The Knowledge of Good and Evil

A member of ATS recently had this question for me in an earlier thread.
I apologise for missing your question Griffo, I didn't mean to be rude to you in any way .I've devoted this thread to your answer.

Q.
If god was all knowing/powerful why did he give Adam and Eve free will then? As he knew they would eat from the tree. Or better still, why did he create satan, because if he was all knowing he would have known that satan would trick them from eating from the tree


A.
First, God wanted creations that would choose to love him freely. Out of the free will he bestowed on them. I find this perfectly reasonable. Why did he create Satan? He didn't. He created Lucifer. The brijghtest and most beautiful angel in all of heaven. The Bible says, that one day iniquity was found in him. This to me means this creation, turned against God. Out of his own freewill he made an evil choice.That's when he became Satan.
His vanity caused him to love himself, more than he loved God. He wanted to be the most high. The result was war in heaven. Satan was able to beguile a third of the angels to join him. They were banished

So Satan chose to do the opposite of God in everything.. All that evil truly is, is a choice. Choose evil and God will have nothing to do with you. Hence, the invisible spagetti monster. One day, the Earth and the heavens will be filled with only those who love God. Out of their own freewill, they will love him. Then evil will exist no more, because no one will choose evil. The reason why God lets this all play out? Very simple. It's not that God can't just wipe it all away. It's that he would have to be a tyrant to do so. See in the eyes of the other two thirds of heaven, who remained faithfully with God. He would be.

Do you see how Gods hands are tied.? He must let this new idea that is of Satan, this choice of evil, must be allowed to.play out. How else would heavens angels, know they were righteous in their choice? I say new idea because to all of the those who populate the heavens eternally. Evil is a new idea. Before Satan, evil must not have existed in the universe because no one had ever made the choice. By this it serves purpose to let the devil have his day. One day, all the Cosmos will know, God is the only one we all should obey. Just as a little child should obey his or her parents. Because it's not only the best thing in our interest. It is also the way to love him. When there is no one left to choose evil. Evil will cease to exist. From there, it will fade from memory until once again there won't even be any knowledge of it, at all.

That's the knowledge of good and evil.

I'd say this thread is for the Religion forum.

Two lines.

reply to post by randyvs


Ok so why did god let Satan into the garden of Eden where he would obviously influence Adam and Eve?

Not so clever of god to standby and allow the free will of Adam and Eve to manipulated by Satan now was it.

reply to post by randyvs


• When did Lucifer become Satan?
• When was this epic Heavenly battle between God and Satan? Was it before, after, or as a result of the Garden of Eden event?
• Where does the God/Satan bet about Job fit into the chronology of this epic Heavenly battle and Lucifer's Fall?

God would be a tyrant to merely wipe out evil? Well, don't we call tyrants those that punish, persecute, and murder dissenters and opposition? All of eternity in a blazing inferno of torment for disobedience isn't tyrannical?

May Peace be upon you.

reply to post by randyvs



the more you think of "god" , "adam" , "eve" and "lucifer" as distinct actual separate personalities instead of archetypal psychological aggregates of the human mind, the more and more blind you will remain as to their true symbolic nature.

in the Gnostic mystery schools that understand the root wisdom of all religions, we see "Adam" as the "brain" .. the "mind" of the anonymous individual. We see "Eve" as the sexual organs. We see "Lucifer" as the primal urge of creation within the spine.. the "light" as it were .. withing the magnetic attraction to other beings. This "light" this "magnetism" can be envisioned as a snake-shaped circuit of energy coursing up and down the spine.

When "Eve" "tastes" of this "fruit" ..."she" ... participates in eating of the "fruit" of knowledge of good and evil. Adam.. the "mind" then knows of this as well and knows that he likes it.
Sex is at the core of all creation. It can be used to create an entirely new being.

It can also be used to cultivate a higher level of divine creative energy within the spine, thereby taming the "snake" .. taming the lucifer.. brought up the spine and activating the pineal gland eventually transforming the body temple in the holiest of holies here the ark is activated within the cranium through cascades of commandments (hormones) from endocrine gland to endocrine gland.. church to church.. chakra to chakra.. where then there is union between the individual and the higher collective consciousness of the universe which is God... this also leads to biological ...immortality when the fountain of youth within the palate of the roof of the mouth is activated and pours forth a secretion of ambrosia or "amrita"... the vital sustaining serum produced by the body itself.

God desires to exist, love, and continue existing and loving. This is "good".
The more the orgasm is treated as an animal spasm, the more divine energy is lost from the individual.
the more the individual's sexual organs "taste" of the "fruit" (orgasm) .. the more the mind (Adam) enjoys this and the more difficult it is to resist this spasm and cultivate the energy through sex without expelling it repeatedly.

The more this is retained.. the more "good" is experienced.
The less it is retained the more "evil" is experienced (evil here being used as a term to define an antithesis for God's version of "good" ..ie..immortality.. godhood..)...

thus adam (mind) and eve (sexual organs) ... are sent out of Eden (immortality, a state of being for the body) ... and forced to live and die like animals do.



OR.... you can look at it as a comic book like most of the world and ponder over what each character in the comic book actually meant until the end of your life.
However, I highly doubt that path will bring you much practical, applicable benefits.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by randyvs

 

• When did Lucifer become Satan?

Before mans creation or nearly the same time as far as what I believe.

• When was this epic Heavenly battle between God and Satan? Was it before, after, or as a result of the Garden of Eden event?

Before

• Where does the God/Satan bet about Job fit into the chronology of this epic Heavenly battle and Lucifer's Fall?

After Genesis.

God would be a tyrant to merely wipe out evil? Well, don't we call tyrants those that punish, persecute, and murder dissenters and opposition? All of eternity in a blazing inferno of torment for disobedience isn't tyrannical?

Yes it would be if that were the case.

reply to post by Mr_Awesome

Not so clever of god to standby and allow the free will of Adam and Eve to manipulated by Satan now was it.

Are you implying that Adam and Eve didn't know any better and needed a baby sitter? They knew who god was. Come on !

reply to post by randyvs


I'm simply asking why god would allow an evil being into his garden of paradise?

Obviously god must have known that Satan would try and manipulate Adam and Eve.

Originally posted by Mr_Awesome
reply to post by randyvs

 

I'm simply asking why god would allow an evil being into his garden of paradise?

Obviously god must have known that Satan would try and manipulate Adam and Eve.

Right, and I understood your question, and answered it. I'll explain.
The fact that they knew who God was, should have been enough for them, to obey him and not listen to Satan.
Satan still had free will. So did they. They should have listened to what the one who made them said. Not this other entity. If they would listen to the snake instead of God, then they would listen to the duck or the frog as well.

Prevenge

I think that's a nice read if new age mysticism or in this case symbology is your thing . To reduce God to just a symbol. I just know better. Sorry.

And of course if you don't love God then you will roast in hell for all eternity based on the influences of one life-time.
This all makes cruel actions OK - if God does them or commands them then they are good, no matter how painful and sick. If anybody else does them then they are "evil".
That doesn't show any moral compass or compassion whatsoever.
It's simply saying that if you believe you love God and performing a cruel action to please Him then it is "good".

If roasting or eternal lonely wandering (depending on the definition of hell) is the alternative, then this is blackmailing people, and has nothing to do with love.

Originally posted by halfoldman
And of course if you don't love God then you will roast in hell for all eternity based on the influences of one life-time.
This all makes cruel actions OK - if God does them or commands them then they are good, no matter how painful and sick. If anybody else does them then they are "evil".
That doesn't show any moral compass or compassion whatsoever.
It's simply saying that if you believe you love God and performing a cruel action to please Him then it is "good".

If roasting or eternal lonely wandering (depending on the definition of hell) is the alternative, then this is blackmailing people, and has nothing to do with love.

Would you even care if I told you. You're making a judgement based on a half baked assumption. the fires of hell are reserved for the wicked. Satan and his angels. period.

Also what you call blackmailing are consequences. Something that spoiled people don't know anything about.


If you won't live by the law.
Then you will die by the law.
As our creator he has every right to judge us. That's just the way it goes.

reply to post by randyvs

Well thanks, but that's all quite vague.
It's what makes it so difficult on this site to debate religious issues sometimes.
One has a sense of Christianity and what most Christians believe, but there are so many variations and even self-styled Christians.
So when discussing good and evil it could be useful to expand a bit on hell or what defines evil?
Is only Satan evil?

reply to post by randyvs

If you won't live by the law. Then you will die by the law. As our creator he has every right to judge us. That's just the way it goes. edit on 17-2-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

What law would that be?
How do you know you follow the law?
So if hellfire is only for Satan and his demons, where do the "judged" people go?
So He does judge those who don't follow His law to hell?
In politics that's called "evil dictatorship".
Obey me, or else...
In that context, how can we love the dictator? Is it love or fear?
What choice is that?

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by randyvs

 

Well thanks, but that's all quite vague.
It's what makes it so difficult on this site to debate religious issues sometimes.
One has a sense of Christianity and what most Christians believe, but there are so many variations and even self-styled Christians.
So when discussing good and evil it could be useful to expand a bit on hell or what defines evil?
Is only Satan evil?

Not at all, of course not. I believe he, as he is called the father of lies. Must be the father of evil. All who choose evil are the wicked and it's very clear what there end will be. It also says all who call on the name of the lord shall be saved, so it not like anyone is being asked to complete a marathon.

What law would that be?
How do you know you follow the law?
So if hellfire is only for Satan and his demons, where do the "judged" people go?
So He does judge those who don't follow His law to hell?
In politics that's called "evil dictatorship".
Obey me, or else...
In that context, how can we love the dictator? Is it love or fear?
What choice is that?

Don't get me wrong by no means am I perfect.
If judged people do get tossed on the fire then that is the second death. The Bible states plainly. you want to avoid the second death. Death is the wages of sin not eternal damnation you should no that.

reply to post by randyvs

Thanks for the quick reply my friend.

• Now... if Lucifer fell from grace before man's creation, and the Fall from Grace included an Epic Heavenly Battle in which Lucifer gathered a multitude to attempt a coup d'état... why would this treasonous Lucifer be granted entry into man's Paradise Garden (Eden)? This would be like allowing Hitler entry into the newly created state of Israel..

"One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

- Job 1:6-8

• If Lucifer became God's greatest adversary (Satan) before man's creation... why was this rebel, this conspirator, this evil-doer permitted to freely travel between earth and heaven after he waged war with God? This would be like post-911 Osama bin Laden visiting the White House any time he pleases.


Here is what Jesus said to Satan;

"Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

-Matthew 4:5-7

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" is what Jesus said to Satan.
But here's what happens between Lord God and Satan;

"Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

   Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

- Job 1:8-12

Clear evidence that Satan tempted Lord God with no repercussions to himself. So Satan can tempt God to His face but can not tempt God while talking to Jesus?

See... I'm not getting the logic:

1. Lucifer gathered a host in Heaven to fight against God.
2. Lucifer/Satan is defeated by God and is cast out of Heaven.
3. God creates man and the Paradise Garden of Eden and allows Satan into this earthly Paradise?
4. Satan provides the catalyst to sin against God, thus tarnishing God's newly created mankind.
5. Satan is allowed to travel between Heaven and Earth as stated in the book of Job?
6. After all of this, Satan tempts God to his face in regards to Job's loyalty and faith?

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by Mr_Awesome
reply to post by randyvs

 

I'm simply asking why god would allow an evil being into his garden of paradise?

Obviously god must have known that Satan would try and manipulate Adam and Eve.

Right, and I understood your question, and answered it. I'll explain.
The fact that they knew who God was, should have been enough for them, to obey him and not listen to Satan.
Satan still had free will. So did they. They should have listened to what the one who made them said. Not this other entity. If they would listen to the snake instead of God, then they would listen to the duck or the frog as well.

Actually you didn't answer my question. I am not questioning Adam and Eve's decision at all. My question is about Gods decision to allow Satan into.... sigh.. never mind.

Good luck with your journey.

reply to post by randyvs

Are you not making Satan into a demi-god?
I'd rather accept that God sometimes allows evil for a higher purpose.
There is still little idea on what actions actually define evil.
It seems more that calling on Jesus saves people despite their actions, and a loving person could go to hell for not calling on the Lord, but a psychopath can go to heaven if he says one prayer before he dies.
I think it is greater than running a marathon, because if you do so you must act like you're saved.
It's not just calling on the Lord; faith without works is dead.
If you call on Him and become lukewarm He'll spit you out.

It is better to be hot or cold, and not to call out until the almost final breath.
Becoming faithful brings more sins and responsibilities, like blasphemy and having to stick out your eye if it offends you (taking it literally could get you locked up in the looney bin).
It's better not to get saved until the end - the risk of further angering God and incurring His judgement is thus massively reduced.

Anyway, great post, just wondering.

reply to post by Sahabi


I have to ask, if you are leading me on by asking me questions that require detailed answers. I mean I wasn't present during these times and I'm not a channeler or anything. So I don't have answers to details like you're asking . Hell I don't see how any truthful person could tell what all the circumstances were. I'm just answering you're questions in the way I have made the best sense of all this.. Ka peesh?

• If Lucifer became God's greatest adversary (Satan) before man's creation... why was this rebel, this conspirator, this evil-doer permitted to freely travel between earth and heaven after he waged war with God? This would be like post-911 Osama bin Laden visiting the White House any time he pleases.

Are you positive he dosn't? I mean cause I'm not.


See we don't know what the ground rules are for this adversary. So you can't just make judgements. As i described in my OP there are things we may not be taking in to account. We can't act like we know it all, when we know so little.


I have to quit for awhile you guys . NiNi.

reply to post by Mr_Awesome


I believe trying to judge Gods decision making will only lead to fallacy. All one has to do is look at his track record. Based on past performance alone I can have faith. God knows what he's doing. There is to large a chasm, between us and God ,for me to know why he does everything the way he does. Jesus said , "The spirit is strong, th e flesh is weak". Is there a clue there ? Possibly, I certainly can't say.

Hey, I gave it my best shot.



Half old man

Are you not making Satan into a demi-god?
I'd rather accept that God sometimes allows evil for a higher purpose.
There is still little idea on what actions actually define evil.
It seems more that calling on Jesus saves people despite their actions, and a loving person could go to hell for not calling on the Lord, but a psychopath can go to heaven if he says one prayer before he dies.
I think it is greater than running a marathon, because if you do so you must act like you're saved.
It's not just calling on the Lord; faith without works is dead.
If you call on Him and become lukewarm He'll spit you out.

It is better to be hot or cold, and not to call out until the almost final breath.
Becoming faithful brings more sins and responsibilities, like blasphemy and having to stick out your eye if it offends you (taking it literally could get you locked up in the looney bin).
It's better not to get saved until the end - the risk of further angering God and incurring His judgement is thus massively reduced.

Anyway, great post, just wondering.

God knows the heart of every man. For instance he knows there is absolutly nothing I wouldn't do if he asked it
of me. I would praise him in hell if he asked. Melodramatic? Maybe. But that's how I truly feel As far as this life goes, I'm a sinner. I need forgiveness. I am in error. Not the one who created me. It's not so much that he is keeping track. However if you asked him how many of the hairs on your head, fell out on Feb 2nd 2011. He would have the answer. He is a righteous and true judge. Who has every right to sit in judgement. Even if he has the personality of Xenu. We should be thankful that isn't the case. Can you imagine ?

reply to post by randyvs


Caught red-handed! Yes my friend, I was leading you with my questioning. Not in a way for you to produce detailed answers, but in a way of stepping back to ponder logic and rational thinking. We have Free Will, Logic, Reasoning, and Rational Minds. It would be a travesty to withhold the use of our mental gifts. We can believe however our hearts lead us, but an All Knowing God would not convey His words in a way to confuse people. An All Loving God would not separate people, nor do anything counter-productive to global Peace, Love, Unity, and Equality.

Jesus of the New Testament and Lord God of the Old Testament are two completely different personas, principles, and teachings. Who did Jesus kill, destroy, or command His followers to destroy? Ask this same question about Lord God of the Old Testament. Jesus said a bad tree can not bear good fruit. Jesus is Peace and Love, Lord God is " a Jealous God and a Man of War." If Lord God is a Bad Tree but Jesus is good fruit, the written account of Lord God in the Old Testament must not be the source from which Jesus came.

Peace to you my brother.