Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

It shouldn't even be allowed in cases of rape. If you're raped and you don't want the child that comes of it, put it up for adoption. The biggest answer to the pro-choice argument is ADOPTION. If you don't want the child I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who do.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I don't know why someone would utilize such an easily crushable arguement like this, but it is only funny because it is so off base, that it MUST be satirical, but I'm sure it's not.

"Easy crushable", and yet...

Did you have a valid contribution to make, KrazyJethro, or are you just joining in on mwm1331's right-wing crusade?

This whole debate is about sex my friends. It is about action and consiquence. It is about responcibility and the choice to not put yourself in a comprimising position if you don't want to get comprimised.

Don't be stupid people, then abortion won't even be a debate. But god forbid we judge the action of another.

Mental opulence in the land of judgementless correctness. Enjoy the new definitions for life, responcibility, and consiquence.

Originally posted by Faisca
It shouldn't even be allowed in cases of rape. If you're raped and you don't want the child that comes of it, put it up for adoption. The biggest answer to the pro-choice argument is ADOPTION. If you don't want the child I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who do.

How can you say this? Have you known anyone who was raped? It isnt always because someone dresses too sexy, or goes in places they shouldnt. It happens on university campuses, at work, and god forbid even in your own home. These poor women are scarred for life, its a scarlet letter, a huge R on the chest. Most feel unsecure and paranoid even in serious commited relationships for the rest of their lives. To take away their choice for abortion after this is reprehensible. Imagine looking into a childs eyes or even delivering said child and knowing what the father was, A MONSTER of the highest order, how could they love that child or even bring it into the world. I dont support abortion EXCEPT in two areas, extreme medical-mother or child will die (or be severely deformed) and in rape cases. So Im pro-chice by default I guess, but with exception. NO ONE has the right to say what a mother can do with her fetus except for the father, if that father is in the mothers life and there by his own choice. I do believe that the fetus is a seperate entity from the mother, but that mother has ultimate choice. Government should not encroach on these rights. Abortions should be provided by licensed clinics so that it doesnt have to be done in less-than-sterile circumstances, and it should be cheap. If the mother is a minor, then parents should be consulted but they should not make the choice for the child, and I agree that there should be a waiting period of at least a few weeks, when the mother can be presented with literature on alternatives to abortion.

[edit on 7/8/2004 by zsandmann]

Pro choice is a nice way of saying murder. Women's rights are great and everything but when it comes to a third parties body, she shouldn't have that right anymore.
Isn't Scott Peterson being tried for two counts of murder?? Even though his son was still in the womb?

You can keep saying women's rights, my rights, i'm a human , nobody can tell me what i can do with my body blah blah blah...


Point is, when you walk into the obygn room, he'll ask you if you want to abort adopt or have the child.

Abort, means to kill it. Should you have that right to kill it?

I don't think so... The abortion issue is a very emotional one because the people who are pro life are standing up for the fetus who doesn't have a voice, the little human being that is about to be born.

The self women out there only have the one argument to stand on, It's my body and I shoudl get to do with it what i want. Well yes you can , but when there is a third party involved you shouldn't get that choice anymore.

It's not up to them to say whether I want this baby to live or die because it's not their body , it's the babies body.

You do however have a choice to use protection when you have sex, so you don't end up in this mess.

You do have a choice for adoption, but many women are selfish and say they can't do that because then they would want to keep the baby once they see it.

So their selfishness gets in the way of a baby getting a chance at life.

Pretty pathetic if you ask me, and i'm not perfect I was stupid when I was 17, I had an abortion and everytime I hear about it it breaks my heart. I feel so guilty that I did that, and it was because of my selfish reasoning.
If I had the chance to do it all over again I would of put it up for adoption or may of even kept it, but I would of definitely ruled out abortion...

Originally posted by Faisca

It shouldn't even be allowed in cases of rape. If you're raped and you don't want the child that comes of it, put it up for adoption. The biggest answer to the pro-choice argument is ADOPTION. If you don't want the child I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who do.

Adoption isn't as easy as it seems. Ive got several friends who were adopted, most of them went back to the orphanage. adopting, to alot of people, is just "trying out" a kid to see if they like it. Then, they decide they want one of their own. This is a stupid reference, I'm not using it for proof, just as an illustration..ever seen the movie "Rent a Kid"? Its not too far fetched. Plus, the people that do adopt kids for keeps all seem to be participating in this lovely new trend of adopting from overseas.

My thoughts an abortion? I'm not going to stop anyone from doing it. I wouldn't get an abortion, but then again, I haven't gotten raped yet. My opinion might change entirely, depending on what might come. It's not as if women are thinking, "Oh, I prefer sex without a condom. But I might get pregnant...Oh well! I'll just walk into the local abortion clinic, get rid of the baby, and go home with a smile. Hooray!"

TrueLies- you said that once a third party (the baby) gets involved, itsn ot just the womans body anymore. But that whole "third party" thing doesnt come to the mind of rapists or child abusers.

[Edited on 7-8-04 by Scat]

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

Which is one of the cornerstones they use to support the "disenfranchised" on welfare.

Protection from Moral responsibility and consequence should be in their mission statement.

They defend a hell of alot of people who can't step up to the plate on a count of them being mentally hanicapped.

Funny how they will defend guilty people on death row and then support abortion as if it wasn't really murder that was the case...

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

So what if lets say 2 teens are having sex, the condom breaks and ZAM the girl gets pregnant.
Would condemn them to have the baby at the age of , lets say 16, even if it isnt their own fault?

Scat ,

There's also a movie about children getting to pick and choose their parents..
Mommy market or something...
They wish they didn't have the parents they did and so they go to the market to pick which one they do want.

And just because there are stupid people out there that just want to try on a kid like a pair of pants doesn't take away from the vast majority of people (millions) that want a child that a- can't conceive b- want a child that isn't wanted c ----- d----- e---- ect... millions of people have different reasons, you can't just throw adoption out the window because of those select few morons that you mentioned.

Adoption is a very important and very real issue for us, it lets women who can't have children still have the opportunity to have one even though it's not their own blood, and it enables people to take a child or a baby from those who don't want anything to do with it.... Adoption is supposed to be there for women, men, and couple who CARE about life even though it's not from their own blood...

It's apparent that those who do have children from their own blood in many cases don't give a # about them so if they don't give a # about them, give them to somebody who does... Not murder...

Pretty pathetic if you ask me, and i'm not perfect I was stupid when I was 17, I had an abortion and everytime I hear about it it breaks my heart. I feel so guilty that I did that, and it was because of my selfish reasoning.

Thank you for sharing that. As painful as it is for you, maybe someone considering abortion will read it and be spared your regrets. I'd say if many parents to be could sit down with someone who has went through it and listen to how it made them feel, they'd change their minds. In no way should this regret be yours alone. I venture to say if you'd had a supportive responsible partner, it would have been easier for you to take on the task at such a young age. This is a problem that is concentrating a good deal on women but men are just as much and probably more to blame. I don't think any woman wants to do such a thing and I think its time we men stopped putting them in such a precarious position. If a man loves a woman enough to be intimate with her, then he should love her enough to help raise their child. Its not like parenthood is punishment. The rewards far out weigh the work.

Well im against abortion. Even if you don't want it, its still a life and no one has the right to take life away. If you don't want it, give it to a couple that cannot have children instead of killing it. Some couples try for children for years and fail, so if you get pregnant and don't want it, give it to someone who does.

Originally posted by TheSwordMaster

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

So what if lets say 2 teens are having sex, the condom breaks and ZAM the girl gets pregnant.
Would condemn them to have the baby at the age of , lets say 16, even if it isnt their own fault?

There is such thing called the morning after pill for emergency situations such as this, you don't have to wait a month to do something about it...
you have 3 days to do something about it in this kind of situation....

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

On this I would have to disagree with you, Ivan. To the majority of women it has nothing to do with "freedom from consequences and moral responsibility".

The problem begins with the definition of "life", and what the government says is the beginning of such. It ends with the woman having to make her own decision on what she feels would be best for her, the fetus, and her relationship with God.

In between there are the questions of feeding, and taking care of such.

The gov't decrees a baby is legal when the mother gives birth. Thus, the birth certificate. During the first trimester the fetus cannot survive without using the mother's nutrients. I hate to put it in these terms, but a "parasite"? I believe that is why abortion is legal during the first trimester.

One argument I always here is the woman should go ahead and have the child then put it up for adoption. There are millions of abortions done yearly. Did anyone ever stop to think how many unwanted children this would be if they were all shipped off to a home?

Yes, many make a mistake in the "heat of the moment". Does one want a baby to suffer because two teenagers in the back seat of a Toyota got too hot and heavy? Yes, I understand responsibility. That is why many of the responsible do have that abortion. They are not ready for a child-not grown up enough for that responsibility. It is a BIG one.

In the end it comes down to the mother. She is the one that must make the decision. It is between her and God. The way it should be.

If one felt their baby was going to be born with all types of defects, etc. who is going to help the mother with such? Many times they are doing the baby a "favor".

This is what I really don't understand about conservatives.

They claim they want the government out of their business, however keep insisting the gov't does something about abortion, God, flag burning, etc.
What they really mean is they want the government out of their business unless it is for something they believe.

The true "liberals" are the ones wanting government action on such things. They are the ones who want the government to act on their behalf.

Originally posted by TrueLies

Originally posted by TheSwordMaster

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
it should only be allowed in cases of rape. you know why the liberals want abortion? freedom from consequences and moral responsibility, which is what they are trying to get

So what if lets say 2 teens are having sex, the condom breaks and ZAM the girl gets pregnant.
Would condemn them to have the baby at the age of , lets say 16, even if it isnt their own fault?

There is such thing called the morning after pill for emergency situations such as this, you don't have to wait a month to do something about it...
you have 3 days to do something about it in this kind of situation....

You cant always tell if the condom breaks. Happened to a friend of mine, they didnt realize it and in few weeks she was pregnant. she had an abortion, though it wasnt that far so it was easy to "take care of" so to say.

IMHO, I would like to point out a few things:

1st, I believe that NO MAN should even be part of this debate, as it has nothing to do with a man's body. This is a women's health & morality issue, and women should be the one's deciding it's outcome. To me, it would be no different if a group of women made up some law that said " all men must have one testicle removed". Imagine that!

2nd, one of the sticking points in this arguement is a person's definition of life. Whenever I need a definition for a word, I consult my handy Webster's Ninth New College Dictionary. The definition of life, according to Webster, is:

"1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings - compare VITALISM 1 c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction".

When your are talking about a pre-formed human, whether it is a zygote, embyo, or fetus, I do not believe it qualifies as "life" by the definition. It may be a "form" of life, but it is not "alive".

A fetus is neither vital, nor is it functional (and by that I mean fully functional - a fetus is an incomplete prototype tha cannot sustain itself, even briefly, outside its pre-completion environment). A fetus is much more akin to a dead body than it is to a living human being. It displays no quality of life as does an animate, living human, such as sustained independent respiration, consumption of food, or the ability to interact with its environment. And while it may display the ability to grow and have a metabolism, and even react to stimuli, this can only happen via the neural pathways and blood supply provided by the mother, to which the fetus is an integral part.

Surely there are moral questions that are called into play when a woman is faced with making a choice. This is a decision that can and will effect that person's entire future, and the potential future for the possible new being. Let the woman make the choice and deal with the consequences. It is her body (including the zygote/embyo/fetus) and if she can't control the form and function of her own body, even if it means putting her own health at risk, can a woman in this country ever consider herelf to be free?



[edit on 8-7-2004 by Pyros]

I'm so not gonna touch this one...last one of these got me in trouble...just look at the old ones...you will see every argument that is getting rehashed here...anywho...

Originally posted by astrocreep

Thank you for sharing that. As painful as it is for you, maybe someone considering abortion will read it and be spared your regrets. I'd say if many parents to be could sit down with someone who has went through it and listen to how it made them feel, they'd change their minds. In no way should this regret be yours alone. I venture to say if you'd had a supportive responsible partner, it would have been easier for you to take on the task at such a young age. This is a problem that is concentrating a good deal on women but men are just as much and probably more to blame. I don't think any woman wants to do such a thing and I think its time we men stopped putting them in such a precarious position. If a man loves a woman enough to be intimate with her, then he should love her enough to help raise their child. Its not like parenthood is punishment. The rewards far out weigh the work.

You are right about the men or I should say boys because if they were real men they would be pulling up their pants... Half of the reason why I went through with it is because he wanted me to. Mind you he had 2 partners before that each had one, then me, then one more after me had one..
I was 17 he was 23, I guess that saying " you get wiser with age" doesn't apply to him.
I do take responsibility for the sex part because we didn't use protection -duh, when your in the heat of the moment and it feels so good sometimes you just turn your brain off... And I didn't think I was pregnant then because I was on the pill, if I had known I would of went to the doctors to get the morning after pill, it wasn't until I started eating weird things andeating alot that I figured out I could possibly be.. He got pissed and thought I was lying, he made me take a pregnancy test in front of him and told me he hopes that i'll go through with an abortion. so that was half of it, the second reason was that I wasn't responsible at that age I could hardly take care of myself so to take care of another child was a burden on me, not to mention I knew I wouldn't have the dad their in my life because he was an asshole.
But again, if I had known sooner I would of taken the morning after pill... you have 72 hours after conception... But yes, men have alot to do with it aswell.

Originally posted by TheSwordMaster
You cant always tell if the condom breaks. Happened to a friend of mine, they didnt realize it and in few weeks she was pregnant. she had an abortion, though it wasnt that far so it was easy to "take care of" so to say.

Your correct, and thats why it's important to use any kind of contraceptive if you don't want to get into this mess, I understand they were using a condom, thats smart, it's too bad it broke, but she was smart enough to realise it right away and do something about it...

I have a problem with "handling" the situation later on down that road, if you find out your pregnant later on, I stronly believe abortion shouldn't be an idea then, I'd say adoption or keep it.

It's amazing that people think of babies this way like a "burden" on themselves all because they don't want to have the responsibility of owning up to the problem, they just want to toss it aside and think nothing else of it.

Well it does come back to biteyou in the ass later on down the road once you get a full understanding of the whole process and learn that there are caring people out there who would love to have a life to take care of other then theirs.

Originally posted by Pyros
IMHO, I would like to point out a few things:

1st, I believe that NO MAN should even be part of this debate, as it has nothing to do with a man's body. This is a women's health & morality issue, and women should be the one's deciding it's outcome.

I wouldn't use the dictionary to learn what the word "life" is.... There are many different perspective on what life means, and in this case it has to do with a fetus getting the chance to live without having a third party get in the way and try to stop that from happening...

Second, it's very important for men to talk about abortions as much as females because they are the ones who took part in conceiving, and they have a very big impact on what a women thinks because well, men can pressure women, either to or not to have an abortion. Men can also mentally abuse women into not having a child because they wouldn't want it or whatever the case maybe.
Men do play a very important role in this issue..

Just because a baby is in the womb of a female doesn't make the whole problem hers. There's psychological aspects you have to look that would impact the female, and men play an important role in that.

Half of the reason why I went through with it is because he wanted me to. Mind you he had 2 partners before that each had one, then me, then one more after me had one..

Oh my, if there's anything to this re-incarnation business, he'll probably spend his next life as an enzyme in a sewage treatment plant. Its clear to me that no woman would take such action no matter what her age if only for the support of the other responsible party was there.