Obama calls "America" an "Experiment"?

reply to post by halfoldman


Ummm I answered a simple question you posed and then commented on writing. But since you're brought it up, it appears to me to be clear this refers to a comment about a nation by its president. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're talking about.

reply to post by ~Lucidity

Well, you said that using "America" as a shorter term for the US was common, and (at least from what I interpreted) if misunderstood elsewhere as anything but the USA it is their sloppiness in not mentioning another specific country in the Americas.
Here, in South Africa, writing "America" when referring to the US would get a big red question mark on any student essay (trust me, I know).
My point is it may be common usage for you, but no longer for us.
The usage reflected global politics.
Here we have a documentary titled: "America: the Story of Us", and it only repeats snippets from US history.
But it's OK, thanks for your reply.
It is different from every position.
The reply that you gave was not incorrect.

OK, let me be more forthright.
I generally think that what I have seen of this Presidentially introduced documentary is just terrible.
I fail to see how it gives a fair interpretation of history.
Not only that, but the digital enhancements and scenes cannot hide the fact that it was cheaply shot somewhere else (in Africa, perhaps rather fittingly).
To use "America" in the title sounds jingoistic and totally out of touch with global harmony.
To forgo Native American comment from the outset in favor of elite family celebrities seems downright un-American and populist.
Yet, people have little problem accepting a speech, and a selective series of lies and half-truths as "history".
I suppose the one reinforces the other.

Originally posted by halfoldman

To forgo Native American comment from the outset in favor of elite family celebrities seems downright un-American and populist.

Im Blackfeet.. one generation off of the rez. I have NO idea what you are talking about and stop speaking on behalf of NAs. We didnt make "America"... the whites did. WHy would we comment on something not originally of our making? They made a country by a design.. not us. Their people did their thing and we ours.. my tribe kept all of its ancestral and tribal lands and they reach into Canada.. we didnt have any say in Canada's formation or govt either.. I dont get what you are saying..

America is a common word used to describe the US of A. Not everyone got so childish about the term until recently... it certainly shows that others like to dictate to us here what we can and cant call ourselves. I may be Blackfeet and a tribal member of the Blackfeet Nation but Im an American. I have lived the "American Dream" and will not be petty enough to turn my back on this country when others feel they have a right to make judgments when they really have no clue as to what they are talking about. Ive reaped the benefits of being born within her borders. I will have no one speak for me but myself.

The ONLY people who every try to cause or point out false divisions between the Native Americans and the US of A are the wanna bes, hardliners of which are few, and foreigners who have the audacity to speak for a people they know nothing about.

reply to post by Advantage

Hi, I'm talking about a specific documentary film titled "America: The making of Us".
I made my position as an "outsider" clear from my OP.
I am comparing the content of this specific series to the expectations raised by the title.

You give a great explanation once again on how people from inside the US might feel on the topic.
However, I think one can also speak from a convergence of historical narrative, and in the series Native Americans remain hidden mostly, when that is not accurate.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

Hi, I'm talking about a specific documentary film titled "America: The making of Us".
I made my position as an "outsider" clear from my OP.
I am comparing the content of this specific series to the expectations raised by the title.

You give a great explanation once again on how people from inside the US might feel on the topic.

edit on 16-1-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

Ahh gotcha.. 2 words : revisionist history. Maybe just one word would suffice : propaganda.

reply to post by Advantage

Yeah it's so ridiculous.
There were several thousand native peoples in the area of settlement, and a hundred settlers (an estimate).
But the natives just stayed invisibly behind the trees with their bows drawn!

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

Hi, I'm talking about a specific documentary film titled "America: The making of Us".
I made my position as an "outsider" clear from my OP.
I am comparing the content of this specific series to the expectations raised by the title.

You give a great explanation once again on how people from inside the US might feel on the topic.
However, I think one can also speak from a convergence of historical narrative, and in the series Native Americans remain hidden mostly, when that is not accurate.

edit on 16-1-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

Native Americans didnt remain "hidden" in the series.. we had no real hand in the formation of the country.The series is a narrow production about the making of America.. not everything involved in America or the expansion. Plenty of other pseudo docs about that.

My ancestors fought in the revolutionary war and civil ( by choice.. we had no draft or no one compelled us. we liked the idea of America and didnt particularly like the British Rule or their initial treatment of us if truth be told) .. but we had no hand in the actual formation or concept of the grand experiment. It was in truth the whites that formed this concept and implemented it... and this is what the doc is about. Sure whites did bad things to us NAs.. and plenty of immigrants that came here... but in the end its up to each of us to see the reality of it all, see the true history and not the propaganda, and decide for ourselves what truth we feel is correct. We see where we all fit into this country.. its not a bad thing and never was....Masonic symbolism or not.. which I personally have a giggle over. Methods arent always gentle and the native Americans knew the nature of the whites when they set foot here.. maybe not all tribes, but the tribes who maintained their ancestral lands sure did! LOL! Long history lesson I am too irritable to go into tonight.

I will never allow a tv show of all things to decide my feelings on a subject. WIthin NA families we speak of America as our country. Our people is a different thing.The two concepts can coexist just fine without outsiders trying to dictate whats proper or liberals who think they know whats good for us to demand we comply with. We are comfortable with the truth that we did not form this original idea nor did we participate in its mutation over the yrs. We see the greatness of this experiment. Its part of who we have become too.

Besides, Obama can read anything you want off of a teleprompter. He can come pretend he knows about us too if given a script. Basically TV shows are not facts. Documentaries are not 100% correct and are injected with the makers person views. To treat such produced things as fact and truth.. you'll never understand anything. Just like we will never understand S.A. by the BS we are fed over here about it.. its biased and untrue. Few of us ever care to delve into the truth of your country's struggles enough to understand it... its much easier to make decisions based off of flawed information on some stupid news report or TV show.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

Yeah it's so ridiculous.
There were several thousand native peoples in the area of settlement, and a hundred settlers (an estimate).
But the natives just stayed invisibly behind the trees with their bows drawn!

They settled in a lot of crap areas we wouldnt have lived.. it wasnt sustainable. Thats why they died off early and had such horrible hardships.. and why NAs came to them to help them initially.

You have to hand it to the whites though.. they sure as hell dont give up easy and arent quitters! Goes to show how desperately important settling this land was to them and escaping British rule was to them. It was by far more than the common idea of some "experiment".. it was their actual lives and everything they believed in at stake. Its quite admirable really. Only the petty settle on the bad things.. there were good things regardless of how my people suffered at times ( some things done on purpose by bad men)... but not all men are bad . In the majority, the country was an absolute phenomenon. To have become what it did so quickly.. the country is an infant really.. is astounding. I guess we will ALL see in which way it grows now.

The story of this country needs no dramatic BS as we see on these documentaries. If the real bare bones facts were laid out without the emotional music and visuals.. it still is an absolute incredible phenomenon. I suppose thats why it pains some of so much to see what it has become. I still say men do bad things but not allmen are bad.. we still have hope.

reply to post by Advantage

It's an inspiration still to many nations.

I'm more concerned with reading film, like historical texts.
For example, the immense uninhabited landscapes with two movie ideas of "American wilderness".

The country itself is as it may be.
I'd question more why a certain vision, or interpretation of the US is sold and endorsed right now.
It's almost going backwards in certain ways.

Youre being sold an idea.. with musical and visual cues. Every doc uses the same BS that we discovered way back when.. like in horror movies. LOL! Use music and visuals to evoke a certain response no matter what you claim the documentary is about or what it really contains. Been doing that since silent films.

Now, the doc you mention isnt a real problem. We do have massive expanses of open pristine land here. Im just using it as an example. Your OP doesnt jibe with your last documentary example though In your OP the music was used as well as the visuals to evoke a response and you are being told what to think.Kind of different than your last example. What exactly do you think the problem is with the depiction of open land and uninhabited expanses? Im curious how youre interpreting this.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

It's an inspiration still to many nations.

Historically inspiring maybe.. What better be taken from it all is what you can suffer if you allow your govt to run amok.. we cant live on as legends in our own minds forever because we WERE incredible among many once upon a time. We need to see with clear eyes what we are today. As should you and every other country.

reply to post by Advantage

So I take it you're happy with the series.
Great.
Nothing against wide open spaces, except that historically the land was not empty.
I wonder if Europe of Africa could ever be shown like that?
My last music post was Rammstein where I tried to show that the generic term "America" can be used with irony.
It was a debate around the term, which I tried to show was not always positive.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to do or think.
In fact, it's usually the opposite.
I certainly won't come to "America" to watch the documentary - they broadcast it to us!

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

So I take it you're happy with the series.
Great.

Not happy nor unhappy. Thoroughly unimpressed is more like it. Its one among a plethora of the same. Its just repackaged occasionally.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

So I take it you're happy with the series.
Great.
Nothing against wide open spaces, except that historically the land was not empty.
I wonder if Europe of Africa could ever be shown like that?
My last music post was Rammstein where I tried to show that the generic term "America" can be used with irony.
It was a debate around the term, which I tried to show was not always positive.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to do or think.
In fact, it's usually the opposite.
I certainly won't come to "America" to watch the documentary - they broadcast it to us!

edit on 16-1-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

WHat do you mean the land was not empty? In areas it was ALWAYS empty historically and presently. The number of indigenous folks here in the US was never whats it is believed to be with some people. It wasnt a densely inhabited country by ANY means before the whites came here. Many of those places are still uninhabited.

reply to post by Advantage

Well I'm very glad they had the addictive tobacco.
They didn't have that much else back then, I suppose.

reply to post by redhorse


That's it. I was thing Alexis de Toqueville but it was TJ that said it. Thanks.

reply to post by Advantage

Yeah right.
It was so empty that an eagle could soar from the east coast to the mid-West and not see a single human town or village?
(Of course here in the narrative it speaks of the settlers' fantasies - but fortunately for them there were always locals to sponge from.)
But maybe the camera chose a trajectory that missed all those inhabited spots?
It could be possible.
But the documentary itself speaks of a kingdom of 20 000 from the Powhatan Nation.
Everybody Hide!!!

That's one thing I agree with him on. It was an experiment. Sink or swim would giving people freedom and liberty work? It was never about having a great economy, or a great military (that just happened). Dangit, it was about freedom and rights and would people thrive in such a place? I think the answer came when practically everyone had disposable income and instead of donating money towards making the world better, or exploring space/technology, everyone decided to buy new houses and new cars, and so now the elites know people can't be relied on to move the world forward.

But to understand America was an experiment, quite different from the rest of the world, is to understand it pretty well.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Advantage

 

Well I'm very glad they had the addictive tobacco.
They didn't have that much else back then, I suppose.

What in the world are you talking about now... Youre really showing your ignorance here or you watch WAY too many movies.
Okay, think whatever you want. We have NO open uninhabited land here and we all smoked tobacco because there was nothing else to do. Priceless!


Have a great night! Thanks for the chuckle.