Humans are naturally plant-eaters

Instead of arguing about the same stuff, why dont we try to come to a middle ground?

Is it possible to agree on things and then try to exact solutions? What does this inane babbling acheive? It will go on for 100 pages until the people involved get tired of this discussion, and move on to do the same with another.

I think vegetarians have a point in that the meat industry is a vile monstrosity of a business. Not by nature, but definitely in practice. There can definitely be improvements to the respect for the animals involved. If for nothing else than the fact that by their death, they give us life.

I also think vegetarians would have more success if they simply labelled their views as a life choice. Not some pseudo-religion, in which one must convert all "non-believers." I also see a distinct lack of respect for the plants that also need to die to give us life. It is a beautiful exchange, really. But of course, we know everything about everything, and we are the judge of what is or is not worthy of respect in death, right?

Things must die for us to live. That is reality. Whether it is plant or animals, this one gives unending respect. If one chooses to not eat animals, that is fine. However, when the same one loses all respect for the plants that also need to die, i think hypocrisy slowly seeps into the playing field. Perhaps it is only my own understanding, but if one feels they are in a position to judge what has consciousness or not (and what its ok to kill to eat, and what is not), perhaps they should contact their local science institutions as we have been trying to figure that out for a while now


There are however, things that can most certainly change in our system. At least in trying to make use of the vast amounts of waste generated by the typical western lifestyle, if nothing else (and now equaled by the chinese, if not surpassed). Using all these hormones, genetic modification, et al, can not be good for us either. When it comes down to it, this one doesnt see it as a choice between lifestyles (the omnivore, vegetarian) but as more of an indicator of the need to better integrate technology with healthy, more natural, lifestyles. I think bickering over who is "right" and who is "wrong" will lead to nothing. We should be working on solutions to the very real (and quite interesting) problems that are facing us as a society, even if only applied to this field of the food industry.

So, what are some solutions? People will never stop eating meat as a whole, because we are naturally omnivores. So, what can we do? It is said (by someone important, cant remember who ) that a society can be measured by how they treat their animals. That certainly has a ring of truth, and if one is to draw similes between how, say, cattle are treated in the industry to how humans are treated by marketing and big corporations.. it is frighteningly easy.

One solution that might be offered is to focus on more "organic" types of farming. I must admit, the word "organic" makes this one cringe, but the meaning behind it is what is being conveyed. Returning such industries to a more local level might just be a good thing as well. By spreading the herds, it would create healthier happier animals, fortify the local industries, and create jobs. It may not even involve eating less meat. While there may be less animals involved, dependent industries (such as fast food) should take the brunt of that loss (speaking ideally, obviously). Such a thing could easily be facilitated by people choosing not to eat at those places. At the very least, it could be done less. I know some that have breakfast, lunch, and dinner from these establishments and can do nothing but cringe.. However, all that would involve actually changing and doing something. A topic which i suppose the vegetarians/vegans know by nature. The typical person has zero interest in changing anything whatsoever, so that may prove to be a difficulty.

Oh well, just thought id throw my own thoughts into the mix. This one tends to be more interested in trying to enact solutions, whereas most are much more focused on simply complaining, or arguing semantics.

Does accuracy matter or no? Is there such a thing as taking a stand instead of beating about the bushes - with a feather duster so as not to hurt them! lol Is there a point where you go beyond sensibility? I know people who won't walk on grass. This is an interesting and probably treatable mental condition.

Originally posted by sinohptik
Instead of arguing about the same stuff, why dont we try to come to a middle ground?

I think vegetarians have a point in that the meat industry is a vile monstrosity of a business.

I also think vegetarians would have more success if they simply labelled their views as a life choice.
Not some pseudo-religion, in which one must convert all "non-believers."

I also see a distinct lack of respect for the plants that also need to die...
Things must die for us to live. ...

I think bickering over who is "right" and who is "wrong" will lead to nothing....

We should be working on solutions to the very real (and quite interesting) problems that are facing us...

People will never stop eating meat as a whole, because we are naturally omnivores. So, what can we do? ...

Such a thing could easily be facilitated....

However, all that would involve actually changing and doing something. ...

The typical person has zero interest in changing anything whatsoever...

Oh well, just thought id throw my own thoughts into the mix. This one tends to be more interested in trying to enact solutions, whereas most are much more focused on simply complaining, or arguing semantics.

"This one" is better (?) than many of the rest of us in this debate for injecting a bit of restraint and roaming the "middle ground." More reasonable shall we say?
Bravo. We all have our style.
I try to get people to think about what they are doing and quit lying to themselves. You find some practices repulsive and I agree they are more than repulsive - they are criminal in my mind.
You find that middle ground in spite of these atrocities and manage a way to live with it. I would rather not and in fact I cannot.. Debate and argument bring about change. All change is brought about by unreasonable men.
I care less if I am pc or appropriate.

For the most part you make excellent points and I know there are many who really don't want to dive into the middle of this argument -but for the animals ...I will. I always will. I think I am part animal.
So even though I AGREE with much of what you say I will debate further some points.

1. The first couple of quotes I already hit upon but the idea that vegetarians need to lable themselves as a marketing tool or to acheive "success" is ridiculous. As has been mentioned by almost 100% of them they are NOT TRYING to change anyone else. They are relating among themselves banter, experience or the SUCCESS they have already gained and the benefits of that success to others who are " veggie curious" or wish this enlightenment for themselves.
Those who will listen and learn may do so. Those who want to dispute that model of success and a vegan health choice... are also free to do so. I personally am in agreement with the initial premise and choose to defend it.

Then there are those who will enter the fray and attempt to display a "smarter than" approach which neither convinces vegans to go meaty or omnivoress to go vegan but does attempt to shine a light on the plight of animals (and plants?). I adore you for this even though you are a little overly impressed with your own personal style and approach to the debate.
If labling people decreases their own desire for meat or even causes them to think twice about who they are and what they want to consume, I don't care whether it is for health, ethical or ecological reasons, they are all good reasons to quit meat eating...I am not above it or using semantics. You are. We know that.

2. But then you are comparing plants to animals? No, they are not the same and yes, I will be the judge here. I am the human who is supposedly endowed with an above natural intelligence. Of course we should not detroy forests either. Do you know Sarah Palin considers the Great Alaskan Sequoias a renewable resource?. Cuts down 800 years old forests and replaces them with twigs? You must know, as we will all eventually learn, insensitivity IS a form of insanity. There I go name calling again. Actually it is more of a psychological assessment.

3. Things must die for us to live? Wrong.
Things must move over. We must exercise human population control in some species...firstly our own but for the most part we may all live together quite nicely without any animal death brought about by humans. You have no faith in this but I know one day we will live that way and look back on these as our final days of barbary.

4. Stop bickering....That's rich. I guess it depends on what you say whether it is "bickering" or constructive arguments and facts put forth. It may be left, right or middle ground and technically it is all bickering. Bickering about the bickering. It is how things get done in forms of democracy other than a dictatorship

5. "We should be working on solutions" you say and again I am applauding ...My position is that gentleness, consideration and a "not for profit" approach in almost all areas will cure the world and our society of almost all ills. Inhumanity is our biggest problem. Compassion is what we lack and if you can manage to solve that the rest will fall into place.
You cannot hold any middle ground here. You have to make a call and decide who you are and what you cherish and respect. What will you teach you children? Respect for the life you take? Will you say one thing and do another? Will you have a set of double standards? Read them "Thou shalt not kill" and then kill?

"People will never stop eating meat" You are right...at least not in yours or my lifetime...but I know that eventually on this planet...they will. I know it is, will be, a part of our evolution.
Some people are simply ahead of the curve. Don't take that away from them or discredit it as a "religion." It is a very wise, supremely humane, deliberate and conscious choice.
We are not naturally omnivores. We are opportunistic feeders and will eat anything. We are naturally frugivores if you are using the word natural to mean as intended or devised by nature.

You think something must be done to stem the unnecessary suffering of animals but then say people don't want to change and so you cancel out your own proposed solutions. People never want to change. You must change them. Help them see the need for change. Did you do that?

You have some great ideas, thoughts and feelings. I did not requote them because I agree with all of those and so the point would be moot. I just want you to know that as obnoxious as you might find me (and I know when I am being referred to) I find you unpredictable and wishy washy, because you have no clear convictions and seems you would not stick to them if you did.

Truly, I feel more comfort with the carnivores who at least know where they stand and are clear about it than with those who might go either way - whichever is the easiest path, right down the middle of right and wrong.

reply to post by rusethorcain


Missed the response for a few days there.

i am not here to debate. the whole right/wrong shenanigans has zero interest to me. i respect your viewpoint as it is valid as my own (and obviously dont expect it in return). I state my perspective as simply another drop in the bucket. I put forth some solutions and as a middle ground to get discussion going towards action. You are taking my perspective as though it were shining through your own eyes. It seems, the universe is far more complex than you make it out to be.

You can think whatever you want of me, that is your free will. It seems you think you are being productive, so carry on friend.. You obviously already know where this one is coming from anyway

You want to discuss actual solutions and not personal... whatever, let me know

Also note, discussions on message boards are not simply between their direct participants.

reply to post by sinohptik


You are alright. I like you. But I don't want to debate with you either. Preaching to the choir.
I am aware others read along. I know we make the world a whole lot more complicated than it has to be.

I am not good, bad, smart or dumb. I am like you...another nameless, faceless, voice in the crowd. Peace.

this thread is fail, we ate vegis because we had to and lived till we were 30 maybe.

A simple look at our neighbors here in the US the Indians will tell you that man has and will be an omnivore, carnivore or herbivore when necessary.

Especially in a survival forum no less, it's called rabbit starvation you simply cant survive without certain things that meat whether animals or some nuts can provide.

Ideally, we could all eat beans to our hearts content. The reason humans are so successful in their survival and evolution is their appetite for meat. Whereas if you took a semi aquatic herbivorous mammal as far north as you could and dropped them off, they'd last a few days. It's not necessarily that meat was the ultimate protein that caused our brains to grow and help us to evolve. It's the fact that when vegetation ceases to exist, we're willing, and more than able, to consume other organisms.

And often, the ones utilized are those that are exclusively herbivorous. Yeah, if people would own up to environmentalism and stop eating meat, we could have a better world. But the fact of the matter is that the taste is there because of the pre-historical variations that allowed a percentage of our population to survive, and thrive without vegetation.

Originally posted by circuitsports
this thread is fail, we ate vegis because we had to and lived till we were 30 maybe.

A simple look at our neighbors here in the US the Indians will tell you that man has and will be an omnivore, carnivore or herbivore when necessary.

Especially in a survival forum no less, it's called rabbit starvation you simply cant survive without certain things that meat whether animals or some nuts can provide.

Whatever...it is called opportunistic feeding not rabbit starvation.
Notice if WE don't eat the fruits, nuts and grains we have to eat the beasts that do eat them.
Not the most efficient way to get them - all predigested by the beasts - but one way or another you are right...we get the fruits, nuts and seed components into us by virtue of the animals flesh.

Oh so we get a lot of fat, hormones and antibiotics as well (depending on your meat source...farmed or wild) But who cares? It makes the slobber run down our lips and our stomach growl.
That is what matters.
Not that this thing slaughtered has a mate, youngsters and a family. Let the family watch him die. We will eat them next. We're hungry. This is REASON enough.

reply to post by Vandalour


True at one time we were mindless animals that lived mainly off of plants. It wasn't until we started eating meat, and gaining the proteins that we needed that we started expanding the size of our brains, and gaining more cognitive functions. Yes we can survive on plants only, but we also need at least plants that have very high proteins, such as those found in meat.

Well, I certainly haven 't read all 42 pages of this debate but I will say that ever dince watching Food Inc. I'm glad that almost all my meat is wild, killed and processed by myself. I live very close to a beef feedlot and have worked on numerous farms so I have a little first hand experience with how the industry works. Oon many of the farms, I'd have no issue about eating the meat but from the feedlot and a few other places I can safely say I'd avoid that meat if possible.
I try to eat veggies as often as possible but would not consider ever becoming a vegetarian. I do know a couple of vegetarians and they seem healthy enough, although not more so than your average person. I've hada few lively debates with one of them and in the end we just agree to disagree. I'll be a hunting my own meat as long as I can. It's in my blood, I enjoy a good day of hunting more than probably anything else I can think of. I don't need to kill something either,as long as I see a fewe critters I'm happy. I went out today and saw about 12-14 deer and 4 coyotes. Deer season is a long ways away yet, but I still like to go out and watch them. I admire their ability to survive in these conditions, I was out for 2 hours trying to get through 3 foot snow drifts and feeling like I was about to have a heart attack! They have got a real nice network of trails packed down that they can travel on, although I did find where the coyote's got a few of them. These conditions are especially bad for the deer,as the snow is crusted enough for the coyotes to travel over but not the deer.Makes them easy prey if they get into the deep stuff. Going out soon to try and thin the yote population a little,as they are pretty thick out there.

Personally,I think we should stop eating carbohydrates.
We don't really need them.Boycott carbs today!

reply to post by rusethorcain


My opinions in regards to vegetarians/vegans can be summed up in one sentence.

Save a cow eat a vegetarian.

Because can we really consider those that relegate themselves to the status of herbivores as human beings?

Suppose you rounded up every vegan/vegetarian and put them on a) another planet or b) their own continental landmass.

After a few thousand years I wouldn't be surprised if the vegan/vegetarians started to de-evolve. Or rather adapt biologically to their new diet. Let's face it humans are among the few species that have a good portion of our internal energy going to our brains(Dolphins too I believe, and if I recollect correctly they don't consume only algae). Protein and other nutrients from meat gives us cheap,easy energy. Granted some meats like red meats can be hard on our digestive tract and cause heart problems(which is why I consume mostly poultry/fish), but feeding an entire population of vegetarians would be problematic. A few bad harvest's, natural disaster or internal struggle(because if your on your own world we won't have to deal with you, on your own landmass bubble shield), such things are disastrous for omnivores, for herbivores(which is what vegetarians really are) it would lead to mass starvation and malnutrition.

Given enough time the Vega's would evolve into something unrecognizable in comparison to the omnivore Humans. So if the end result of their actions is to cease being human then why should we consider them human in the first place and allow them to drag us down with their cult like mentality?

----
Mostly sarcasm, but the idea that a switch to herbivore status could cause undesirable biological adaptations is relevant.

reply to post by korathin

Mostly sarcasm, but the idea that a switch to herbivore status could cause undesirable biological adaptations is relevant.

Assuming a well balanced diet, why wouldn't the biological adaptations be desirable? What nutrition is solely available by eating from the Animal Kingdom and lacking in the other kingdoms? As far as I know, nothing.

A few bad harvest's, natural disaster or internal struggle(because if your on your own world we won't have to deal with you, on your own landmass bubble shield), such things are disastrous for omnivores, for herbivores(which is what vegetarians really are) it would lead to mass starvation and malnutrition.

The same problems threaten the live of omnivores. If there is a bad harvest, what will the livestock eat? Not to mention the larger amount of food you will have to produce to feed the livestock in the first place.

Given enough time the Vega's would evolve into something unrecognizable in comparison to the omnivore Humans.

It is true, we are evolving. You choose not to, and that is only natural when you are addicted to fear. (Saracasm?)

reply to post by Vandalour


Rubbish.

It was the diet of increased protein and animal fat that has driven human evolution and intelligence.

reply to post by Fimbulvinter


It is true that without animal derived foods humans could not have a diet that offered enough sustenance to thrive. This is not proof that eating meat kick started brain development. Increased socializing, development of advanced language and other cerebral activities would have much more to do with the increased brain development than diet.

Today - at least where I live - an immense variety of foods are available. It has been shown that non-animal food sources provide optimal nutrition. Animal based foods are not inherently bad - but they are not optimal when compared to foods sourced from the other kingdoms of life.

Originally posted by Vandalour
Sometimes I wonder why we slaughter other living creatures and eat their flesh, im thinking of stopping eating meat completely... sometimes when eating a tasty burger it hits me that im eating a corpse

Hey Vegan pretending to be a meat eater...


EVERYTIME YOU EAT A PLANT YOU ARE EATING A CORPSE!!!
PLANTS ARE ALIVE AND BREATHE AND PHOTOSYNTHASIZE AND SOME EVEN EAT ANIMALS!!!!


(click links embedded above please for sources)


There, with that said, I am sure you are going to be very hungry because you are certainly not a hypocrite right? I mean if you don't want to eat anything that was once living, your only choice left is DIRT.

Have fun with that.

Every time I read one of these sanctimonious posts from a vegan or vegetarian I get seriously annoyed. They eat living things all the time, but since they are not "animals" they do not count? Everything we eat was once living... EVERYTHING. Organic by it's very definition is LIFE!

Please vegans and vegetarians please tell me how eating a cow is any different than eating a plant? When replying make sure you first acknowledge that plants breath, feel and some eat other living things.


Are those crickets I am hearing?

I have no issue with what someone else chooses to eat or not eat. But I do take issue with BS and the need to force opinions onto others dripping with hypocrisy and ignorance.

Originally posted by gormly

Originally posted by Vandalour
Sometimes I wonder why we slaughter other living creatures and eat their flesh, im thinking of stopping eating meat completely... sometimes when eating a tasty burger it hits me that im eating a corpse

Hey Vegan pretending to be a meat eater...


EVERYTIME YOU EAT A PLANT YOU ARE EATING A CORPSE!!!
PLANTS ARE ALIVE AND BREATHE AND PHOTOSYNTHASIZE AND SOME EVEN EAT ANIMALS!!!!


(click links embedded above please for sources)


There, with that said, I am sure you are going to be very hungry because you are certainly not a hypocrite right? I mean if you don't want to eat anything that was once living, your only choice left is DIRT.

Have fun with that.

Every time I read one of these sanctimonious posts from a vegan or vegetarian I get seriously annoyed. They eat living things all the time, but since they are not "animals" they do not count? Everything we eat was once living... EVERYTHING. Organic by it's very definition is LIFE!

Please vegans and vegetarians please tell me how eating a cow is any different than eating a plant? When replying make sure you first acknowledge that plants breath, feel and some eat other living things.


Are those crickets I am hearing?

I have no issue with what someone else chooses to eat or not eat. But I do take issue with BS and the need to force opinions onto others dripping with hypocrisy and ignorance.

Ummm.. Im not a Vegan ninja, I eat meat.. But I was just wondering why

reply to post by korathin


What a riot. Save a cow, eat a vegetarian...lol

Perhaps consider taking your act on the road.

I have a friend named Jane who I love.
We were having a dinner with a group of friends and Jane was tearing into a big fat steak. One person at the table was a vegetarian and made the fool hardy move of deciding to comment on her own dietary preferences to Jane. I will never forget her response ... "Oh you are a vegetarian are you...then I am a little higher up on the food chain than you are. I EAT VEGETARIANS."

We all got a good laugh...Of course Jane ate vegetarians and carnivores alike but that is another story altogether.

All of the vegetarians i know have a problem with their health.

Humans are omnivores, end of story. Eating the correct amounts of meat and veg keeps us healthy and energetic. There's certain vital vitamins and fats that are found in meats that we as humans need that cannot be found in plants.

I believe that if you are not a vegan you support cruelty to animals.
I also believe that I am a part of nature.
I eat meat.
I do not feel guilty about it.

It's funny how vegans cal people who eat meat 'carnivores', as if all they do is gnaw on raw meat all day.

I used to be a vegan. For close to five years, preceded by about five years of vegetarian. Then I realized I was eating packaged produce from thousands of miles away. So I ate a roadkill deer a friend found. I was so damn good. Then another friend started hooking me up with local, raw cream and milk. And it was so incredibly nourishing I realized I clearly benefited from such animal fats in my diet.

Nowadays I source nearly all my food from local farms these days, from grains to veggies to meat and dairy. To me, supporting small, local sources is far more important than the moral posturing of the PETA vegans.

Most 'vegan' info seems to be based on the idea of massive monoculture corporate farms producing 'vegetarian' food fro growing masses of homogenized humans. No thanks. It's unsustainable. Animal husbandry and farming go had in hand, and while it's certainly not REQUIRED to eat the animals, it's nonsense to say that eating the animals is bad, wrong,etc. It's a choice. Leave behind the handwringing.

.If some want to be vegan that's fine, but I detest the manipulation of data and extremist ideology that accompany the seeming majority of vegans out there.

I have found Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions" to be an excellent resource for anyone interested in real nutrition