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The Knowledge of Good and Evil

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posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by chocise

Originally posted by randyvs
Why did he create Satan? He didn't. He created Lucifer. The brijghtest and most beautiful angel in all of heaven. The Bible says, that one day iniquity was found in him. This to me means this creation, turned against God. Out of his own freewill he made an evil choice.That's when he became Satan.


As I understood it, Satan/Lucifer/Beezlebub [or whatever you want to call it] was God's right-hand-man at one point, but hated mankind & was cast out. He [Satan] then set about trying to destroy humanity, and all creation. God didn't create Satan. Just thought I'd add that. Thanks.

edit on 24-2-2011 by chocise because: (no reason given)


So at least I know my writings have been understood. Thank you Chocise.




posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by chocise

Originally posted by randyvs
Why did he create Satan? He didn't. He created Lucifer. The brijghtest and most beautiful angel in all of heaven. The Bible says, that one day iniquity was found in him. This to me means this creation, turned against God. Out of his own freewill he made an evil choice.That's when he became Satan.


As I understood it, Satan/Lucifer/Beezlebub [or whatever you want to call it] was God's right-hand-man at one point, but hated mankind & was cast out. He [Satan] then set about trying to destroy humanity, and all creation. God didn't create Satan. Just thought I'd add that. Thanks.

edit on 24-2-2011 by chocise because: (no reason given)


god is the beginning and the end so he would of knew that in creating lucifer that he would eventually get satan so therefore in creating lucifer and everything else that pertains to existence god did infact create satan.

your not going to get your cake and eat it to. there is no cop out for god when it comes to this. either he created everything or he didnt make up your mind.
edit on 28-2-2011 by metalholic because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by metalholic
 


I was going to basically say the same thing but you beat me too it. If God is all powerful, Omnipotent. and the prime cause then evil could not arise randomly. In the myth he set up the rules including the potential for evil
and if he has the power to for see the future then he should have known the outcome before he created Lucifer or put that darn tree in the garden. The other possibility in considering this cultural myth is to take the stance that he isn't all powerful that his power might be limited in some way.
I have heard that Lucifer which is latin, not the original hebrew word, is a reference to venus which has become lost
in translation. People ended up tacking on the idea of a war in heaven later on in history when they created the whole Lucifer mythos. The Lucifer Mythos probabley has a lot to more to do with Miltons Paradise Lost then it does the bible.

From what I understand of the Jewish tradition satan is an angel of God that can not oppose God he basically
God's lackey and God uses him to test people which differs from the Christian idea of satan.
So there is not this duel opposing forces of good and evil in the Jewish tradition.

Zoroastrianism from Persia divided good and evil into two duel gods who where in conflict with each other.

In Zoroastrianism, the Creator Ahura Mazda is all good, and no evil originates from Him. Thus, in Zoroastrianism good and evil have distinct sources, with evil (druj) trying to destroy the creation of Mazda (asha), and good trying to sustain it. Mazda is not immanent in the world, and His creation is represented by the Amesha Spentas and the host of other Yazatas, through whom the works of God are evident to humanity, and through whom worship of Mazda is ultimately directed. The most important texts of the religion are those of the Avesta, of which a significant portion has been lost, and mostly only the liturgies of which have survived. The lost portions are known of only through references and brief quotations in the later works, primarily from the 9th to 11th centuries.
en.wikipedia.org...


I feel that Zoroastrianism deals with the concepts of good and evil more logically then the standard Christian
theological model.










edit on 28-2-2011 by ELahrairah because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-2-2011 by ELahrairah because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by metalholic
 





god is the beginning and the end so he would of knew that in creating lucifer that he would eventually get satan so therefore in creating lucifer and everything else that pertains to existence god did infact create satan.


No. I disagree. God created his right hand man Lucifer. When he created Lucifer there was no Satan. Lucifer became Satan of his own choice. Nothing to do with God and certainly not a cop out by any stretch. God being the beginning and the end, if you ask me, means God simply knows what he is doing thru it all. He's there at the beginning and he'll be there at the end. So everything turns out ok as far as he's concerned. Get it.There was a Lucifer when there was no Satan. Now there is Satan and no Lucifer. Like you said you can't have it both ways.
edit on 1-3-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 05:23 AM
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Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


Reminds of the story about the two wolves fighting in your mind. A good one and an evil one. Which one wins? the one that gets fed.

Only it is Jesus and Satan who is in you rmind, and who wins? You do



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by scratchmane
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


Reminds of the story about the two wolves fighting in your mind. A good one and an evil one. Which one wins? the one that gets fed.

Only it is Jesus and Satan who is in you rmind, and who wins? You do




Ahhhh yes, the religion of the two wolves. I know it well.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by scratchmane
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.


Reminds of the story about the two wolves fighting in your mind. A good one and an evil one. Which one wins? the one that gets fed.

Only it is Jesus and Satan who is in you rmind, and who wins? You do




Ahhhh yes, the religion of the two wolves. I know it well.


How do you incorporate the Isaiah saying, vis-a-vis Jesus/Satan? Doesn't the Isaiah lines say that God is Both?



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Mr_Awesome
 





Not so clever of god to standby and allow the free will of Adam and Eve to manipulated by Satan now was it.


Are you implying that Adam and Eve didn't know any better and needed a baby sitter? They knew who god was. Come on !


According to the story Adam and Eve had to eat some magic fruit to know the difference between good and evil

So yes given that A&E had just been poofted into existence, yes they needed a baby sitter

Mr Awesome’s point is correct A&E didn’t get to exercise their free will because:

A) they didn’t have all the facts (needed to eat magic fruit to get knowledge of good and evil in the first place to know that what they where doing was ether good or evil)

B) A&E’s choice was influenced by an older and more intelligent entity (for example an adult could get a young child to do something illegal the child is not at fault in such a case but the adult is)

Any lawyer could get the whole case dropped in a hot second - and probably damages awarded



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by Mr_Awesome
reply to post by randyvs
 


I'm simply asking why god would allow an evil being into his garden of paradise?

Obviously god must have known that Satan would try and manipulate Adam and Eve.


Right, and I understood your question, and answered it. I'll explain.
The fact that they knew who God was, should have been enough for them, to obey him and not listen to Satan.
Satan still had free will. So did they. They should have listened to what the one who made them said. Not this other entity. If they would listen to the snake instead of God, then they would listen to the duck or the frog as well.


If god made Lucifer but he made him with an imperfection such that he would become Satan then the original fault belongs to the creator

If I write a computer program and what I write has flaws and the program goes on to cause havoc then it’s not the programs fault, it’s my fault as the creator of the program



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by scratchmane
 





How do you incorporate the Isaiah saying, vis-a-vis Jesus/Satan? Doesn't the Isaiah lines say that God is Both?


Just take it in the most simplistic way possible. He created everything which gives him dominion over all of it.

Racasan

Does your program have freewill?
edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 08:42 AM
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If I write a computer program and what I write has flaws and the program goes on to cause havoc then it’s not the programs fault, it’s my fault as the creator of the program


Yes if it was just a program, you are right, programs have strict rules and have no free will.
What you would imply would make us all robots.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78


If I write a computer program and what I write has flaws and the program goes on to cause havoc then it’s not the programs fault, it’s my fault as the creator of the program


Yes if it was just a program, you are right, programs have strict rules and have no free will.
What you would imply would make us all robots.


well first
en.wikipedia.org...

moving on
If anyone creates any-thing and that thing does not function as the creator wishes then the creator is at fault

The story goes, Bible god created Lucifer, Lucifer then apparently malfunctioned and became Satan -the fault for that is bible god’s shoddy workmanship
– unless the story is recursive and satan was actually tempted to rebel by a talking- three toed tree sloth or a tap-dancing spiny sea urchin

And if this Satan character then goes on and bollixes up bible gods other stuff then its still bible god who is at fault



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by racasan
 




sloth or a tap-dancing spiny sea urchin


Fail.
Forgive me . I forgot this was the part of the thread where you just ignore the words free will. Then redress the same question several times. Which of coarse at this point I say oh right my mistake. I conceed.
edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


If the design has free will built into it then the designer had better be prepared to accept anything the creation does

Including the rejection of the designer



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by randyvs
 


If the design has free will built into it then the designer had better be prepared to accept anything the creation does

Including the rejection of the designer


And what makes you think he wasn't prepaired ? Did a bell go off at the end of round 15 ? I don't see the flashing sign that says Ahhh times up. God knows what he's doing. If it dosn't make any sense to you, do you know how much it bothers him? Do you honestly think God should do everything the way you think he should ? That's absolutly narcissistic at best. I mean I'll admit you make yourself appear intelligent. With your edumacation and all dat. Then we have the appearence of your ego. All bets are off and the baby goes right out with the window, with the bathwater. How many years of college, for this over inflatted ego, that is responsible for as far I can tell, your God complex? I wish I could help you man I really do. But you know way to much, for me to convince you that you don't.
edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


Relax, I’m just pointing out the plot-holes in the bible story



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by racasan
 


I'm relaxed. Believe me stud if appear agitated it's just a misconception. The last thing I'm ever going to get
upset at? Is one the conversations I have here in this forum. I 've been heavily tested man. I'm good. Perhaps
the ego thing is also a misconception. But you'll just have to forgive that as the percentage of egotisticles is quite high. So lets move on then. I think we understand each other.
edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)


I have to disappear for a bit Pepsi can provide you with fantastic answers. Just from what little I've seen so be back in an hour or two.

Pepsi

edit on 6-4-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 11:08 AM
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moving on
If anyone creates any-thing and that thing does not function as the creator wishes then the creator is at fault

Not really, free will states in contradiction to what you say. The ability to learn comes from making decisions based on your free will so let me explain where your flaw is.

When you are born you do not know anything at all ?
I would argue with you that when we are born there is no software ? so the software comes as we go, we write the programing of what we like it to be based on what we learn and what we pick, what we see around us.
So there is really no programing when we start out, so what you do is based on what you learn and what you like. Of course as kids, we go wrong with no expiriance at all and lack of understanding. We do bad deeds and don't care as children or teenagers, it's later in life that we grasp a perception.

I would indentify this with "walk in my shoes" and see how it is, based on this we see it's horrible for the other person and how that would feel applied to us, we then see how much a person can hurt based on what we would feel. This of course does not happen to all of us, some go on and do even more bad deeds, crimes and so on...ignorant fools.


Back on our discussion and what it resumes to.
What you insist on is on some sort of brainwashing program that is implemented before we are born to the outside world. It's wrong of course, a fresh born child does not even know how to walk, you have to teach it how.




edit on 6-4-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Good Reply!

And To Find Out Who Has True LOVE! All Will Be Tested... As The Angels 1/3 Fell, Rebelled.


Men and Women are Tested!


It all boils down to free will. If God made us unable to deny his existence, we would be unable to choose to love Him. Frequent, “impressive displays of miracle” would go further than merely doing “nothing to foster love.” Rather, they would render us much less able to choose to love God. It would take a fool indeed to reject a God whose existence is completely undeniable. And if we could not deny God, we would be nothing more than puppets.


"Verily, Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour" (Isa. 45:15).



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Mr_Awesome

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by Mr_Awesome
reply to post by randyvs
 


I'm simply asking why god would allow an evil being into his garden of paradise?

Obviously god must have known that Satan would try and manipulate Adam and Eve.


Right, and I understood your question, and answered it. I'll explain.
The fact that they knew who God was, should have been enough for them, to obey him and not listen to Satan.
Satan still had free will. So did they. They should have listened to what the one who made them said. Not this other entity. If they would listen to the snake instead of God, then they would listen to the duck or the frog as well.


Actually you didn't answer my question. I am not questioning Adam and Eve's decision at all. My question is about Gods decision to allow Satan into.... sigh.. never mind.

Good luck with your journey.



I believe it was to give birth to Adam and Eve's free will,
You see there would be no need for free will if they had only one choice,meaning,
that satan was allowed into Eden to serve God's purposes, which is also true today
in the life of a believer.


I believe that Randyvs said it most eloquently, God does not wish us to love him
because we have no other choice, that would be a dictatorship and we would be
like robots,hence freewill is introduced by the way of satan.

As far as the comments from others about hell and what not,if a person is punished in the after life, it is only due to their own choice.



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