Do Chinese moms raise the best kids?

reply to post by searching4truth


This woman was interviewed extensively the other night on TV. She is a total tool and I believe a completely ineffective parent, if you consider being a parent raising well rounded, socially aware children, which I do.

I've got 4 kids and all of them play youth sports. In the 8 years, which is pretty much 50 different seasons of a variety of sports, there has never been a Chinese kid on any of the teams, with the notable exception of my daughter who is adopted. At the time I lived in WA state, which has a sizable Asian population. In fact there are more adopted Chinese kids in WA than any other state.

Now you can push your kids to get straight As in school, do the ballet and hit them with sticks to practice the oboe 2 hours a day and perhaps they will be accomplished. They will never be successful however, if success is being self aware, having a wide array of experiences and making decisions based on your desires and wants.

This woman teaches at Yale. Of course she does. She would never survive in an environment where you actually need interpersonal skills to be successful.

I saw her interview on the Cobert Report. Very interesting. I also saw another interview with a Chinese psychologist (didn't get her name) about the subject and her take was something like this:

Eastern culture has always promoted perfection, something the west admonish. Western Christians, historically,believe we can only obtain perfection through Christ. It is a sacrilege to boast one perfection. This comes from the philosophy that you and your children are wretched beings that need to be saved, you have a shame based ideology. If you teach that perfection is impossible, only Jesus was perfect, then you have a problem demanding excellence.

So, in response to poor self esteem, we reward poor performance with lies of encouragement, so as not to hurt the childs feeling. Rewarding failure, in any way, 6th place ribbons, or just curving the grade, gives a false sense of success which leads to lower self esteem and an inability to recognize ones shortcomings, and work toward perfection in the long run.

In the east, historically, monks will leave a empty spot or something amiss in their sand art and mandalas, their weaving, ect. to show humility, but they demand to capable of perection. Budha reached perfection, and taught that others could to. As a result you have a people who believe they can excell and are not hindered by a shamed based philosophy. Parents then expect excellence, and give their children the desire for it and the tools and training to achieve it.

I believe we have changed in current times and Amy Chua's parenting skills (which I find to be OCD) represent a lingering of an oppressive communistic regiem overtone, that is being currently diluted in western philosphy. On the otherhand, westerners are changing their fatalistic, shame based religious history, into a more progressive sense of salvation.

Jesus said: Mathew 5:48 "Be ye, therefore, perfect as your father in heaven is perfect."

reply to post by guohua


While reading through the posts, I thought of the high suicide rate. It would be wonderful for my 14 yr old to play at Carnegie Hall, it would kill me if she committed suicide at 19 because she didn't make the symphony.

What the Chinese cultural stand on suicide? Is that not the ultimate failure, or do they see it differently.

I know where I come it is the most shameful thing, and many families lie when someone does.

Also, while I have your eye, I've always wondered something. I recall hearing that, oh about 20 years ago, that there was a huge problem with suicide and there were shoes lined up at train stations from the people that jumped. I was just curious if it was true.

Originally posted by searching4truth
reply to post by guohua

 

While reading through the posts, I thought of the high suicide rate. It would be wonderful for my 14 yr old to play at Carnegie Hall, it would kill me if she committed suicide at 19 because she didn't make the symphony.

What the Chinese cultural stand on suicide? Is that not the ultimate failure, or do they see it differently.

I know where I come it is the most shameful thing, and many families lie when someone does.

Also, while I have your eye, I've always wondered something. I recall hearing that, oh about 20 years ago, that there was a huge problem with suicide and there were shoes lined up at train stations from the people that jumped. I was just curious if it was true.

I have to ask, Why would she commit suicide? If she is not proficient in that field of expertise, then I would have to think you know of her inability to play at Carnegie Hall and she has moved on to study in a field she is more adapt too. That she has a feel for and comes more natural.
I can't speak for other chinese people/ descendant, but to me as a budhist, I used to think that if I commit suicide for sure I will be re-born into something different than I am now ( a human), maybe in a form of an animal,plant or stone.
I have to ask you,,, Do you believe any of these Chinese Women were Beat into Submission to play these interments like they do?



Suicide is really a relief for people hopeless, though savers try to persuade them give up by recalling their past happiness or selfishness onto family or friends or responsibilities. You have to remember, China's Suicide rate is not that bad, China's Population is HUGE!
The suicide rate in China is relatively low in comparison to its neighbors in the north like, Russia, S. Korea, and Japan. In Korea, strict social, familial, and academic pressures contribute to the developed world's highest suicide rate. Traditionally in Japan the concept of suicide is considered honorable in many situations in an effort to save face and self-dignity. Even today it is not unusual for failed businessmen and CEOs to commit suicide.

The Chinese see Suicide as Very Different, when you're far from family and friends and we're all along and you're failing, Suicide as been the way out, it ends all your problems.

reply to post by guohua

Academic success is one thing, obsession within a relatively narrow scope is something quite different. You use the word "proficient", but your "standard" is absolute excellence...within a narrow scope. For example, only piano and violin, and absolutely NO room for possibly creating a NEW instrument.
That is not proficiency, that is dominance within a narrow minded framework.

Comparing "western" educational and parenting practices with the Chinese practices is quite ludicrous because for the sake of the argument, the argument itself is invalid. In other words, there are NO homogeneous western practices, and there are none Chinese either. Our perceptions of the west and the east are fabricated and largely based upon myth and propaganda. Is universal education a reality in China?

Driving a child to "out"perform with psychological browbeating can obviously yield results, mostly predictable but sometimes with stunning results I admit. But ingenuity and creativity? Sacrificed at the altar
of conformance, much like those "saved" by a dogmatic religion.
At least, that is my view.

Japanese and Korean kids>>>Chinese kids.

But wth, most people probably can't tell the difference

reply to post by guohua


I hope you didn't think I judging the method, I'm a bit ocd myself and probably tend to be more Chinese than Western in my child rearing. I was curious about the perception of suicide.

No, I don't think any of those girls were beat into submission. Honestly, I don't know too much about the Chinese and domestic violence (and no I don't consider a swat on the butt domestic violence).

Overall, I think that method is more beneficial than the western approach. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard someone's child is going through a phase, when really the parent needed to correct the behavior and was making a choice not to.

reply to post by Stewie


Stewie, to begin with I am only trying to contribute to this thread as asked by the O P to give a Traditional Chinese Parents view.
Now, I never and I was never Brow Beat as a Child to be something I was not comfortable with. I think you need to also be-aware that many of the musical instruments used today was invented in China. I don't know if you even bothered to listen to those wonderful Ladies and their music, but they were not Brow Beat to learn those instruments!
It would appear most of the Western People here believe we Beat or disown our Children if They Fail Us!

Stewie you said and I Quote you [" Comparing "western" educational and parenting practices with the Chinese practices is quite ludicrous because for the sake of the argument, the argument itself is invalid. In other words, there are NO homogeneous western practices, and there are none Chinese either. Our perceptions of the west and the east are fabricated and largely based upon myth and propaganda. Is universal education a reality in China?"]
You are very wrong and here is a little history for you.: China has a long history of standardized tests, beginning with the ancient imperial exams initiated during the Sui Dynasty (581-618). Used for over 1,300 years as a method of selecting government officials, some suggest that official exams should be counted as one of China’s major ancient inventions alongside gunpowder, paper money, printing and the compass.

Today, national tests determine which elementary, high school and university a student will attend. They are still the single most important factor in deciding one’s general career path.

Our children start early learning that school is not a play ground and teachers are to respected! In comparison to their counterparts in Asia, Western students enjoy a seemingly relaxed educational experience. Indeed, in the East, students often face crushing workloads and adhere to strict codes of discipline.

If you or anyone else would like to learn more about the education system and a Westerns view point try this link.
www.theglobalist.com...


Our children are taught, School is for Education, it's Not Play Time Recess is for Play Time. Our children expect 4 hours of home work a night with at least 8 hours of home work over the weekend.
Chinese students are taught that all questions have but one right answer and there is little room for debate.
Chinese students develop what appears to many Westerners to be a shocking capacity for memorization.

]reply to post by searching4truth


searching4truth, No I didn't think any of those things, I know you where just asking what I thought.
I'll tell you want I think about Western Education, It Lacks Discipline and teachers are not respected and to much time is spent on Hugghie, Feelie Crap, You're afraid of pissing your own kid off, why do you think they can throw that fit in the store and get away with it, Your Threats Have No Backing!

My husband can remember the day, when you still had ash trays in the store isle's and it meant nothing to get your face slapped for having a fit or yelling like a brat!

Now you have the Huggie, Kissie, No kid can do anything wrong people out there and you've allowed them to corrupt your way of raising your on child.

The Western Education System is Ruined and Lost and a Total Waste. The American Child Is Behind Even the Children of India, You've Spoiled them. You're afraid your child will hate you.They won't..
Try this Video.

One of my three children has a Chinese mother. She's a good child, and I think her mother is an above average parent, but I really don't see any major differences between my children. The list of what a "Chinese mother" does sounds a little similar to what my whiter than white mother was all about.

You want success? Kick out the board of education who allow such travesties like "everyday math" or allow a voucher system so the money goes to students instead of schools.

But not allowing play dates, sleepovers, or videogames? That will just create a population of borgs.

reply to post by guohua


I did not think this thread could get more racist or condescending but I am wrong. I have pity in my heart for the spawn of the helicopter parent OP.

But reading what you do to children you supposedly love puts a pit in my stomach. Hopefully they will be wise enough to break the heavy chain that bound you when the time comes for them to raise children.

Because you have done something a certain way for a long time does not make it the best way or even the right way. It just shows lack of thought, originality and creativity. No growth. May as well be a mushroom.

Originally posted by LargeFries
reply to post by guohua

 

I did not think this thread could get more racist or condescending but I am wrong. I have pity in my heart for the spawn of the helicopter parent OP.

But reading what you do to children you supposedly love puts a pit in my stomach. Hopefully they will be wise enough to break the heavy chain that bound you when the time comes for them to raise children.

Because you have done something a certain way for a long time does not make it the best way or even the right way. It just shows lack of thought, originality and creativity. No growth. May as well be a mushroom.

It is more than likely you have no idea what this thread is about, The Chinese system of educating their children is working, who owns who today?
Your system is broke, why don't you try and fix it, because that would require you to change and to think.
It's easier for people like you to just complain and loss every thing you own to much smarter people.
No chains required, no chains to break. If you'd read that link provided , you see our children like to learn and advance. But that might require you to actually do some thing like read and think and comprehend something.

You have to bring in the race card because you have nothing to fight success with except to say Chinese are racist because we have the desire to see our children succeed in life.

I'm thinking you're a TROLL and you know nothing of success and you know nothing of the Chinese People as a Race.
But YEA!!! You are the one that called me a Racist and an Abuser of Children,,, Hmmmm

reply to post by guohua

Please spare me. I DO know a bit about China, and I am not trying to disparage the Chinese. I am quite aware of their long recorded history. The topic, however, is "Do Chinese moms...."
The question I suppose is, what is the meaning of "best"? Whom are the "better" children? You define them one way, I suppose I define them another.
An independent thinker is a threat to "acceptable" thought and those that would prescribe it. In China of course, independent thinkers are not exactly...esteemed. There is a trade off when you dictate and define the parameters of your child's human experience.
Creativity can only truly flourish if the soul is unleashed and out of human control, and creativity cannot be taught or "trained" I'm afraid. For an example in music, look at black culture. How much inspirational and influential music was invented by poor blacks with home made instruments? Only the invention of rock and roll, that is all.
I am quite content to leave it at that.

reply to post by Stewie


You're quite right as to Rock and Roll and Jazz,,,, but, you need to read the link I provided about the test and the education system and the advancements,,, free thinkers,,,,, YES,,, I can say for a fact, after 1979 after Mao's death things changed as far as free thinking and forward looking students in China, that is very much encouraged.

In 1986, China set the long-term goal of providing compulsory nine-year basic education to every child. As of 2007, there were 396,567 primary schools, 94,116 secondary schools, and 2,236 higher education institutions in the PRC.[194] In February 2006, the government advanced its basic education goal by pledging to provide completely free nine-year education, including textbooks and fees.[195] Free compulsory education in China consists of elementary school and middle school, which lasts for 9 years (age 6-15); almost all children in urban areas continue with 3 years of high school.

As of 2007, 93.3% of the population over age 15 are literate. China's youth (age 15 to 24) literacy rate was 98.9% in 2000. In March 2007, China announced the decision of making education a national "strategic priority", the central budget of the national scholarships will be tripled in two years and 223.5 billion Yuan (28.65 billion US dollars) of extra funding will be allocated from the central government in the next 5 years to improve the compulsory education in rural areas.

In 2009, Chinese students from Shanghai achieved the best results in mathematics, science and reading in the test of the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a worldwide evaluation of 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance
Many parents are highly committed to their children's education, often investing large portions of the family's income on education. Private lessons and recreational activities, such as in foreign languages or music, are popular among the middle-class families who can afford them.

Source is en.wikipedia.org...'s_Republic_of_China#Education

A disturbing conclusion emerged from my travels – that Global Education Standards have passed the United States by, and Americans have no idea that it has happened. Particularly in India and China, K-12 education produces students clearly more advanced in math and science but also better-rounded in literature, history, language, economics, art and music.

These students spend less time on sports and more time in school – as much as 100% more in the case of China. They spend less time socializing and more time in tutoring. They don’t hold part time jobs, because they see intellectual pursuits as a full-time requirement.

Most troubling of all, this educational superiority is occurring in countries where the K-12 student population dwarfs our own: India has 211 million K-12 students; China has 200 million as compared to America’s 53 million.
Source :
www.thevoicemagazine.com...
Above are more links for you.

I don't know about Chinese kids but I did a tour in S. Korea and in talking with the younger adults there over a few bottles of Soju they explained some parental practices that might seem extreme to us here in the states.

Poor academic reports were rewarded with going to bed hungry -

Shaming the family resulted in severe and embarrassing punishments -

One kid said he had to hold buckets of water at arms length after falling asleep in school -

School was a competition rather than the indulgent experiment in everyone is a winner like we have here.

After watching Korean society in action I have to say they are very active and competitive people who strive for the best in everything. Most people have a regular job (10-12 hours) and then most families have some kind of personal business on the side at which they work another 5-6 hours a day.

Thier work ethic whether it be on an intramural sports team (I played in a rugby league and they don't play to relax I'll tell you that) to accademics (I taught English classes at night) to business (excellent service wherever you go) was amazing compared to that I witnessed in the states.

I think we can all agree (well most of us, anyway) that the extreme 'Chinese method' of raising kids produces wonderfully bright and dedicated children and young people, who many times suffer self-esteem issues and struggle with social skills. They may be stifled and shy, and even somewhat psychologically damaged from years of such strict structure. And the extreme 'western way' of raising kids produces self-indulgent, spoiled and selfish kids and people, who don't show or deserve respect. But they are creative, expressive and socially secure.

But I think a balance can and should be found. It's how I raise my dogs anyway. I know people get weirded out when I start talking about dogs as kids, but in the bigger picture, raising kids isn't ALL that different from raising dogs. If you screw up, because you went to one extreme or the other, you're going to have a problem dog. And if you apply exercise, discipline, and affection and meet the dogs' needs, without spoiling them, you're going to have a great dog. It's a fine line to walk,

A balance between the two methods is clearly superior to either method, IMO.

My husband and I love watching the Biggest Loser. There was a contestant on there who was a child of Chinese immigrants and she was raised in the strict, 'Chinese method'. She was insecure, lacked self-confidence and was crushed by her parents' blaming her for being fat AND for her younger brother's death. (When she was 3, she was with him in a kiddie pool when he drowned and her father told her, "It should have been you".)

Jesus Christ! I hated that man for that!

At the age of three, her younger brother drowned while playing together in a kiddie pool, a fact that her parents have held over her for years. In this week's episode, it was revealed that her father used to tell her "It should have been you" during arguments.

This tension was augmented later in the season when every contestant's family sent in a home video greeting... except Ada's, leaving her in tears after a trainer pulled her aside to say there was no video waiting for her. During a make-over fashion show, she's relieved that the "loved one" waiting for her backstage is a female friend as she admits she was unsure how she'd react to her family being present after the home video diss.
...
Her struggle with a crippling lack of self-confidence and yearning for acceptance from her parents is a running theme... But in recent episodes, she's been given ample camera time in which she discusses, though vaguely, the cultural limitations placed on Asian American children. She expresses a desire to start a youth program for young folks to learn social skills and develop self-esteem.

Source

Well... I dont know if they raise the best kids, but they sure raise women to be the best wives! Along with japanese and thai. Gotta love those cultures...

My answer is a big NO.

Frankly, I think that she's taking it to such an extreme as could constitute child abuse. The things she's doing are probably going to be severely deleterious to their emotional and social development.

And let's look at the fruits of such an upbringing and social ideals: you have China where it's not nearly as bad as NK, but the government still has an iron-clad grip on many areas of people's lives and freedom of choice is very limited when compared to Western countries. Or you have Japan where the suicide rates are astronomical.

Traditional Asian parenting is going to produce highly productive, highly obedient children many times, yes. But the thing of it is that without being properly immersed in the culture and having that upbringing, she doesn't really know how to do it right and is only implementing an extreme version that is probably a misrepresentation of the whole.