police officers and each has told me that they would only follow lawful orders and their use of force would only match the use of forceused against them - especially when it comes to peaceful protesters.

Police aren't stupid. They know full well that unwarranted use of force against lawful, peaceful protesters would only multiply their numbers exponentially and their rage to unfathomable levels. In police parlance, this is referred to as "Bad tactic"!

If they did ever fire real bullets into a crowd of peaceful protesters or any crowd of Americans they would have a true S*#T storm on their hands nationwide.

That is a fact. Talk about people rising up. Folks would care not one thing about what they were protesting for but when the first bullet were ever to be fired all hell would break loose.

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive

Originally posted by JibbyJedi

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
Before this happens they need to realize one important thing. Americans just don't throw rocks. We have the means to spit lead also. Being the most armed civilian force in the world I don't think it would be wise for any authority to open fire on an American public.

I assure you, the US military, and our allies, have weaponry far more advanced than gun powder projectiles, and they aren't afraid of them. Yes the American armed populace will be annoying at first, but with satellite and drone technology they can neutralize any well armed resistance effortlessly from high above. Locating these people is as easy as heat signature from above.

Are you or have you been in the military? How many of your own people (the ones your serving to protect) would you fire on before you had enough and had to do a little soul searching?
We, the civilian, make up the military and the government. There couldn't be either without us.

I have not been in the military but my family has been. I am a full-on supporter of our soldiers who join because of courage and sense of duty, there are idiots who also join and I do not support those particular troops. The lowest moral character troops are drafted for other assignments, some privately funded.
What about the American and British soldiers who gun down "suspected" terrrorists all the time? People die because of hypothetical beliefs embedded into the police and military. Youtube is loaded with videos of police brutality based solely on "hypothetical scenarios that may or may not exist."

What CAN happen is not necessarily what DOES happen, but some police & military operate daily under these principles and uphold their 'policies & procedures' AHEAD of the Constitution.

It seems that now is the time for all our good LEOs on ATS to prove they won't strike down their fellow citizens just because they are ordered to.

The unions are protesting a unilateral stripping of their rights, all except for the firefighter's and police unions who get to keep their bargaining rights.

It would appear to me that any officer who obeyed an order to use force of any level to remove the people from the building they own, in which business is conducted in their name, while accepting paychecks that include the taxes paid by the protesters, are committing grievious betrayal on several levels:

1. Union members engaging in and supporting union busting. As fellow union members, this is betrayal of the highest order.

2. Citizens engaging in and supporting the stripping of rights from fellow citizens, rights they themselves keep.

3. Community members who engage in and support diminishing the quality of life in their neighborhoods.

Because they were told to.

It is a difficult situation to be in, but difficult situations are where you walk the talk.

ATS LEOs:

If you are a member of a union, it is your duty as a union member to talk to the Wisconsin LEOs and ask them to stand in solidarity and at a minimum share the same fate as their fellow unions, and while I understand why the may not want to join the protesters, at least as fellow union members, they can refuse to remove them.

Please walk the talk, and do not allow other LEOs to use force against fellow citizens protesting for their rights.

Speak out against all forms of violence, including pushing or dragging.

Tell them to treat it like a classroom: NO touching allowed.