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Originally posted by Golden Boy
If A is defined as an object whose existence results in effect X, then we can know if A does not exist if X has not been effected.
Originally posted by ItsMeCB
I didn't read most of the replies cause there were so many. I just wanted to say I am Christian but do I hate or bash atheists? nah. I don't care about beliefs or unbeliefs of other religions either, I don't argue with people who say they don't believe what I do or make fun of the fact that yes I believe the bible as truth. I don't try to push my faith in other people faces which in my opinion is a huge turn off & I do get that some people have been put off by a bad experience or just don't care to hear anything about any religion.All I know is what I believe & if you have belief or rather unbelief about something why should you get mad when someone attacks it if you believe it as truth? I can respect atheism and expect the same, I don't make snide comments or make fun of it or other religions but am expected to defend myself when someone does it to me .Don't get me wrong I really don't care if someone makes fun, I'm open minded and can listen to others like an adult I wish I could say that about everyone including christians.
I said the same thing you just have, ItsMeCB, but the lack of any response or acknowledgement of my saying it was deafening!
The atheists here want opposition, it makes them feel validated...
Vicky
The atheists here want opposition, it makes them feel validated...
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Atheism generally derives from agnosticism - Agnostic Atheism - There is no (current) evidence to assert a belief in a supernatural deity. God still may be true though, it's just religion is OBVIOUSLY false and man-made and un-verifiable.edit on 17/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by sinohptik
That would be the answer to the question, the rest was fluff.
I get where you are coming from now.
[A] was not previously defined as such an object.
If the very existence of A results in said actions, then this would be a direct causal relationship. If the described attributable action does not take place, then nothing can be attributed to A. What one can figure out is the that validity of X was in question from the beginning, which would likely be sourced within the individual perspectives being invalid empirically. I see that it is setup as "if [A causes an effect [X]], and X does not happen, then [A causes an effect [X]] = 0, but that seems to me is the definition of "throwing the baby out with the bath water." Though perhaps that is the intent, in a specific bid to invalidate certain God(s)?
If such a thought process is followed through, then A only comes into existence during X.
How does this "[A if and only if X]" reconcile that X is a derivative of A? This would point much more closely to the error in perception of X, or error in the perceived relationship between X and A, than invalidating A itself.
this scenario is also bringing conscious action into the equation as well, and not simply ambient continuous effect. If A does not exist, then X will not exist, as a contained subsystem within a system, a derivative. However, how does proving X does not exist, as a contained subsystem within A, invalidate anything more than X?
The red sea, for example, was supposedly allowed to return to its natural form, and was its natural form before the event. meaning, it was only temporarily parted. How does such a variable event factor into the equation?
Now, if during testing, one sees that frequently and consistently, when X=1 then A=1, then that would point to a causal relationship, but say nothing about the nature of A if such a relationship isnt perceived or observed to be present.
i also have difficulty understanding how it wouldnt be more likely that X was misunderstood as being in a causal relationship with A in the first place, rather than saying anything about the "cause" because a specific "effect" was or was not observed.
Not observing an individual facet results in not observing an individual facet, and not necessarily anything to do with the containing system, or [A]. especially not when X is purely subjective.
To determine whether or not [A] exists, it must take the place of X as the subject of query.
I still struggle to see this causal relationship you think is so obvious, as i still see X being a derivative of A. please understand, this is not to debate or attack, so i suppose its off topic Just trying to understand your logic.
and sorry for being so "flawed"
No, there's obviously nothing obvious about your assertion...If religion was as obviously false as ypu claim, then atheists would be the majority, not the minority.. and that would upset you very much, because you guys so love to be the very special clever majority!
...an unfalsifiable hypotheis... You may be proved wrong some
day...
Off the bat: argumentum ad populum. Logical fallacy...and that's it.
Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by Golden Boy
How does "A require X?"
I still see it as saying something similar to "[the Golden Boy who parted the red sea], exists if and only if, the red sea was parted."
If the red sea was not parted, it would be an assumption that X was invalid (but still open to speculation), and that there is still the possibility of Golden Boy being a valid subject of query.
Originally posted by Golden Boy
adjensen's challenge was not that I disprove every possible version of some god. It was that I couldn't disprove any god at all.
Originally posted by stuncrazy
my question is how do attack a philosophical question with logic?
with all the science we have on the brain we cannot with absolute certainty show the mechanic's of it. we can show you what it does, but we cannot tell you why or how it does it.
our brains are more powerful than supercomputers. like big time.
how do you approach a philosophical book with physics or any other type of science?
Socrates, and Plato were great minds with wonderful ideas of the spirit. temperament and the like. you could say they were "illuminated" but would you attack their philosophical theories with the scientific method? no of course you wouldn't.
the bible is a philosophical book.
if you're going argue about it at least argue about the important part of it.
the whole of the book is a book of ethics and philosophical theories.
the stories they tell hold morals. there is a lesson to be learned in every single one of them.
the central message of the bible is that every person matters because every individual makes up the whole.
unconditionally love your fellow man. honor, courage, love, and speak the truth, even unto death.
so by quoting all the horrible things in the old testament. these are the very things that killed the main character, but you see something amazing happened.
in his short ministry he teaches us how we should live our lives.
i'm not talking about your job or the necessities of life. i'm talking about in our interaction with others. it tells us what kind of person we should be. in his wisdom he told us in regards to rules and regulations it's pretty simple.
Love God(or the collective whole) with all your heart, mind, soul and strength
I'm sorry, but how is "God" the collective whole? God is a being represented as an actual thing, not a metaphorical thing.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Was already old hat in quite a few parts of the world at that time.
oh this guy he was a smart mouth too. He was healing people left and right he was raising people from the dead.
All with no sort of historical documentation beyond a few third hand accounts written a couple of decades after he supposedly existed....
Of course, you're just doing what Christians really love to do here, prosthelytize, so I'll continue jumping around.
this guy was a good man though and he taught us many valuable lessons, and the crazy part is that he never wrote it himself. this is just other people telling you what they either saw or heard from others. these accounts were made at 4 separate times and by 4 different people and pretty much the same story. just different writing styles thus different emphasis on different subjects or priorities.
And all of these accounts were made several decades after he supposedly existed. And they tell far from the same story, as the characters portrayed within the Gospels are portrayed differently in each one.
In fact, I won't take the account you're giving as factual unless you can support the existence of it with something outside of the text and contemporaneous with the events.
he taught us to love unto death. it was the only real message he had. his many stern warnings, and his ultimate fate. all point to the fact that the only reward the world offers truth is pain suffering and death, and with that be said, always stand for truth.
Except that the world doesn't reward truth with suffering and death unless there's a totalitarian dictatorship at hand. Right now the world rewards truth with change. That change can be in the form of positive accolades or it can be in the
the world thinks it knows better. the world likes to complicate things and make things more difficult. life is simple. live and laugh and love. that's all he did. he preached a way of life, a good way of life. to have faith in the impossible. follow love and you can never go wrong. work where you love. do what you love.
And with how "the world likes to complicate things" we've extended the average life span by 20 years since the 1930s.
and the rest of the new testament is basically a broader description of what he taught.
Subdue women, don't allow them to teach. Great message there.
to understand the bible you must first understand the character of christ, because that is what it's all about. that's the point of the book
No, that's the point of the second half of the book..
if you can find morale flaw in christ by all means.
Eternal punishment for finite crime
Punishment of thought crime
There, two flaws.
i can't.
I did.
Of course, even if all of the moral lessons of the Bible were true, it wouldn't speak to the validity of the claim of whether or not a deity exists.
The claim wasn't that atheism was obvious but that there are obvious faults with religions (which are separate from the concept of theism)
The validity of a claim rests not upon its acceptance by a majority... etc.
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by Golden Boy
adjensen's challenge was not that I disprove every possible version of some god. It was that I couldn't disprove any god at all.
A challenge which you have still failed to meet.
You haven't proven that "Bob" is non-existent to yourself, because there are too many reasons that your proof of "he didn't show up" can be refuted, never mind the heavy lifting of proving his non-existence to me, which you haven't even started to do.
If your belief is that you can disprove the existence of something simply by finding a descriptive inconsistency, this is a fallacious belief, because description is a result of existence, not a cause of it. If God is not as he is described, that's our fault, not his, because we're the ones making the observations.
In other words, by showing that the parting of the Red Sea didn't happen (which you have not done, of course,) you don't demonstrate that God doesn't exist, you simply show that whoever wrote that was mistaken.