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Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
We know that the mind is a product of the brain.
The mind needs the brain in order to function and interact consciously in this material reality.
There is a strong relationship between mind and brain, but there is currently no falsifiable theory that mind is a product of brain.
in the USA they happen to be right. the church of atheism is a tax exempt religious institution, that must say something about american atheism.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Well, the U.S. Supreme Court was wrong on that. Also, how does American Constitutional law have any bearing on what is or is not truth?
it is still a belief, but more like a statement really.
A lack of belief is not belief.
gay-pride and black-power groups do not deal with deities or lack of belief, this is why they are not religious institutions but atheism deals directly with deities and more specifically the God of christianity. This is why the courts have recognized it as a religious right and it is protected under freedom of speech in the USA, in contrast -- so is satanism.
It doesn't.
well that's not the only thing ministers can do, they get the same privileges as other churches, even legal access to prison inmates, ect. Have you read the faq at the first church of atheism website ?
So people can have private legal secular marriages. And not all atheists belong to this 'church'.
Can atheism really have a church? A church is defined as an association of people who share a particular belief system. So yes, a church of atheism can really exist.
What do I have to do to start my own congregation? Once you become an ordained minister, you can begin preaching to a congregation immediately.
Will I be a minister in the eyes of the law? Yes, you will be a legally ordained minister. You will be able to perform every task that a clergy member can perform.
Are there any privileges of being a minister? Ministers command a level of respect from the general public. Some parking lots have reserved parking for clergy. You will have clergy level access to prisons and hospitals. You will also have the ability to form your own congregation.
Originally posted by SisyphusRide
in the USA they happen to be right.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Well, the U.S. Supreme Court was wrong on that. Also, how does American Constitutional law have any bearing on what is or is not truth?
the church of atheism is a tax exempt religious institution, that must say something about american atheism.
it is still a belief, but more like a statement really.
A lack of belief is not belief.
gay-pride and black-power groups do not deal with deities or lack of belief, this is why they are not religious institutions
It doesn't.
but atheism deals directly with deities and more specifically the God of christianity.
This is why the courts have recognized it as a religious right and it is protected under freedom of speech in the USA,
in contrast -- so is satanism.
well that's not the only thing ministers can do, they get the same privileges as other churches, even legal access to prison inmates, ect. Have you read the faq at the first church of atheism website ?
So people can have private legal secular marriages. And not all atheists belong to this 'church'.
Can atheism really have a church? A church is defined as an association of people who share a particular belief system. So yes, a church of atheism can really exist.
What do I have to do to start my own congregation? Once you become an ordained minister, you can begin preaching to a congregation immediately.
Will I be a minister in the eyes of the law? Yes, you will be a legally ordained minister. You will be able to perform every task that a clergy member can perform.
Are there any privileges of being a minister? Ministers command a level of respect from the general public. Some parking lots have reserved parking for clergy. You will have clergy level access to prisons and hospitals. You will also have the ability to form your own congregation.
so can someone explain the difference to me again ?
I will not go into his personal life at the moment, lets just say it has to do with a failed marriage and the schooling of his child.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by SisyphusRide
Disgruntled? How is a frankly refined and well-spoken Oxford scholar disgruntled?
I have a general idea of what Steven Weinberg is hinting at here in this video, so I guess it is for the audience to decide ?
Militant? How is he militant?
ha! what a sore loser. Is this your rational and professional opening? you almost sound as smug as Dawkins himself
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Ah, ethnocentric arrogance combined with ignoranec! My favorite!
Strange how you guys often feel it necessary to point out, that you are 'winners' and/or your opponents 'losers'.
Could you, as a conterpoint to your claims, present your own systematic methodology, by which you validate christian doctrines. As it is now, you appear to believe, that scholastic is logic, and that rhetoric is sound 'general semantics'.
... and when you for some reason choose to center on this word as a central part of your argument, ...
The original problem could have been solved, if Awake_and_aware had been asked to clarify 'obvious'.
It's this kind of nitpicking sidetracks, which disturbs a tread no end.
Originally posted by SisyphusRide
ha! what a sore loser.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Ah, ethnocentric arrogance combined with ignoranec! My favorite!
Is this your rational and professional opening?
you almost sound as smug as Dawkins himself
decorum mr madness, decorum...
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by stuncrazy
And I'd say...you don't. But they're both founded in reason, so you argue philosophy with reason.
Not entirely. We know that the mind is a product of the brain.
...that wasn't my point. I'm saying that a computer can play a movie, something we as humans are unable to do. Our mind is also unable to store the amount of information that a computer can store. We cannot run algorithmic functions at anywhere near the speed of a computer.
We also cannot process visual images perfectly. The majority of visual information at any given moment is actually ignored, hence why we can watch a video of people passing a basketball around and not notice the guy in a gorilla costume walking by.
Our brain is amazing, but computers have overtaken us in some key areas.
...You can prove philosophy, it's the entire basis of the field of logic. You can prove certain assertions. Of course, you can't prove them all, but you can point out logical holes to disprove some assertions.
Slavery is wrong. Commanding a slave to remain subservient to a master is wrong. Commanding women to stay silent and not teach men is wrong. The concept of eternally punishing individuals for finite crimes is wrong.
Philosophy is a man made word too. In fact, all words are man made. Or woman made, don't want to exclude the great women of history.
philosophy
1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
*snip*
source
I italicized the part you seem to be missing.
You do realize that definition 9 (and wow, going down to 9 means it's one of the least used versions) is the metaphoric definition of 'spiritual' correct? It's the same way that an a-spiritualist would speak of the 'soul'. I don't believe in a soul, but I understand the use of the term as a metaphor.
Except that we are physical beings in a physical world. We have evidence of the physical and no evidence of anything beyond the physical.
Where is the philosophy of the Bible? I've yet to see any systematic practice of reason in the scriptures. I've yet to see any intellectual practice in the Bible. I've read the thing a few times over and see no philosophy, merely religion.
Psalm 1 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Scripture: Luke 7:40-50
40 And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?" 41 "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" 50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Scripture: Luke 14:1, 7-14
1 One sabbath when he went to dine at the house of a ruler who belonged to the Pharisees, they were watching him. 7 Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he marked how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 8 "When you are invited by any one to a marriage feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest a more eminent man than you be invited by him; 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, `Give place to this man,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, `Friend, go up higher'; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. 11 For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." 12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
The word you are looking for isn't 'know', it's 'believe'. Unless you have any evidence for it, you cannot know it.
And how would a perfect being write a text that has demonstrable flaw?
Well, 'on a drunken bender' would be the only explanation for how flawed, inconsistent, and frankly vindictive it sounds.
Because 'infinity' is an abstract concept of our own imagining. We imagined an idea greater than our ability to comprehend, isn't that kinky?
Direct me to the philosophy contained within the Bible.
Scripture: Matthew 9:14-17 (Mark 2:21 f.; Luke 5:36-39)
14 Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" 15 And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 And no one puts a piece of unsprung cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. 17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."
So your deity, who claims to give us free will, is allowed to violate free will now? That's moronic.
So that excuses mass rape and genocide?
Please, back up this claim with some sort of argument, because I'd like to see how you derived this conclusion from the Biblical texts.
You didn't seem to address this query, as the quote remained unaddressed...
3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Except they are different in subtle and frankly unsubstantial ways. Any job that a man can do a woman can do either as good as or sometimes better than a man.
Of course, the Bible preaches such hateful things as:
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Apparently only men can file for divorce.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
...
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Paul really has some horrible things to say about women. Now, if women aren't supposed to teach...well...that's silly. I would go to quite lengthy extremes to have a lesson in science from Madame Curie or Jane Goodall.
Um...how does the rib not make her of lesser value?
And we know the 'Adam' and 'Eve' didn't exist..
Le sigh...not this sexist crap again.
So what about all of the contributions to society from working women? Should we just forsake them? Man, we'd have been set back decades if Marie Curie hadn't studied radiation (she was the greater scientist in her relationship).
As do men. Hell, in some species the males are the primary care givers of young.
“Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, children, a reward… Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons… Happy is the man who has filled his quiver with them” (Psalm 127:3-5).
“Now if anyone does not provide for his own relatives, and especially for his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Timothy 5:8).
When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Citation needed.
And what about scientific instincts? Achievement instincts? What about the women that actually want to do more with their life than act as reproductive services and care givers? Do women not have an equal right to create, to explore, to live?
See above. And I can provide more, as those are just in reference to women.
I've thought all sorts of horrible things that I never acted upon. I've been wronged before and wished to do much harm on others. Instead of rejecting that I even had those thoughts I did the healthy thing and came to terms with the fact that I had unhealthy thoughts and that it is better to simply reason out that those actions are destructive rather than constructive.
Jesus claimed that to think of a sin is to have sinned, when it really isn't. Unless you're in an Orwellian dystopia.
So it's a utilitarian document? The greatest good for the greatest number? How is the greatest good defined here?
Really? Please, show me where it says that.
So your argument forms a complete circle. There's no end point and no conclusion, merely a circular statement. How about explaining how that is.
Yes, it's a redundant statement. It is what it is.
Except that is not a logical conclusion based upon the words in the Bible. Please, show me a citation in the original Hebrew text of the Bible that allows you to make this translation.
1-4 are unnecessary and 10 or 9-10 depending on your tradition isn't actually a bad thing. Coveting is the basis for improving the self.
To preach rather than to discuss. To talk at rather than talk to.
No, Josephus mentions "Kristos", the anointed one. Jesus isn't the only person ever anointed. The other issue is that there was a Jesus who was anointed who was a chief priest.
And here's the crazy thing, Josephus isn't contemporaneous with the life of Jesus. If Jesus were a real character, then Josephus would have been born ~5 years after the death of this character.
And he told people to abandon their families after doing so...which meant a family was going to become destitute.
He spoke out against the establishment...to call the Jewish religion a 'church' is to use a term that hadn't been invented yet and is slightly misrepresentative. And yes, he had some seedy friends, which is one of the things I don't have a problem with. Jesus said some fine things, he just wasn't perfect (and nobody is).
Ah, the old 'My assumed religious beliefs are shown to be true because you're arguing against them' con. And yes, it's a con.
I don't hate the truth. I just think that Jesus and the New Testament as a whole espouse some demonstrably immoral teachings.
Now, if you want this to be a philosophical debate, how about you bother to demonstrate how the teachings of Jesus are moral?
No clue. Got any numbers?
how much has poverty grown?
It shrank. There may be more poor people now, but that's only because there are more people. The percentage of the world that is poor is much smaller than it used to be. The global economy is uplifting people.
what about sickness?
Sickness? I'm sorry, but we're healthier than we've ever been. Sure, we have a couple of incredibly dangerous diseases that we didn't used to have like AIDS, but people in the developed world don't die of dysentery anymore. The flu isn't a near death sentence. Infant mortality is down. Polio is nearly eradicated, smallpox is eradicated.
We're healthier than we've ever been, all we have to do is spread this health to the developing world.
STD's?
Well, STDs aren't as big of a problem as they used to be due to better understanding of medicine.
This passage:
1Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Because the deity in question guided them to being selfish. Choosing one small tribal group out of all of the world and telling them that they are the chosen people of the creator of the universe and that they can go and commit genocide against a whole slew of city-states is always going to backfire.
Then the opposite: infinite reward for finite good deeds.
Be mindful, but not punished.
Of course, even if all of the moral lessons of the Bible were true, it wouldn't speak to the validity of the claim of whether or not a deity exists.
So because I pointed out that you were being arrogant in an ethnocentric manner (US law has no bearing on the rest of the world) ...
... you were being arrogant ...and ignorant
Attack arguments, not people.
well I think he should stay in his own field least he pursue a new degree.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by SisyphusRide
Dawkins is an acomplished evolutionary (micro) biologist. But he's humble enough to admit that Physics attempts to rationalise the fundamentals of reality whereas Dawkins studies are more an attempt to rationalise the complexity of reality, specifically....life. He is humble enough in that video to that he is just a "mere" biologist in comparison to the acomplished Physicist.
so is this a thread where we get to attack atheists or one where atheists get to defend their stance using their number 1 tool/weapon as I have heard it said... (evolution)
Dawkin's work and studies are brilliant, he's showed that the fundamental idea of evolution IS a fact, and provable with DNA. Evolution has flaws and some evidence is hard to explain, but the fundamental theory of evolution is TRUE - Just see madness's avatar.
actually I live in a country where my freedom of expression can be exercised on the national lawn, I would rather burn one of his books to protest his gawd awful attitude and pompous nature, for that alone I am not even interested in what he has to say, not that I have not seen enough of his attitude in videos.
Read one of his books.
actually the "physicist" in that video stated that most physicist believe in the God of order, or Einstein's God. This God sounds very familiar to me and this God of order they speak of does not reside in the universe like pantheism's god(s) do, but that is a topic for another debate imo.
Both scientists agree in that video that GOd can only be used as a metaphor as you cannot "define" God. You can only take the Pantheism stance. Nature is God. Obviously is more complex than what we currently understand. But Supernatural attributations seem to disppear as science discovers more truth.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Again, argumentum ad hominem. Please, address my arguments rather than a single line.
Originally posted by stuncrazy
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Not entirely. We know that the mind is a product of the brain.
true, but what is the purpose? evolution is a product of necessity. what was the necessity?
even more so how did the mind create it's own reality?
which came first the mind or the universe?
Our brain is amazing, but computers have overtaken us in some key areas.
maybe the conscience mind, but mostly because we have been so dumbed down by society, and everything it clings to.
subconsciously though, there is no comparison. our minds know things without being taught.
at birth our minds understand the laws of physics. we understand kinetics.
the processing speed of our minds is unbelievable.
decision making will never be mimicked by a computer, at least not literally. it may act like it is making a decision, a computer will always simply do what it's told to do.
Slavery is wrong. Commanding a slave to remain subservient to a master is wrong. Commanding women to stay silent and not teach men is wrong. The concept of eternally punishing individuals for finite crimes is wrong.
yes forced slavery is wrong.
in response to your women comment i'll say this. What is the most important part of society from a philosophical standpoint?
what is the most pivotal part of society? what is the greatest determinant of future behavior?
Philosophy is a man made word too. In fact, all words are man made. Or woman made, don't want to exclude the great women of history.
i meant it is a label used to cause the deception of difference.
philosophy
1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
*snip*
source
I italicized the part you seem to be missing.
no i understand that part. i like to think i am a man of intellect.
You do realize that definition 9 (and wow, going down to 9 means it's one of the least used versions) is the metaphoric definition of 'spiritual' correct? It's the same way that an a-spiritualist would speak of the 'soul'. I don't believe in a soul, but I understand the use of the term as a metaphor.
what is your definition of a soul? what do you consider consciousness?
Except that we are physical beings in a physical world. We have evidence of the physical and no evidence of anything beyond the physical.
no we are beings of the conscience.
if we didn't perceive the reality, then this discussion wouldn't matter. in fact nothing would matter. what is a universe if there is nothing to perceive it? does reality exist without the realization of it?
Where is the philosophy of the Bible? I've yet to see any systematic practice of reason in the scriptures. I've yet to see any intellectual practice in the Bible. I've read the thing a few times over and see no philosophy, merely religion.
firstly because you are trying to see the religion in it.
once again Jesus battled religion (religion and the established order of things are the same. the only difference is religion states it can hurt you even after death.)
secondly it's every where
Psalm 1 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Scripture: Luke 7:40-50
40 And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?" 41 "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43 Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" 50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Scripture: Luke 14:1, 7-14
1 One sabbath when he went to dine at the house of a ruler who belonged to the Pharisees, they were watching him. 7 Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he marked how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 8 "When you are invited by any one to a marriage feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest a more eminent man than you be invited by him; 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, `Give place to this man,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, `Friend, go up higher'; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. 11 For every one who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." 12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
The word you are looking for isn't 'know', it's 'believe'. Unless you have any evidence for it, you cannot know it.
And how would a perfect being write a text that has demonstrable flaw?
i have seen no flaw.
Well, 'on a drunken bender' would be the only explanation for how flawed, inconsistent, and frankly vindictive it sounds.
beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.
Because 'infinity' is an abstract concept of our own imagining. We imagined an idea greater than our ability to comprehend, isn't that kinky?
although true, infinity is still a reality.
Dire ct me to the philosophy contained within the Bible.
Scripture: Matthew 9:14-17 (Mark 2:21 f.; Luke 5:36-39)
14 Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" 15 And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 And no one puts a piece of unsprung cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. 17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."
if you need an explanation of these please ask.
So your deity, who claims to give us free will, is allowed to violate free will now? That's moronic.
oh the free will part. gotcha. you are completely ignoring the fact that there is the other side. you can't blame God for the devil's work.
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
God simply stopped whispering in his ear and allowed him to make a decision without the intervention of his spirit. which hardened his heart.
you know i truly believe it's like the good angel and the bad angel on your shoulder kind of thing. except there was no good angel on the pharaoh's shoulder.
So that excuses mass rape and genocide?
don't blame God for the folly of man.
romans 12
3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Except they are different in subtle and frankly unsubstantial ways. Any job that a man can do a woman can do either as good as or sometimes better than a man.
i said man is no greater than women but different and should play a different role.
man should care for and harvest the land
and women should care for and harvest man(kind)
Of course, the Bible preaches such hateful things as:
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Apparently only men can file for divorce.
God hates divorce.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
marriage is a covenant between man and women
in your stated quote he is warning man not to force a women into commit adultery for that sin lies on the hand of the man.
as a christian, the sin of the world is your responsibility. you know better they don't. dying on the cross Jesus plead. forgive them father for they know not what they do.
Paul really has some horrible things to say about women. Now, if women aren't supposed to teach...well...that's silly. I would go to quite lengthy extremes to have a lesson in science from Madame Curie or Jane Goodall.
it is quite a new phenomena, what is called the equality of women.
everything was created for it's purpose. (we'll have the creation evolution discussion another time.)
it has always been culturally accepted that the man was the head.
one can argue whether women doing the jobs that man should be doing is a good thing or a bad thing. it's all a matter of perspective.
i for one say the family is far more important than the mother father or any child. thus the best alternative for the whole should be the route taken.
so for the sake of family value i agree with these said statements.
again women is the glory of man. meaning a women is a gift to man. a much cherished gift. something that is worked for and earned. something that is honored and because she is honored she glorifies the man.
Um...how does the rib not make her of lesser value?
And we know the 'Adam' and 'Eve' didn't exist..
take it as a metaphor. it was taken from the middle not the upper portion and not the lower portion. (we're not debating the science of creation right now)
Le sigh...not this sexist crap again.
family centered thinking is not sexist.
So what about all of the contributions to society from working women? Should we just forsake them? Man, we'd have been set back decades if Marie Curie hadn't studied radiation (she was the greater scientist in her relationship).
you believe knowledge of this world brings happiness.
happiness should be the most seeked of all prizes.
everlasting happiness not momentary pleasure.
chasing after the world is a chasing after the wind. you'll never catch it.
the more questions you answer the more questions are asked.
while it helps progression it leaves no depth. no depth of life. depth is internal, why search external things for internal matters?
what does this world have to give me? inside me everything that i need. (except substinance(s/p?))
As do men. Hell, in some species the males are the primary care givers of young.
i'm not saying men are incapable, but women are better suited.
stop making it sound as though i down or the bible down women.
to me there is nothing greater than being a father and doing my job as a father. my calling as a father is far more important to me than my calling in this world. to love, provide, and guide my children is my #1 priority.
and it is my stance that the family is priority #1.
“Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, children, a reward… Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons… Happy is the man who has filled his quiver with them” (Psalm 127:3-5).
“Now if anyone does not provide for his own relatives, and especially for his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Timothy 5:8).
if you can keep to this then do what you will to provide for the rest of the world.
mark 2:17
When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Citation needed.
family centered thinking
And what about scientific instincts? Achievement instincts? What about the women that actually want to do more with their life than act as reproductive services and care givers? Do women not have an equal right to create, to explore, to live?
you are taking the stance that the individual is more important then the whole. it's not. what is best for the greater good is best for the individual.
this is why to follow Christ is to take up your cross. self-sacrifice. you do what is best for your brother/sister not what is best for yourself.
why? because if everyone did it bam utopia
See above. And I can provide more, as those are just in reference to women.
not in my eyes.
Jesus claimed that to think of a sin is to have sinned, when it really isn't. Unless you're in an Orwellian dystopia.
do you believed you will be punished for this sin?
it is simply the judgment of oneself. you determine you don't want to have those thoughts. make the choice not to have those thoughts.
self-restraint is not a bad thing.
So it's a utilitarian document? The greatest good for the greatest number? How is the greatest good defined here?
if all did the greatest good, there would be no greatest number for that number would encompass all.
Really? Please, show me where it says that.
we are all the body of Christ. i don't need to cite my reference that is too common of a theme in the new testament.
So your argument forms a complete circle. There's no end point and no conclusion, merely a circular statement. How about explaining how that is.
what that the individual makes up the whole?
Yes, it's a redundant statement. It is what it is.
Except that is not a logical conclusion based upon the words in the Bible. Please, show me a citation in the original Hebrew text of the Bible that allows you to make this translation.
ok from our understanding God is Everywhere at every time and he knows all. to be everywhere he would have to be everything.
God proclaims himself to be the light of the world.
everything is made of light Everything.
if God is light. He is everything. He is all that he is. everything is a part of the whole.
not only is he the collective he is so intricate he is the singularity as well.
every individual reality makes the whole reality. you cannot have one without the other.
1-4 are unnecessary and 10 or 9-10 depending on your tradition isn't actually a bad thing. Coveting is the basis for improving the self.
coveting is wanting. as in to win the most coveted prize. or the most wanted.
To preach rather than to discuss. To talk at rather than talk to.
i thought we were discussing.
No, Josephus mentions "Kristos", the anointed one. Jesus isn't the only person ever anointed. The other issue is that there was a Jesus who was anointed who was a chief priest.
And here's the crazy thing, Josephus isn't contemporaneous with the life of Jesus. If Jesus were a real character, then Josephus would have been born ~5 years after the death of this character.
yea most of the historians that mentioned what is to believed to be Christ. mention something along those lines.
source
And he told people to abandon their families after doing so...which meant a family was going to become destitute.
you also have to understand it was as in the days of noah. the corruption of man had reached horrible levels. the much needed task was the reestablishment of morals in society.
He spoke out against the establishment...to call the Jewish religion a 'church' is to use a term that hadn't been invented yet and is slightly misrepresentative. And yes, he had some seedy friends, which is one of the things I don't have a problem with. Jesus said some fine things, he just wasn't perfect (and nobody is).
what do you consider perfect?
the roman catholic church is the establishment as well. we fight against the principalities and powers.
Ah, the old 'My assumed religious beliefs are shown to be true because you're arguing against them' con. And yes, it's a con.
I don't hate the truth. I just think that Jesus and the New Testament as a whole espouse some demonstrably immoral teachings.
Now, if you want this to be a philosophical debate, how about you bother to demonstrate how the teachings of Jesus are moral?
this would take up a lot more room and time. i'm quite exhausted at this point as it is.
No clue. Got any numbers?
how much has poverty grown?
It shrank. There may be more poor people now, but that's only because there are more people. The percentage of the world that is poor is much smaller than it used to be. The global economy is uplifting people.
what about sickness?
Sickness? I'm sorry, but we're healthier than we've ever been. Sure, we have a couple of incredibly dangerous diseases that we didn't used to have like AIDS, but people in the developed world don't die of dysentery anymore. The flu isn't a near death sentence. Infant mortality is down. Polio is nearly eradicated, smallpox is eradicated.
We're healthier than we've ever been, all we have to do is spread this health to the developing world.
STD's?
Well, STDs aren't as big of a problem as they used to be due to better understanding of medicine.
This passage:
1Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Because the deity in question guided them to being selfish. Choosing one small tribal group out of all of the world and telling them that they are the chosen people of the creator of the universe and that they can go and commit genocide against a whole slew of city-states is always going to backfire.
it back-fired because they made it back-fire.
once again you have taken satan out of the discussion. they were his chosen ones. satan wanted to make sure they didn't do as he said.
underneath it all is a battle of good and evil. this ultimately is just a show and proof that God's law and perfect adherence to it is the only way to true happiness.
Then the opposite: infinite reward for finite good deeds.
it's not a reward. leading a life of self-sacrifice and self-restraint makes it possible for you to dwell in heaven.
if you were the king of a utopian society would you allow someone in that was gonna mess it up for everyone else?
it takes only one bad seed to ruin the bunch.
Be mindful, but not punished.
who exactly is doing the punishment? it is for your own sake that you follow said rules. if i am wronged but i let it go it is not i who suffers but he who wronged me.
Of course, even if all of the moral lessons of the Bible were true, it wouldn't speak to the validity of the claim of whether or not a deity exists.
it would to me.
because book that was written over a span of 2000 thousand years by over 60 writers work so fluently together.