When will we stop being our own worst enemy?

reply to post by TrueBrit


Wow. Just, wow.

You're sitting there wishing death on others in 'Ufology', but THEY are the ignorant ones??

reply to post by cupocoffee


I dont wish death on any of them, but its a hell of a lot more likely they are going to die , than do some solid research any time this centuary.
You made an example a couple of posts ago about a fella who apparantly made it with an alien woman, and has some kids somewhere that are half alien.
You know what? I have no scientific reason to say its impossible, because we have never attempted knowingly to mingle the DNA of mankind and the DNA of another species of humanoid being in the lab. Until we do and it fails, I wont poo poo it. Nor will I believe outright that what you say happened to this man , actualy happened! I will wait for relavent data, and I will refuse to comment until I have something concrete to say on the matter, and that would largely depend on the results of any experiment done to prove things either way. A reasonable and logical course of events , I think you will agree.

PS : By the way, would you like to explain why you think that ignoring reason , science and logic in favour of blind faith is benificial to the cause of serious UFO investigation??

reply to post by TrueBrit


Yes, now that is an open-minded and reasonable response.

Either he's lying or he's telling the truth, there isn't enough evidence to prove anything either way, but at least you were willing to think it through and you didn't dismiss it outright.

reply to post by cupocoffee


Well that is the absolute description of scientific method. You only theorise on the results of the experiment, not based on your predictions of the results . Its an important distinction, but often misrepresented. Sciences are disciplines where closed minds do not get far after all .

Originally posted by TrueBrit

PS : By the way, would you like to explain why you think that ignoring reason , science and logic in favour of blind faith is benificial to the cause of serious UFO investigation??

Where did I say that?? Quit putting words in my mouth!

But now that you mention it, there are some things in life that you simply cannot do without a little faith. For example, the notion that ETs can be contacted by means of meditation techniques and telepathy. Well there is simply no way to test such a premise without taking a bit of a "leap of faith" and try it and see what happens, right?

I've tried it. Now does that make me some whacko "UFO spiritualist" that deserves to die? I don't think so.....

reply to post by cupocoffee


No trying it doesnt make you any thing less than curious and intrepid. But, and heres the kicker, YOU having respect for science, would allow yourself to be connected to some sort of brain scan whilst performing this test, or if you found that you HAD contacted something, you would allow yourself to be tested would you not?
Many (read all) of the people who have ever claimed channeling, started saying " Oh well, I would but that would be unholy" or something like " the star gods would be angry if I did that, and burn my hipocampus straight out my skull for such a thing" and prevent themselves being examined scientificaly .
Zealots.... theres just no place for psuedo religion, or even regular religion in this investigation. There is enough that is obsfucated, by the governments of the world for one, without believers shooting themselves in the foot by getting all woodstock about things ! It really doesnt help!
What would help is these religious nuts burning thier Preists of Mars robes, and donning a white labcoat,and doing some REAL work on the subject and contributing facts rather than half seen maybes and an awful lot of '___' to the subject. Those hundreds of wasted minds could be out in the field watching the skies for falling space stuff, UFO and evidence of ET but instead, they are indoors, or sitting with thier eyes shut or blocked from the view of the sky, in prayer to something they are to frightened to look upon without faith to explain it. It is that fear and intolerance, that insistance on creating a narative for something which has the right to create its OWN narrative which infuriates me.
Until an alien comes unto me and proclaims with the voice of God himself, " I am an Angel of the lord" I will not believe that aliens are angels, or demons. That isnt happening. Until aliens come to me and say " we are the star gods, we started the races of the Egyptians and the Incas and Aztecs and so on, jolly fine pyramids I thought... pretty proud of those really heh !" I will not believe for one solitary second that they had a damned thing to do with it.
Im sorry I mentioned blind faith, but Im sorry , on matters of science, it should be left squarely at the foot of the mountain of REAL power which makes up the body of work which science encompasses to sort out the mess of evidence for and against ET existance, and all the bishops of the rings of saturn, and thier strange followers should go home, and stay there till the answer is arrived at by persons at least 90% more likely to arrive at a conclusion of merit , than they are.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
No trying it doesnt make you any thing less than curious and intrepid. But, and heres the kicker, YOU having respect for science, would allow yourself to be connected to some sort of brain scan whilst performing this test, or if you found that you HAD contacted something, you would allow yourself to be tested would you not?

Oh sure, I'm all for the scientific method and for testing and measuring things.

With this particular concept though, I have some concerns that would need addressing.

The premise (Steven Greer's technique, actually) is that if you get a group of like-minded people together and use various meditation and hypnosis techniques to get everyone into the same heightened state of consciousness, that state of concentrated and focused "groupthink" then creates a strong "signal" which the ETs can pick up on and respond to.

So if I have say 10 like-minded people who are willing to try it and meditate together, but I also have a little team of scientists there who are sitting there thinking "Meh, this hocus-pocus will never work", well then the group consciousness is no longer unified, but fractionated, right?

Will the "signal" be as strong if some of the people there don't "believe" or have as much "faith" as the rest? I don't know....

So I think for the time being, it's better if I don't have any hardcore skeptics or pessimists there.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

So I ask, out of all honesty, when will we stop being our own worst enemy? Serious question

you can not change ufology by complaining

the fact that you have complained for years and still nothing has changed proves that point

the only way to make the changes you would like to see is to lead by example

be the change you want and show everyone how it should be done instead of wasting your time ridiculing

are you up to that challenge ? inquiring minds want to know

Originally posted by easynow
you can not change ufology by complaining

the fact that you have complained for years and still nothing has changed proves that point

the only way to make the changes you would like to see is to lead by example

Very well said easynow!

You are right, complaining about what others are doing serves no useful purpose at all.

I would love to see someone like ITF show some leadership - but lead us in doing what?

reply to post by cupocoffee


thanks cupocoffee,

negativity only breeds more negativity and more videos of sky lanterns



i believe some where in the back of ITF mind is a smoking gun ufo thread

and i wish he would change channels and belly up to the bar and share it with everyone

reply to post by easynow

i believe some where in the back of ITF mind is a smoking gun ufo thread

and i wish he would change channels and belly up to the bar and share it with everyone

Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I want to believe this stuff as much as anyone here I'm sure. I have been around the block a time or two in this field, and have spoken with many, many people concerning the subject. Some of the people I have had dinner with would certainly turn some heads. So yeah, I have some juicy tidbits of information that I am not at liberty to share (sorry, no smoking gun though), and every now and again I run into threads that, while not a smoking gun (that doesn't exist, trust me) they are diamonds in the rough.

The odd thing is, the threads that I think are a diamond in the rough I really can't join in and say much, and I know there are other members that would love nothing more than to add what they know as well. But, since that can't really happen, the best threads in my opinion die an early death while the Hilary Clinton shape shifter crap goes on for pages and pages. But the best threads are also the most boring, and lack the sensationalism of the absurd as well.

So yes, I guess I do admit to contributing to what I would consider to be the downward spiral of this subject by not helping the threads that I think are onto something. I will effort to belly up to the bar more often. There are many here guilty of that, but the simple thing is some of us actually do know some stuff, but don’t feel comfortable posting it. So we hint at stuff in some of those threads here and there and the tuck our tails between our legs and show ourselves the door.

However, my lack of real participation in threads I think are onto something has little to do with the initial point in my opening post. The signal to noise ratio in this subject is so out of control, a few level headed conversations aren’t going to change anything at this point.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFactsbut the simple thing is some of us actually do know some stuff, but don’t feel comfortable posting it. So we hint at stuff in some of those threads here and there and the tuck our tails between our legs and show ourselves the door.

Yeah I --know-- what you mean!

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I want to believe this stuff as much as anyone here I'm sure. I have been around the block a time or two in this field, and have spoken with many, many people concerning the subject. Some of the people I have had dinner with would certainly turn some heads. So yeah, I have some juicy tidbits of information that I am not at liberty to share (sorry, no smoking gun though), and every now and again I run into threads that, while not a smoking gun (that doesn't exist, trust me) they are diamonds in the rough.

Don't get me wrong i completely understand why you do what you have done and i agree the real signal is almost unrecognizable because of all the garbage and you know as well as i do that is by design. having some "juicy tidbits" and not be able to share them is understandably frustrating but i think for you to proclaim there is no smoking gun anywhere based only on your circle of knowledge is a bit presumptuous and naive. i know things about UFOs that i won't divulge and have never told anyone and based on what i know there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever there is indeed plenty of smoking guns. in other words you might want to go have dinner with some more folks before preaching to the choir. that's just some friendly advice

The odd thing is, the threads that I think are a diamond in the rough I really can't join in and say much, and I know there are other members that would love nothing more than to add what they know as well. But, since that can't really happen, the best threads in my opinion die an early death while the Hilary Clinton shape shifter crap goes on for pages and pages. But the best threads are also the most boring, and lack the sensationalism of the absurd as well.

would you mind pointing out some of the threads that you think are "diamonds in the rough"

no need to elaborate on them just some links will do , thanks in advance

So yes, I guess I do admit to contributing to what I would consider to be the downward spiral of this subject by not helping the threads that I think are onto something. I will effort to belly up to the bar more often. There are many here guilty of that, but the simple thing is some of us actually do know some stuff, but don’t feel comfortable posting it. So we hint at stuff in some of those threads here and there and the tuck our tails between our legs and show ourselves the door.

it's good to see your honorable enough to admit being part of the problem

and obviously your not alone. on a different level, i am guilty as well.

However, my lack of real participation in threads I think are onto something has little to do with the initial point in my opening post. The signal to noise ratio in this subject is so out of control, a few level headed conversations aren’t going to change anything at this point.

i agree the signal to noise ratio is out of control and i admit there were a few times (not many) when i was actually glad you chimed in and cleared the room so to say. however i disagree with you that a few "levelheaded conversations won't change anything" and i think your just making excuses so you won't have to embrace the challenge of approaching things in a positive learning way instead of your usual operandi. they say it's possible to attract more flies with sugar than you will with salt ? i wonder if it's true ?

The real question is:

When are you going to actually contribute anything besides repeating the same thing over and over?

Your consistent? The only thing I have ever seen you be consistent at is calling others ignorant and telling them everything they say is all nonsense and you never back anything up.

You make zero sense. I've seen you post your usual rants in one thread, then later on in another thread that's very similar, talk about how it's a "diamond in the rough" and then imply you know more than what you're saying because of people you know. Make up your mind.

That's what gets on my nerves about you. You say that outside ATS you'd be great to have a beer with, but once on ATS it's another story. Do you realize that when you describe yourself like that you make it sound like you just get on here to troll? Another thing is how you imply you know more than what you can actually say. Apparently because you have had dinner with some special people. Here's an idea, prove it. You never back up anything you say so I don't see that happening anytime soon to be honest.

Your handle says it all: IgnoreTheFacts. Ignore the facts and go straight to ranting about ignorance and nonsense over and over.

I can't believe you haven't been banned. That's another thing you're consistent at, finding new ways to go about your insults without breaking any rules.

You and The Shrike a.k.a SkepticalEd would be great friends. You both sound exactly the same. Constant insults from the both of you, every once in a while you both imply there's more that you know but can't share because of these special people you know and neither of you really back up anything you say.

/end rant before I say something to get myself banned

reply to post by cupocoffee


Well thats a fair point, but there are people I am sure who have the capacity to work scanning equipment and also have the capacity for meditation and so on. The problem is not insurmountable, but for some reason has not been overcome in the name of credibility. Greer particularly is a bad example because regardless of his protestations to the contrary, he eschews scientific validation of pretty much most of what he says.
Now, again, I am not a skeptic in the sense that I do not dismiss the idea of alien life. I consider it a firm probability, based I have to admit , on largely circumstantial evidence over the course of many decades of accumulation. However, of methods of investigation which cannot be recorded, which are easily falsified, which involve the use of the skill set of a mentalist, I am skeptical. Where meditation and so on are concerned, the persons involved are not perfect, can lie, can be mislead, and if Greer is anything like the wit that I believe him to be, I wouldnt be at all suprised if he is capable of behavioural manipulation of a very subtle and deniable nature.
Although scientists too ,can be mislead, and be flawed in thier morals, the key difference is that assuming equal access to data and testable material (for example craft parts, alien tissue samples, space rock with extraterrestrial microbes attatched to them) many scientists, may test the material at thier leisure and one can assume that at least one of these people will be sufficiently honourable in thier intent, that they would prevent obsfucation of the truth, should they spot any glaringly interesting features in the results of thier labours. The only thing standing therefore between science and the truth, is access to the materials which people in the UFO interested community believe governments are with holding from the people, and laws passed which prevent any but civillian investigators from determining the origin of a downed peice of tech in the event of a crash. These things would put a full stop to the possibility of future denials by government, and allow the people who can best find out, and explain the origins of any given piece of supposed evidence, access and freedom to do so.
That is the way forward. Other methods, while interesting, seem to be several paces back along the road to me.

Look people WE all think we are right, when we are wrong we are right. I can not guarantee you Disclosure but I can guarantee you that you will find that point of the road that ends sooner or later . That end is a part of life, when you realize you are a bit more than a man and much less than the center of the universe. There is and will always be things we will not fully understand and feeble victory's we will overcome in our understandings. The human race carries on without you,with or without your beliefs and the great unknown will always challenge us. To close that door only hurts YOU. leave the door open, not just for you but for all.

Originally posted by Unknown Soldier
Look people WE all think we are right, when we are wrong we are right.

Thankyou, I have lost count how many times I have tried telling people I am right all the time. Its hard work being me

In all seriousness, Op you always say the same thing,

"I met someone and they told me this and they told me that, but I am not at liberty to talk about it, sorry"

"I could tell you a few things I have been round the block once or twice, but I am not at liberty to tell you"

We hear you , really we do, its time you put all that behind you and embrace everyones ideas with an open mind even though they may not fit with your beliefs and ethos, you never know you may just learn something.

Carol Rainey, ex-wife of Budd Hopkins, explains how Hopkins and David Jacobs were negligent, gullible, and dishonest in the pursuit of promoting themselves and their premature beliefs and conclusions:

The Priests of High Strangeness
Co-creators of the "Abduction Phenomenon"

www.paratopia.net...

This article is a 'must read' for all who have a sincere interest in the truth.

Originally posted by easynow
you can not change ufology by complaining

the fact that you have complained for years and still nothing has changed proves that point

the only way to make the changes you would like to see is to lead by example

Easynow, that's beautifully put.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts


I will always be talking about electronic mind control, no matter what happens, these people are out there ruining my life totally.

If you and others think its nonsense, that is your bag not mine, and i know my info is factual on it.