Hawaii official now swears: No Obama birth certificate

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
That sounds like a birther question, "where's the documentation on this guy?" The birthers would also like to know.

The problem is that I have actually seen all the relevant documentation needed to prove the case that Obama is natural born. That does not mean I should then just take unfounded claims from birthers at their word, does it?

Much documentation is not available, though we have a school registration form available. The passport documentation for Obama's mother should be available, but an application for a known passport in 1965 for her is not available (Officials claim the 1965 records were destroyed, how convenient). The 1968 passport amendment is available, and lists her son with an Indonesian name: Barack Hussein Obama (Soebarkah). This is an official document:

www.scribd.com...

This is the only explanation I could find for the name Soebarkah:

Native Indonesian: “Soebarkah” most likely name given to Obama upon adoption by Indonesian Stepfather

SHARON: So on that form that we’ve all seen where it says “Barack Hussein Obama” then “(Soebarkah),” you believe Soebarkah is a given name.

SAM: The only reason he would be given a name which would go on an official form is if the name was given to him officially.

If you've got a better explanation, I'm all ears, but according to that explanation the name Soebarkah is probably an official name on what is definitely an official form.

I am really not even sure how to address this. Someone, NOT OBAMA, wrote down something on a form for themself, NOT OBAMA. OK. Well I cannot ask his mom why she wrote what she wrote. What do you think it means? He was adopted and made Indonesian because of this other name that is neither his stepfather's nor his mother's?

Please tell me exactly what conclusion about Obama's citizenship status this leads you to. All I get from it is that his mom wrote something down when he was a kid that does nothing to nullify his status as natural born.

It is entirely possible he has a 5th or 6th name that embarasses him and he has been trying to hide that too. None of that makes him no longer a natural born citizen so please help me see what you are looking at here.

We know he went by the name Barry Soetoro from the school registration form on this snopes site:
www.snopes.com...
Scroll a little more than halfway down to "variations".

How do you come to the conclusion he went by this name? My stepfather used to put my name down in all manner of variations because one, he thought it was funny and two, he was an idiot. I never actually WENT BY any of the last names he thought so funny to assign me. Imagine if I were to run for president. You would all ride me out of town and the hospital that will confirm I was born in it over such a thing?

What you "know" is what his stepdad wrote down for him. Why he did that, you do not know. Whether Barry ever "went by" Sotero, I did not see any evidence of.

But the legality of using that name or whether it was an "official" change is anybody's guess.

The Snopes site makes the same point I was trying to make in my previous post:

Lolo Soetoro's putatively listing his stepson's nationality as Indonesian on a school registration form does not in itself demonstrate that Barack Obama was officially regarded as an Indonesian citizen by the government of that country.

In other words, even though they listed him as an Indonesian citizen on that form, it doesn't mean it's "official" and just because they list his name as Barry Soetoro doesn't mean it's "official" since I would argue a school registration form isn't an "official" document from a legal perspective, though the school may feel it's an official form for the school and some have claimed it's official.

But the passport amendment is definitely an official document.

Even you know it doesn't matter yet you still whip it out.






If there is a birther on ATS that is actually interested in the truth and not just stirring the pot, please U2U me. Playing with monkeys is fun and very entertaining but it would at least be nice to have a conversation here where the poster does not debunk their own rumors for me. Leave me something before you undo your own premise.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Please tell me exactly what conclusion about Obama's citizenship status this leads you to.

You asked a question about documentation for his name change, I answered it. I already said I think he was probably born in Hawaii but I'm not completely sure because I don't completely trust Fukino as much as some people do.I don't even need to see the source documents Fukino referred to myself, but I think election officials need to, for future elections. Maybe they will. We'll see.

Regarding what name he actually went by, you obviously didn't read the link I posted, if you had you wouldn't have written the response you did. It explains the way names are used in Indonesia. It's quite interesting actually, I didn't know some of that.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I already said I think he was probably born in Hawaii but I'm not completely sure

And a point has been made here, you will never know for sure whether Obama or any other president was born here on US soil, all you will ever rely on are images and statements and that's it. I've seen Reagans birth certificate, registered over 30 years following his birth, it's the short form birth certificate of his time and an enlarged version, not even the original short form birth certificate. Many folks including myself have taken this as evidence enough of his birth (despite the fact he released it 2 years after the end of his administration) and this is how it's been for many presidents.

You continiously go on about being "sure" or "not fully" buying the evidence. The question should be to what point will evidence be believable for you? Unless you witnessed Obama's birth yourself, you will never know for sure, you will always rely on secondary surces and images. That is the way it has been, that is the way it will always be. This is something birthers cannot seem to understand, or want to understand.

because I don't completely trust Fukino as much as some people do.

Well this furthers the dilemma for people like you does it not? You do not trust Hawaiian authorities like Fukino, you want more documents and information released, so how exactly will you assess the authenticity of those documents? Your gut feeling? Because there is no other way really. You are not of a backround that gives you authority over the authenticity of Obama's document and birth, Hawaiian health officials do. You will assume based on your own analysis that it's "probably" authentic or not, and we go right to the beginning of the fiasco you put yourself in.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
You asked a question about documentation for his name change, I answered it.

You responded without answering.

I already said I think he was probably born in Hawaii but I'm not completely sure because I don't completely trust Fukino as much as some people do.

But you trust blog articles you found online?

I don't even need to see the source documents Fukino referred to myself, but I think election officials need to, for future elections. Maybe they will. We'll see.

You can think all kinds of stuff. No one is stopping you from thinking whatever you want. Whether or not the entire world will bend to your whims is probably a different story though.

[Regarding what name he actually went by, you obviously didn't read the link I posted, if you had you wouldn't have written the response you did. It explains the way names are used in Indonesia. It's quite interesting actually, I didn't know some of that.

I did. Read your BLOG. It changes nothing. I still want to see documentation to back up YOUR CLAIM that he legall changed his name ever.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I still want to see documentation to back up YOUR CLAIM that he legall changed his name ever.

Join the club, a lot of people want to see documentation regarding Obama.

But what claim are you talking about? Where did I claim he legall [sic] changed his name?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I still want to see documentation to back up YOUR CLAIM that he legall changed his name ever.

Join the club, a lot of people want to see documentation regarding Obama.

But what claim are you talking about? Where did I claim he legall [sic] changed his name?

I make lots of typos and rarely feel the need to go back and edit them when I feel the point is pretty obvious. You claimed that he "oficially" changed his name. If that is nothing legal, then who cares? What do you mean by "oficially?"

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I make lots of typos and rarely feel the need to go back and edit them when I feel the point is pretty obvious. You claimed that he "oficially" changed his name. If that is nothing legal, then who cares? What do you mean by "oficially?"

Your typos don't concern me, I make them too.

But your lack of ability to comprehend what you read does concern me. Are you saying I claimed he "oficially"[sic] changed his name in this post?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The Snopes site makes the same point I was trying to make in my previous post:

Lolo Soetoro's putatively listing his stepson's nationality as Indonesian on a school registration form does not in itself demonstrate that Barack Obama was officially regarded as an Indonesian citizen by the government of that country.

In other words, even though they listed him as an Indonesian citizen on that form, it doesn't mean it's "official" and just because they list his name as Barry Soetoro doesn't mean it's "official" since I would argue a school registration form isn't an "official" document from a legal perspective, though the school may feel it's an official form for the school and some have claimed it's official.

What part of that post, or any post I made, caused you to say "You claimed that he "oficially" changed his name."?

Because it looks to me like I said the evidence "isn't an "official" document from a legal perspective", though I pointed out others have claimed it.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Your typos don't concern me, I make them too.

That would seem less that true since you just went a long way to highlight one instead of just answering the question. You made a big deal out of a missing "y" and then claim it doesn't matter?

But your lack of ability to comprehend what you read does concern me. Are you saying I claimed he "oficially"[sic] changed his name in this post?

OK. So you never said "legally" or "oficially." So...then what the hell are you even arguing about?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The Snopes site makes the same point I was trying to make in my previous post:

Lolo Soetoro's putatively listing his stepson's nationality as Indonesian on a school registration form does not in itself demonstrate that Barack Obama was officially regarded as an Indonesian citizen by the government of that country.

In other words, even though they listed him as an Indonesian citizen on that form, it doesn't mean it's "official" and just because they list his name as Barry Soetoro doesn't mean it's "official" since I would argue a school registration form isn't an "official" document from a legal perspective, though the school may feel it's an official form for the school and some have claimed it's official.

What part of that post, or any post I made, caused you to say "You claimed that he "oficially" changed his name."?

Because it looks to me like I said the evidence "isn't an "official" document from a legal perspective", though I pointed out others have claimed it.

But you have been going on for pages about this

After all the guy who was born in the US was Barack Obama, but the kid in Indonesia was named Barry Soetoro.

You are arguing about him changing his name. If it never happened "oficially" or "legally" then I guess I do not understand what point you were trying to make then.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
You are arguing about him changing his name. If it never happened "oficially" or "legally" then I guess I do not understand what point you were trying to make then.

Again your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

micpsi claimed Obama must have given up his American citizenship, and I was arguing against that saying there are other possible explanations here:

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by micpsi
it is clear to all but the must stubborn Obama supporters that Obama must have given up his American citizenship in order:
1. to register as an Indonesian in an Indonesian school;
2. to travel on an Indonesian passport to Pakistan.

In the USA, you can get a halfway decent identity with a new name for $1000.

There are some alternatives to renouncing US citizenship, such as making false claims to Indonesian officials, bribing Indonesian officials, creating false documentation in Indonesia, none of which would have required renouncing US citizenship.

Then you asked some questions and I answered them.

So I'm arguing there's no proof there was a legal name change, but there's also no proof there wasn't. There is evidence of other names (Barry Soetoro and "Soebarkah") which might cause one to question the nature of these alternate names, were they or were they not legal name changes? I disagreed with the people who claimed there was proof they are legal, then you felt like you wanted to argue with me I guess but you'll have to ask yourself why, since you're apparently saying the same thing I am that there's no proof.

The only thing I'm not sure about with your position is, do you presume the lack of evidence that the name changes were legal means they weren't legal?

Because I don't presume that, all I can say is I don't know. I have no proof either way, that the other names he used were either legal or not legal name changes. So among the other points I was trying to make, that is a key point.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Again your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

That is just as witty, clever, and original the second time. So a birther has something to say about reading comprehension and I should feel insulted by that? OK.

micpsi claimed Obama must have given up his American citizenship, and I was arguing against that saying there are other possible explanations here:

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by micpsi
it is clear to all but the must stubborn Obama supporters that Obama must have given up his American citizenship in order:
1. to register as an Indonesian in an Indonesian school;
2. to travel on an Indonesian passport to Pakistan.

In the USA, you can get a halfway decent identity with a new name for $1000.

There are some alternatives to renouncing US citizenship, such as making false claims to Indonesian officials, bribing Indonesian officials, creating false documentation in Indonesia, none of which would have required renouncing US citizenship.

Then you asked some questions and I answered them.

No. You did not really answer. What you have done is argue for two pages just to tell me that if I could read I would realize that you agree that there is no reason to believe he ever changed his name at any time. I am not sure what answers you feel you gave but my original question was for proof of a name change. You seem to be either backtracking or purposely trying to be obtuse. You did say he had two different names, did you not?

So I'm arguing there's no proof there was a legal name change, but there's also no proof there wasn't.

Seriously? There is no proof Obama is an alien or the antichrist but there is no proof he is not either. What a super valid argument that is. And um...so what is the point of it? Saying he did change his name or not? You seem unsure where you stand, hence my confusion as to what you are actually arguing.

There is evidence of other names (Barry Soetoro and "Soebarkah") which might cause one to question the nature of these alternate names, were they or were they not legal name changes? I disagreed with the people who claimed there was proof they are legal, then you felt like you wanted to argue with me I guess but you'll have to ask yourself why, since you're apparently saying the same thing I am that there's no proof.

I asked if you had any proof and you have been arguing with me since. Please go back and check.

The only thing I'm not sure about with your position is, do you presume the lack of evidence that the name changes were legal means they weren't legal?

My position is that a lack of evidence for ANYTHING YOU WANT TO CLAIM is nothing more than lack of evidence for that claim. Are you asserting that a negative must be proven for any given claim?

Because I don't presume that, all I can say is I don't know. I have no proof either way, that the other names he used were either legal or not legal name changes. So among the other points I was trying to make, that is a key point.

Um....ok.

So your position is that while there is no proof that he never actually changed his name, you believe it is possible because you have yet to see proof that he has not.

Riiiiiiiight.

Insult me again. Use the same one and go for a turkey!

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Seriously? There is no proof Obama is an alien or the antichrist but there is no proof he is not either. What a super valid argument that is.

The difference between those examples and the question about his name is, we have a school form showing the name Barry Soetoro, a different name for him.

We don't have anything like that about an alien or antichrist so I don't think those are comparable examples.

You don't see the difference?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The difference between those examples and the question about his name is, we have a school form showing the name Barry Soetoro, a different name for him.

So are you trying to say that a "school form" makes it official or legal?

I have a form here stating that Obama is indeed an alien. I also have one saying that my name is now Aponymous Muttonbocker IV. Hang on a second...

...

...

Now I have a form stating that I am an actual deity. Forms with stuff written on them are neat. I even embossed them.

So is this stuff "official" "legal" or just examples of forms with stuff written on them?

We don't have anything like that about an alien or antichrist so I don't think those are comparable examples.

I do. It is right next to the one saying he is an alien.

You don't see the difference?

Between an unofficial and nonlegal form and an unofficial and nonlegal form?

Noooooot really.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I have a form here stating that Obama is indeed an alien.

It's not just the form.

We know his mother married a man named Lolo Soetoro.
We know that Obama's mother changed her name to Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro.
We know that he had a half sister named Maya Soetoro.
We know that Barack went to Indonesia live with Mr Soetoro, his mother Mrs. Soetoro where he appears in this Soetoro family photo published at nytimes.com, with them and his half-sister Maya Soetoro:

www.nytimes.com...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5971f0841fba.jpg[/atsimg]

These facts not only can be proven but they are admitted and not disputed.
Another fact is that a significant number of parents do adopt and legally change the names of their adopted children. I, like Barack Obama, have a half sister. My sister was legally adopted by my father (her stepfather) and her name was changed to my father's name. And while we don't know whether Barack Obama is included in that significant number of children like my sister who are legally adopted and have their names legally changed, it does seem a plausible (even if unproven) possibility, which cannot be said of your alien example.

For example, I can prove his half-sister is a Soetoro. You can't prove his half sister is an alien.

And I don't believe you "have a form" there "stating that Obama is indeed an alien".

Because you apparently don't have the capability to understand why your suggestion that Obama may be an alien isn't as credible as a possibility that he may have had the last name Soetoro, I see no point in responding to you further, so this is my last reply to you.

i knew it

Each time when Obama's birth certificate comes up I assossiate with of the movie The Omen. There it says that the AC is born from a Jackhal bitch.....Don't they have Jackhals in Africa?

Anyways,....that movie made an impression on me.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
It's not just the form.

Of course not. I am sure you have misconceptions and what you think is information as well. Let's look at some, shant we?

We know his mother married a man named Lolo Soetoro.
We know that Obama's mother changed her name to Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro.
We know that he had a half sister named Maya Soetoro.
We know that Barack went to Indonesia live with Mr Soetoro, his mother Mrs. Soetoro where he appears in this Soetoro family photo published at nytimes.com, with them and his half-sister Maya Soetoro:
www.nytimes.com...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5971f0841fba.jpg[/atsimg]

Uh huh and...?
None of that has anything to do with Obama changing HIS name now does it? NOTHING. ZERO. ZILTCH!

These facts not only can be proven but they are admitted and not disputed.

Do not let the fact that they do nothing to indicate what you are claiming get in the way though.

Another fact is that a significant number of parents do adopt and legally change the names of their adopted children. I, like Barack Obama, have a half sister. My sister was legally adopted by my father (her stepfather) and her name was changed to my father's name.

A real fact is that is far less common than the norm. Rare things do happen. It does not mean they happened here. The fact that you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that it did is kind of telling.

And while we don't know whether Barack Obama is included in that significant number of children like my sister who are legally adopted and have their names legally changed, it does seem a plausible (even if unproven) possibility, which cannot be said of your alien example.

Why is it any less plausible than him being an alien? Have you proven their are no aliens and I missed that?
You say he COULD have changed his name but cannot prove it. That is more solid than him being an alien how? Because of unrelated annecdotal evidence that OTHER people changed their names? Really?

For example, I can prove his half-sister is a Soetoro. You can't prove his half sister is an alien.

I never said his sister is half alien. Can you prove he ever changed his name?

And I don't believe you "have a form" there "stating that Obama is indeed an alien".

Then I do not believe you have a sister. Making a form is pretty easy with this amazing technology I have. It consists of an art program, word processor, and printer. Google that stuff. I can make all kinds of forms stating all kinds of things. It is actually easier for me to just make a form then it is for you to just have a sister.

Because you apparently don't have the capability to understand why your suggestion that Obama may be an alien isn't as credible as a possibility that he may have had the last name Soetoro, I see no point in responding to you further, so this is my last reply to you.

I think you are bowing out because you realize how stupid it sounds to keep claiming that something is probably true when you have ZERO evidence for it.