It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


The conspiracy of the false legend of the Grail

page: 1
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in


posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:42 PM
It doesn't take too much research to locate the facts that the Grail story is purely fictional, yet so much legend hangs around the poem from which this story was written.

The source of the grail story is Chretien de Troyes, a Frenchman from the 12th centruy.

Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote about the conception and birth of Arthur at Tintagel and Arthur's marriage to Guinevere (he calls her Ganhumara). Wace created the Round Table and Excalibur. Chretien de Troyes is the man that created Camelot, Lancelot, and the Holy Grail. Although Chretien de Troyes did not describe a grail as a chalice, he appears to have used the word in the meaning of a flat serving dish. The current description of the Grail as a cup came later from by Robert de Boron.

The story of the grail comes from the story of Perceval.

Perceval knows nothing of chivalry as he has been brought up by his mother deliberatly in ignorance of such things. One day Perceval meets five knights by chance and joins them. He meets Gornemant de Gohort, who warns him against asking too many questions, a trait that Gornemant says is ill-mannered.

He falls with Blancheflor, whom he rescues from her enemies, but he finds that his mother has died of a broken heart.

Perhaps Perceval main adventure happens when he meets a mysterious fisherman who offers him shelter in his castle. When Perceval, he finds the fisherman already there, lying on a couch in the great hall. A strange procession enters the hall, with a young man carrying a bleeding lance, two squires with a golden candelabra, a beautiful maiden carrying a golden graal, and another beautiful woman carrying a silver carving dish. Remembering Gornemant's warning not to ask questions, Perceval fails to ask what the ceremony means. And the consequence of this is that the fisher king is not healed, he would have been had Perceval asked whet the procession meant. Perceval learns that the Fisher King is sustained by a single mass wafer served to him each day in the graal. The story by Chretien de Troyes ends here.

The origins of the story of Perceval comes from the Welsh story of Peredur son of Evrawg, which is considerably different than than the popular tales most of us grew up with. This story is part of the Mabinogion. The origins of the Mabinogion are not clear, but the first four books are most likely ancient pre-Christian, pre-Roman tales that describe a very complex system of beliefs. It is hard to believe that the ancient Britons were as primitive as history classes want to make them out to be, considering the sophistication of these tales, but that is another issue.

Preserved in written form in the White Book of Rhydderch (1300-1325) and the Red Book of Hergest (1375-1425), portions of the stories were written as early as the second half of the 11th century, and some stories are much older still.

The Welsh story of Peredur son of Evrawg is a strange tale indeed, but there is no Holy Grail, and it seems that Christianity is hardly mentioned. Most likely the origins of this story came after the Roman soldiers left Britain, and before Christianity took hold. The story rambles, but manages to stay interesting. I suspect there is a great deal of symbolism that is yet to be extracted from the story.

Here is a link that summarizes the story of Peredur.

Peredur rides from his first uncle's castle and meets his second uncle, who is sitting at a table. After sharing a feast, Peredur's uncle instructs him on how to use a sword by striking it against an iron column. As Peredur strikes the column with his sword, the column and the sword both break in two. Peredur's uncle tells him to rejoin the sword and the column, and then to strike the column again. Peredur does so again; when he strikes the column with his sword for a third time, Peredur is unable to rejoin either the sword or the column. Peredur's uncle tells him that this test indicates that he has developed two parts of his strength, with the remaining part yet to come(225-26).

Peredur then witnesses a procession of a bleeding spear and a large salver that contains a bloody severed head. Peredur wishes to know the meaning of the things he has seen, but remembering his other uncle's advice, he chooses to wait until his uncle provides an explanation. Since his uncle does not provide an explanation to these wonders, Peredur remains quiet (226).

When Peredur returns to the castle of the Lame King, he learns that the severed head belongs to his cousin, who was murdered by the hags of Gloucester. This is inconsistent with the story, however, since Peredur is told about these mysteries before he has had a chance to ask any questions. Fulfilling a prophecy, Peredur avenges his cousin and his uncle by slaying the hags. There is no indication that the Lame King, either as a result of Peredur's return to his castle or as a result of his vengeance against the hags, is restored to health (254-55).

New, being that this is a tale about Briton, and evidence indicates that this is most likely the original tale, this is probably the accurate origin of the Grail story, in which there is no Grail, and no connection to Christ. The whole Grail portion of the tales of King Arthur tales makes no sense. The Peredur story does make sense.

How and why has the Grail story grown so out of proportion to its weak origins?

If anything, in our modern time, when so many know about the different versions, it makes even less sense that the Holy Grail story continues to grow and expand. It seems to be continually pushed out and expanded upon by the very upper levels of academia who should know better, unless there is a conspiracy behind the tell that is being symbolically spread out for hidden reasons.

posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:56 PM
reply to post by poet1b

I've been waaaay down in the ancient mythology rabbit holes, and the topics they deal with make the grail story look like the fairy tale that it is.

"Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

Thats from the gospel of thomas. I won't go into some of the mischief one can find when researching certain topics, but I personally have come across ideas that were so disturbing that just thinking about them was crushing............(and it took a few days to get over it) yeah, the grail story is lolly pop land stuff.

posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:18 PM
reply to post by Khaaaaaan!!

I can think of a few reasons why this story has such legs.

One, it eventually draws the inquisitive to the Mabigonion, which essentially lays out the religion of the ancient Britons. A religion with far deeper and far more honest understanding of the nature of humanity.

The second is that it possibly tells of how Mary Magdalene and perhaps Jesus of Nazareth escaped to Briton or France.

The French version doesn't need the Grail portion of the tale, if anything, the Grail portion distracts from the story of love, friendship, betrayal, family quarrels, incest, war, sorcery, and all that.

Another reason might simply have been to encourage Europeans to join in the fight to retake the Holy Land.

posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 05:24 PM
Is this a conspiracy? Or just part of a religion? There are all kinds of religions with all kinds of stories. Are they just stories or would you consider them ALL conspiracies?

BTW: of course the Holy Grail story is a fable...where is the conspiracy?

posted on Jan, 5 2011 @ 12:04 AM
reply to post by The Motorcycle Boy

Hate to break it to you, but most people look at the grail story as legend. While a higher percentage of people on ATS might be aware of the truth, the general population remains ignorant. There is even a religion based on the belief that Mary Magdalena traveled to Briton. Of course there is the popularity of the Da Vinci Code, and the book it was based upon and all the tales of the Knights Templar.

Why is this story tied to the Arthur legend, a true legend from Briton of the Once and Future King.

We know about the connection between Zoroastrianism, Mithra, and Christ, but could there be an even deeper connection to the Druids, of the ancient religion of the original Brits? We now know that there were stone circle religious sites in the oldest cities know in Neolithic site of Göbekli Tepe in Turkey similar to Stone Henge. Are we looking at the bread crumb trail to the real history of civilization.

posted on Jan, 5 2011 @ 01:00 AM
You asked me if I was interested in this topic

To delve into the truth of the Grail mystery one must seek in the esoteric camp. You want conspiracy and intrique, follow the Rosicrucian trails... though that is not easy.

But as Khaaan has stated.. sometimes you learn things you did not expect, nor desire.

Manuscripts from the early centuries of the Christian era give details of numerous characters and events that were strategically suppressed in ecclesiastical doctrine. Within these documents are records concerning the descendent family of Jesus, a dynastic bloodline identified in the Vatican Archive as the 'Heirs of the Lord'.

Much has been discussed in recent times about the possibility of such a lineage, but first-hand historical evidence of the family has never yet been fully presented. Through a process of documentary analysis, The Grail Enigma now reveals the facts of this sacred genealogical descent.

Continuing the trail of detection begun in 1996 with his Bloodline of the Holy Grail, Laurence Gardner now adds a good deal more information in this regard, including texts dating onwards from the 2nd century that document Mary Magdalene as the 'Bride of Christ'. Even back in the 1st-century Gospel era, the marriage of Jesus and Mary was chronicled in detail. Unique to any book on the subject, The Grail Enigma contains previously unpublished genealogical charts that trace the messianic offspring, Tamar, Joshua and Joseph, detailing each generation of their lineage through 600 years through to Arthurian times.

The Grail Enigma
The Complete Story of the Hidden Descent from Jesus
Laurence Gardner'

Laurence Gardner is a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland. Distinguished as the Chevalier de St. Germain, he is a constitutional historian, a Knight Templar of St Anthony, and is Presidential Attaché to the European Council of Princes. Laurence Gardner passed away on the 12 August 2010.

The Secret Doctrines of Jesus (Rosicrucian Library)
by F.R.C., Ph.D. H. Spencer Lewis

The Mystical Life of Jesus
by F.R.C., Ph.D. H. Spencer Lewis

Harvey Spencer Lewis

Harvey Spencer Lewis F.R.C., S.·.I.·., 33°66°95°, Ph.D. (November 25, 1883 – August 2, 1939), a noted Rosicrucian author, occultist, and mystic, was the founder in USA and the first Imperator of Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis (AMORC), from 1915 until 1939.

Bloodline of the Holy Grail
The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed
by Laurence Gardner

The time-honoured quest for the Holy Grail has been referred to by some as the 'ultimate quest', but in 1547 the Church condemned Grail lore as a heresy even though tradition perceives the Grail as a thoroughly Christian relic.

A heresy is described as 'an opinion which is contrary to the orthodox dogma of the Christian bishops'. The word 'heresy' is nothing more than a derogatory label - a tag used by a fearful establishment that has long sought to maintain control of society through fear of the unknown. It can therefore define those aspects of philosophy and research which quest into the realms of the unknown and which, from time to time, provide answers and solutions that are quite contrary to authorized doctrine.

As the years progress, however, it is evident that scientific and medical discovery must overturn much of the medieval religious dogma that has persisted to modern times. And, in this regard, some previously cited heresies are already being taken on board by a Church that has little option to do otherwise. So, let us begin with the most obvious of all questions: What is the Holy Grail?

The word 'Gra-al' originates from ancient Mesopotamia, where it was recorded as being the 'nectar of supreme excellence'. It was directly related to the bloodline of kings who descended from the gods - those monarchs who were anointed with the fat of the sacred Mûs-hûs: a type of monitor-crocodile in the Euphrates Valley. By virtue of this anointing, the kings were also called Mûs-hûs (or, in Egypt, Messeh) - a term which in the later Hebrew tongue became Messiah, meaning Anointed One.

Bloodline of the Holy Grail : The Hidden Lineage of Jesus

So yeah, Poet I am interested
but generally don't pursue this line of research at ATS. It's too noisy here for such studies
. In fact "Zorgon" comes from an archaic reference to a General of Uther Pendragon... something that took me two years to document within the SCA to be able to use the name "Zorgon of Shalott"

My 'theme song"

"The Lady of Shalott"... poetry written by Alfred Lord Tennyson and ballad sung by Lorenna McKennitt

Most times that life is more real for me than my mundane life

Whatever one believes about the Grail Legend matters little... but the ride is worth it. There are few places left on this planet where Honor and Chivalry still reign... welcome to my world...

Long Live the King and Queen of CAID!!

posted on Jan, 5 2011 @ 09:19 PM
The Grail allegories follow a formula that is at least as old as the Books of Moses. The author has a story to tell, but he cannot present it literally because it is of a sensitive nature, so he selects an unrelated story to serve as “cover” or “cloak”. Names and other details of the cover story are changed to metaphorically represent characters and events related to the hidden story, but enough of the original story is kept so that it can still be recognized. (Of course, those parts of the original story that are kept must also fit in metaphorically.) This deflects attention away from the story that has been hidden beneath the cover. In essence, the allegory serves as a code. The stories hidden beneath the cover are the real conspiracy.

posted on Jan, 6 2011 @ 02:00 AM

Perceval knows nothing of chivalry as he has been brought up by his mother deliberately in ignorance of such things. One day Perceval meets five knights by chance and joins them. He meets Gornemant de Gohort, who warns him against asking too many questions, a trait that Gornemant says is ill-mannered

"And he searched, and began at the eldest, and left at the youngest: and the [color=gold]cup was found in Benjamin's sack."
- Genesis 44:12

The legend of the grail is very obviously lifted from genesis chapter 44. In line 44:1 Joseph has the cup, the silver cup, and has one of his men plant it in their baggage.

When his steward caught up with the men the next day and accused them of making off with the sacred cup "whereby indeed he divineth" the men were so sure of their own innocence that they said "with whomsoever of thy servants it be found, both let him die, and we also will be my lord's bondmen."

There are clues to this original source of the legend in many Arthurian stories. Take the movie "Excalibur." Perceval, when he first arrives, is shoved into the kitchen. The rest of the movie is disaster and the never ending quest for the grail. Eventually Perceval has seen enough death and brings the cup back to Arthur. Of course the implication is that he stole it while working in the kitchen.

But as the evidence in genesis chapter 44 shows, the story is much older than that.

David Grouchy

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:45 PM
reply to post by poet1b

Your post is what you end up with when you don't really understand what you are looking at. Even though your search is thorough and accurate, you miss the point.

The Grail story is an allegory from beginning to end, and the 'surface' story is a fairy tale. There is no physical Grail artifact to search for and never has been. None of the authors who related the story, whether Pagan or Christian or Deist, was under any delusions that there was such an physical artifact.

The Grail is in fact, self awareness, consciousness, enlightenment, personal salvation. The quest is about psychology, not archeology or anthropology. Only those who have yet to answer the call and begin their own quest are stuck in pursuing the 'surface' story as the true point of the story.

This is the truth that the legend describes: that the search for enlightenment is a difficult, dangerous, and worthwhile adventure.

For a better understanding of the meaning of The Quest, and the stories about it including the Grail, the story of Tristan and Isolde, and others, I recommend an immersion in the works of Joseph Campbell, especially his masterpiece "The Hero With a Thousand Faces", and his magnificent "The Masks of God, Volume IV: Creative Mythology".

Wikipedia has a very approachable introduction to Campbell's central theme of the Hero's Journey: Monomyth.

One of the stages of the Hero's Journey is described thusly in the Wikipedia article:

The Ultimate Boon

The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest. It is what the person went on the journey to get. All the previous steps serve to prepare and purify the person for this step, since in many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail.

Campbell: "The gods and goddesses then are to be understood as embodiments and custodians of the elixir of Imperishable Being but not themselves the Ultimate in its primary state. What the hero seeks through his intercourse with them is therefore not finally themselves, but their grace, i.e., the power of their sustaining substance. This miraculous energy-substance and this alone is the Imperishable; the names and forms of the deities who everywhere embody, dispense, and represent it come and go. This is the miraculous energy of the thunderbolts of Zeus, Yahweh, and the Supreme Buddha, the fertility of the rain of Viracocha, the virtue announced by the bell rung in the Mass at the consecration, and the light of the ultimate illumination of the saint and sage. Its guardians dare release it only to the duly proven."

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:21 PM
reply to post by zorgon

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I wasn't able to post yesterday.

Yeah, I have been interested in Arthurian tells since I was a boy, but this new twist on the Grail part of the story was new to me when I heard about "The DeVinci Code". What I didn't realize until a few years ago when I purchased a copy of the Mabigonion, that the Grail part of the Arthurian story was added by a French man.

I would think he was aware of the true nature of the allegory behind the Grail story. I wonder if that angle has been pursued by those caught up in the Grail legend.

I am more interested in the Mabigonion. Have you read it or are you familiar with it. If not, then you are in for a treat.

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:43 PM
reply to post by swordwords

Yes, but my point in this thread is that one allegory, the grail story, has been inserted into another allegory, the tells of King Arthur. My guess is that the popularity of the Arthurian tales was the reason why, giving rise to the Grail legend.

What I wonder is why an Englishmen like TH White would use the French version of the story, promoting the Grail myth, and not the original story, which I think is better.

In the original Mabigonion, the first four books are an allegory that is being used to re-establish the Druid religion. I still don't understand why more people aren't aware of this.

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 07:17 PM
reply to post by davidgrouchy

I guess that could make sense, the Genesis tale mixed with the tale of Peredur son of Evrawg.

The Arthurian tales were made famous previously by Geoffrey of Monmouth, which is the source of the Merlin portion of the tale.

At the time of Jesus, many Romans were sending their sons to school ran by the Druids in Briton. Could Jesus have attended a school of the Druids?

Could this be the reason the Grail story was attached to the Arthurian tales?

There is a very curious part of the Peredur story. Towards the end, but before he saves his wronged uncle from the Hags of Gloucester, Peredur takes place in a tournament to win the hand of the Empress of Constantinople, which of course he does, and then spend 15 years with her. Could this Empress have been Mary Magdalena, or her descendant?

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 07:20 PM
reply to post by rnaa

Um, no, I understand the concept of a quest, and all the symbolism. Maybe you might take another look at what I am trying to say.

Maybe my last three posts might clear things up a bit.

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 07:46 PM
reply to post by poet1b

Um, no, I understand the concept of a quest, and all the symbolism. Maybe you might take another look at what I am trying to say. Maybe my last three posts might clear things up a bit.

OK, so you are confused why storytellers steal ideas from other storytellers?

If the answer ever comes, can you explain why Stargate Universe is so much like Battlestar Galactica?

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 09:26 PM
reply to post by rnaa

Um, they need better writers? Don't know, never made it through an entire episode of either.

That is different than what is going on here. This is expanding a tiny element in a developed story, and sliding in completely different elements. It would be like Hermine showing up in a Star Wars movie carrying Harry Potter's baby.

Have you read the Mabigonion? Do you know what I am talking about? You might want to add a little weight to your reading material.

posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 09:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Holy Grail is just an allusion to the Philosopher's Stone of alchemy, which is NOT fictional. It's just not what you might think it is.

As far as legend surrounding it? Bah, who cares about the legend; I take it for what it is.

posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 01:25 AM
reply to post by prepared4truth

Ah, but the Mabigonion tells you how to perform magic far beyond the sorcerer's stone.

It tells you how to make a sorcerer's stone.

posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 01:02 PM
reply to post by poet1b

Good copy here..

The Mabinogion
by Lady Charlotte Guest

posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 01:09 PM

Originally posted by poet1b
Could Jesus have attended a school of the Druids?

Jesus had 'Hermetic' education... remember all those missing years in the Bible? In fact the majority of his life from age 12 to 33 (I think that is the right numbers... been a while)

But this thread has made me take out and polish my swords

posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 05:45 PM
reply to post by zorgon

Yes, Lady Charlotte Guest is the one who brought these amazing stories out into the light.

Do you mean this Hermetic Knowledge?

The Hermetic way of imparting sacred knowledge is very different from modern educational methods. In all temples in Egypt, this Hermetic, threefold method of instruction is embedded into the very structure of the buildings themselves, which were considered sacred places not public diploma mills. The first of these Hermetic stages is known as the PHILOSOPHICUM or knowing what it is. This first stage encourages the student to reflect on deeper truths, occult (or hidden) principles, and discovering the essence of what is. [/ex[

If Jesus had a Hermetic Education, then it makes sense he would go to Britain.

Here is another interesting part of the tale of Peredur son of Evrawg.

He is an innocent whose father and older brothers died in battle, raised in isolation away from all combat by his mother. After a chance encounter with a Knight, he goes to King Arthur's court, wherein a series of coincidents, he proves himself to be an invincible knight, all without any training.

He woos the Empress of Constaninople by winning her tournament, but this is after she appeared to him as an ordinary woman, and showed him how to defeat a terrible monster. As he woos her, a three black knights bring cups to the Empress, and then he defeats each knight, to win the cup.

new topics

top topics

<<   2  3  4 >>

log in