To add fuel to the fire really toiy have THREE intrests here, Mother, Child and the one almost never mentioned the Father.

Isnt it strange that if born you will have to care for it by law but you have NO say in whither it can be aborted?

I myself hover right on the line on this issue and dont think it will EVER be settled to everyones satisfaction.

A good first step would be for one side to admit that sometimes its needed and the other to admit that it should not always be the answer.

Somewhere in the middle lies the answer.

[edit on 20-8-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
To add fuel to the fire really toiy have THREE intrests here, Mother, Child and the one almost never mentioned the Father.

Isnt it strange that if born you will have to care for it by law but you have NO say in whither it can be aborted?

That was pretty much my situation with my ex-girlfriend, I told her I would never abandon the child, but she was NOT going to have that child. Since it was her body, and she would do it one way or the other, my concern then was to get it done as early in the term as possible, so it was not drawn out any longer than need be, and the embryo did not develop any further. The mother should definetly take the father's wishes into consideration, unfortunately they usually don't. But I'm sure we both agree thats between the two parents, and the government should not be involved in our personal lives any more than they already are.

I just want to say to you folks, I see exactely where you are coming from, exactely. I totally admire your respect for life of any kind ( i am a vegetarian ) I think it is sick having to terminate a child. I personally feel it is only ok if done within a few weeks. As soon as a child begins to form a brain and such ( as has been discussed) it is not right at all.

But...at the end of the day you cannot take away that choice. However something has to be done, this cannot be another form of birth control.

27jd,

It has everything to do with the discussion, after all we are talking about life. Why I posted those pics is because when people talk about discussions as these usually they don't think about people has human beings, if I was to draw stick people and then post real pics most people would identify when the real picture then the stick people, how can you have emotion towards a stick person? Take both away and how can you think about life without seeing it... Anyway, it does make it more interesting when you add pictures...

And someone said that babies are parasites on the mother, which is bs...
So I just wanted to ask that person if those babies looked like "parasites" also you were once a baby also... Where would you be if your mother terminated you?? So, it has everything to do with the topic, I don't know what thread you think your in, but maybe you should read the headline again... Also, why do you like stirring # up? You always seem to want to get a rise out of people...

Originally posted by TrueLies
27jd,

It has everything to do with the discussion, after all we are talking about life. Why I posted those pics is because when people talk about discussions as these usually they don't think about people has human beings, if I was to draw stick people and then post real pics most people would identify when the real picture then the stick people, how can you have emotion towards a stick person? Take both away and how can you think about life without seeing it... Anyway, it does make it more interesting when you add pictures...

If you say so, maybe you can identify because it's YOUR family, to me, they are just pictures of people I don't know. I would have just as much emotion towards stick people. Showing pictures of babies is a cheap way of making a point, I have a son too, I know how wonderful children are, but it takes a certain amount of time for the tadpole like creature we start out as to form into a cute baby, and it's not anybodies place to force their beliefs on anybody else. You, being a Libertarian, should be aware of that.

And someone said that babies are parasites on the mother, which is bs...

The defintion of a parasite is a creature that lives off nutrients provided by a living host, so scientifically, yes, until born, the child is technically a parasite. That doesn't mean it's a leech or something, I don't think that's what the poster was getting at.

Where would you be if your mother terminated you??

The same place I was before my parents had sex.

So, it has everything to do with the topic, I don't know what thread you think your in, but maybe you should read the headline again... Also, why do you like stirring # up? You always seem to want to get a rise out of people...

OK, if you think it does, whatever. I'm pretty sure I know what thread I'm in. And it's easier to get a rise out of you than a teenage boy at the Playboy mansion. But that wasn't really what I was trying to do, as this is a serious topic.

Amuk you raise n interesting point about the fathers rights. There was a very well publicised case recently where a man and women had consensual, protected sex( they used a condom) afterwards the woman saved the condom nd was artificially inseminated with the mns sperm, then sued for child support. The judge decided that even though the man had taken steps to prevent pregnancy nd that the woman had intentionally mpregnated herself against the mans wishes, that he had to pay chld support because by ejacualting he had LOST THE RIGHT TO HS SPERM. Now my question is is a woman has the right to save a condom and force the man to have a child he is legally responsible for why do men (the fathers) not have a right to block the execution of ther child?

Another point, while I feel that abortion is wrong I am not advocating outlawing it entirely, however I believe it should only be allowed in a very brief window (say first 1-2 months) and that afterwards should only be allowed to save the mothers life. While most women don't, some do use abortion as a form of birth control. Also I think that the father should have the right to block the abortion if he is willing to bear the full financial burden for both the pregnancy and the child.

Originally posted by mwm1331
I dont understand the so called "pro-choice" movement never have never will. Aside from the fact that I think its misnamed, (afterall the child being killed doesnt get a choice) I just cant accept that the murder of an unborn infant is not morally reprehensble. But this thread isn't about me or my views its about you and yours (yes I'm talking to YOU) so tell me How do you justify the so called "pro-choice" stance?

THE CHILD DOSN'T HAVE A CHOICE?!? OH AND WAS THE CHILD ASKED IF IT WANTED TO BE BORN! I THINK NOT.

This is the problem we can't kill 'coz we intrude upons someones autonomy, so by the same reasoning we can't create life as this ALSO INTRUDES UPON SOMEONES AUTONOMY. Forget the woman whos body it is and YOU are taking desisions for!

This is all about autonomy, and any other opinion other that the right to choose is INTRUDING ON SOMEONE ELSES AUTONOMY!

I know its hard for people who subscribe to religion to know what autonomy is as they were relieved of it some time ago.

Thats what I love about you corinthas, I can always count on you to represent the irrational.

I absolutely agree on the serial abortion. I've seen this too, and it has always made me curious about a person who could go through the procedure again and again. I wish they could somehow be sterilized, but that's another issue for another thread!

It's all going to boil down to prevention. The abortion issue is one that won't go away, whether it's legal or not. The legality of it won't matter in regards to the continuing need/desire for it. More effort must go into prevention of the situation than into this drastic "solution" to the problem. Men and women both need to be involved in the discussion because it takes both to enter into a pregnancy, planned or unplanned. It needs to stop being a "woman's issue" or a "pro choice/life" issue. It's a societal issue and affects everyone. Many parents won't address it. More and more schools are unable to address it sufficiently or effectively. Many religious groups simply won't address it in realistic terms, but rather in the context of right and wrong. The only people I've seen getting hardcore into it, oddly enough, is MTV et al with condom commercials and anti-AIDS psa's.

Originally posted by Corinthas


THE CHILD DOSN'T HAVE A CHOICE?!? OH AND WAS THE CHILD ASKED IF IT WANTED TO BE BORN! I THINK NOT.

In this case, The child was spawned from stupidity and ignorance, and would be terminated by stupidity and ignorance of another human life.
Selfishness was the beginning of the problem and selfishness is the end result of the problem. Use a #ing condom, use birth control, use a #ing diaphram, get depo-p!!! I guess when your monumentally stupid, this happens.

This is the problem we can't kill 'coz we intrude upons someones autonomy, so by the same reasoning we can't create life as this ALSO INTRUDES UPON SOMEONES AUTONOMY. Forget the woman whos body it is and YOU are taking desisions for!

"Can't create life because this intrudes upon someone else's autonomy"? Please, get over yourself, that is such a weak argument...

creating life because you want to is one thing, creating life by being selfish and lazy is another, bringing a life into the world and then putting it in a position where it doesn't have a leg to stand on is wrong.

These women don't want to take the adoption route because they just can't imagine it going into somebody else's arms, somebody that would be responsible and respect the babies life is just unbearable for them.....

If someone who can't pick up a condom, a diaphram or birth control pill is having sex, then yes, I think that the decision should be made for her...

Obviously her stupidity is getting in the way of logic and good decision making skills, I wouldn't want her on the road driving a vehicle either....

This is all about autonomy, and any other opinion other that the right to choose is INTRUDING ON SOMEONE ELSES AUTONOMY!

Just like people's driver's liscence's get suspended and taken away because they used poor judgement and perhaps killed someone, why let them keep their liscence and continue to have the choice to drink n drive, and kill someone??? Why should they be allowed the choice?

same thing with abortion laws, why give somebody the choice to kill a fetus when it was their stupid ass that put them in that place to begin with? Selfishness perhaps wishful thinking, perhaps just not caring...
If you can't pick up a condom or the pill before sex, you shouldn't be allowed to choose abortion obviously their decision making was poor the first time, second time around they shouldn't get that option. It has nothing to do with religion sweety. It's pure logic.

And it shouldn't be such a bad thing anyway because the baby would get put up for adoption and taken care of, so the stupid chick wouldn't have to worry about taking care of a baby... Everybody wins.... However, for selfish, illogical brains out there I can understand it would be hard for them to fathom.

I know its hard for people who subscribe to religion to know what autonomy is as they were relieved of it some time ago.

Wow, good burn.... not.



[edit on 23-8-2004 by TrueLies]

earthtone, I respect your opinion myself and largely agree with your stance. I hate to see any law get enacted because people inveribaly lose everytime a politician does anything. Still, someone has to seek some middle ground on this. I think we can all agree that some measure of protection for the innocent, unborn or not is in order. Granted, we as a society, at this point, should be cognitive of the worth of life, especially of the children. If we would all realize that with the gift of life come responsibilities as well, I think we'd see this as a non-issue. The scope of whats happening is broader than any US law, IMO, it speaks to the very heart of mankind. If we could even minimize the suffering of the child if its something thats medically unavoidable with use of drugs or anything but the ritual as it is today is , to say the least, cruel and barberic. A terrible was to die.

My point boils down to this, you are not born with a right to run willynilly doing any damn thing your heart desires. To be granted a life, I think we all have responsibilities. If a woman gets pregnant that child becomes her formost responsibility as well as that of the man who fathered it. Like it or not, people, I think ultimatly you're all going to find that to be true. Some will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into their responsibilities and they may even deny them, but if you talk to a woman who's went through this, I think you'll find the price is quite high.

As for Lady V's friend who uses it as birth control, she has most certainly given up on herself. She may not admit it to you but we all have the moments in life when we can't reason our actions away in the darkness of a night alone. She faces her demons whether she wishes or not. Did you ever think she's so lose because she cannot bare to be alone with what she's become?

I can't stand to think my son would have even a tummy ache without trying to help him feel better. If someone even had a though of brutally killing him, they just as well do it to me too.

The funnt thing is, as a young man, I never felt this way. I was fine with abortion and looked at it as a way out if I ever got my girlfriend pregnant, of course I had never had a child and was a selfish teenager. We all grow wiser with the years that pass, or at least we should, and the more all you experience, the more respect for life you will have, especially the innocent.

Originally posted by astrocreep
earthtone, I respect your opinion myself and largely agree with your stance. I hate to see any law get enacted because people inveribaly lose everytime a politician does anything. Still, someone has to seek some middle ground on this. I think we can all agree that some measure of protection for the innocent, unborn or not is in order. Granted, we as a society, at this point, should be cognitive of the worth of life, especially of the children. If we would all realize that with the gift of life come responsibilities as well, I think we'd see this as a non-issue.

Well said... omgosh that was well put...

If people didn't think of the unborn as children I don't think they would have enacted the laci peterson law.....Which John Kerry voted against...

Goes to show some people have no regard for human life except for their own, agreed that if society recognized the gist of life comes with responsibilities it would be a dead issue...

Well said brother, well said...

Thanks, True Lies. The distrubing fact is, many people don't want to here it until it suits their needs. They will say we all have a responsibility to our children when it comes to protecting the environment and resources, but fail to mention we also have a responsibility to our children to not kill them. I think its just human nature to use things for our choice arguments and yet turn a hypocritical blind eye to it when it interfears with our happy go lucky lifestyle. Not everything in life is fair ,or nice or the way we would envision it to me. No, its not fair for a woman to have a child she conceived from being raped. Then why are we so soft on rapist in our criminal system? It may not be an ideal situation but in some measure we have to know its a life nontheless and treat it as such. How many of us have had to take responsibility for something that wasn't our fault? I venture to say all of us at point or another. Its part of life and sadly, death as well for many children bare the responsibility for something that wasn't their fault....and pay with their very existence.

Here's my 2 cents...

I don't even need to read the last 9 pages to see that there would have been much arguing back and forth. There would be many valid points brought up on both sides and many ignorrant points as well. All my life I have been pro-life. Why, well mostly because it's been bashed into my head that abortion is evil, pure and simple. I've grown up a bit and while I have most of the same views I have some new ones as well.

I think it all comes down to the little thing that instilled in all of us. Conscience, soul, moral fabric...whatever you want to call it, it's there. Some people's levels of the thing inside us are different. Some allow themselves to feel no remorse for the aborted life, some feel disgust for those that do. How do you tell someone who doesn't care about the life they are aborting that they are wrong? How do you tell someone who is disgusted with the act that you do not feel you are terminating a life? It all boils down to what you will or won't allow yourself to do. Somepeople know that it is "morally" wrong but still proceed with the act due to the desire to not be responsible for anyone other than themselves. That is a decision that they will have to live with for the rest of thier lives, and perhaps that will be enough of a moral punishment in itself. The bottomline is that we have officially crossed that line of what we a a civilised world will and won't allow. We will never go back and that, to me is a sad fact. We have made a stance as human beings to say that the termination of ones inconvenient life to to help keep anothers life more convenient is acceptable. This is something that you can't go back on. How could we? How do you set a precedent to allow such things, then say it's wrong? What do you do to right the transgression to the uncountable loss of lives?

Anyway, that's my view on it. What's done is done, and we are left to stick out the decisions we made till the end of time.