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Satan

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posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Akragon your are really ignorant, What is your motive im interested




posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by InnerstellarOne
reply to post by Akragon
 


Akragon your are really ignorant, What is your motive im interested


Please explain how im ignorant

I have no motive, im simply presenting a different possibility...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by InnerstellarOne
Lol this thread is fail.



you can debate satan and what he is who he is, Blah blah and go on, But the truth is jesus is coming, Satan is rising, And the end is near


Stop yapping on about ficitious tripe, Do something with your life, and stop living in conspiricy heaven. Its knowing the word of god that will set you free.


It's always a pleasure to meet individuals with such an inflated opinion of themselves, that they can cut through some thousand years of theological, religious, philosophical, experiental and recently sciencific/logical speculation, debate and research and just like that dish out 'truth and reality', on a 'I KNOW' basis.

Thanks for your wonderful and valuable addition, without which many of us would have been existentially lost.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I'm glad, that your thread was revived, even if it took a whippersnapper, passing on spoon-fed doctrine, to do it.

The subject in itself is fascinating, seen from most perspectives ranging from human-initiated social engineering through reward/punishment-religion, via non-human interference on planet earth colony to cosmogony/cosmology.

I would like to turn attention to the vague classifications on the 'god's opponent crowd. There's the talking snake, the Devil, Satan, Lucifer plus a group of minor demons/devils altogether making up a motley group, which contains entities not quite identical.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


The funny thing is we have little to no information about Angels and their jobs in the physical realm...

The information we do have has been given over time, but ignored by many if not most... It seems that people believe that once the bible was written God stopped talking, and so did the spirits/angels.

Can people be so nieve?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
I posted this in the wrong section replying to a thread which i didn't fully read...Again my appoligies... i finally found where it should have went so i'll copy and paste
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Why don't we try to step out of the "religious box" and look at this Satan thing from a different angle. Realize that the bible was written in an age where free thought was considered Heresy. A time where the writings of a few men litterally dominated the spiritual ideals and beliefs of the world.

Logic had no place in this time....Now consider the idea of the "fallen angel"... Gods favorite most beautiful angel decided to rebel against him because of pride. Pride is a human condition, and thinking that an angel would be driven by a human condition isn't logical. If angels exist they are beings that are far beyond human emotions or even the so called "sins" that plague us. The bible was writen by man, not by God. So the writings are also subject to human inturpretations. For instance the "Great Flood" was thought by many to be a world wide flood, but its known now that it was a regional flood. Or even the exodus where moses parted the sea...its known now that the area that he crossed could be litterally parted with the right wind. Now im not saying it wasn't an act of God but im saying its logical, it could actually happen.

Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.

Even with the example where he tried to tempt jesus in the wilderness, he was simply doing his job. The very idea that an angel would attempt to overthrow the one who created him is just rediculous. The fact is (imo) lucifer works with God to tempt humans to not follow their spiritual path. To believe in materialism, selfishness, greed and hatered, because without faith and knowledge of the spirit theres no progression. IF theres no progression in your spiritual development you'll be comming back for another round in the cycle of reincarnation because you haven't learned your lessons.

Satan isn't against God hes one of his greatest allies! He's definately not on our side, but he doesn't want us to fail! His job is to make it as hard as possible to learn our lessons in this life. To tempt us to turn from God, and even believe there is no God, but just like any other angel he loves us and wants us to pass our tests.

So again human inturpretation from hundreds of years ago has no logical basis. People lived in fear of God and under extreme pressure from the so called "religious authorities" back when the bible was written. Anyone who went against what the churches said was true was killed. So you didn't have a choice in what you believe, at that point anything the head of the church said had to be true regardless of how logical it might have been.

Personally i find it hilarious that anyone would even consider an angel trying to overthrow God. It makes no sense what so ever. IF he created all that exists, how could an angel try to challenge him.



I agreed with some of what you said. At least the fact that logic and reason was frowned upon back in the day. I also follow similar beliefs that you do. I don't necessarily believe in the Biblical "God" but I do think intelligent design played a role in our universe. To me it seems more crazy to believe in the Big Bang theory than to believe in a sort of higher power. Since nobody knows for sure, I'm going to believe in the latter, although I don't know exactly what the latter is.

That said, if the Biblical God were real, and Satan were real, I don't see how Satan tempting us to go down the wrong path and thus burn in hell for eternity is really being on God's side. If God's love for us, his creation, is infinite, he wouldn't have created hell and Satan for those of us that don't exactly believe all the mumbo jumbo that is the Bible.

...and yeah, if God created everything including Satan, it would not seem very logical for Satan to try and overthrow his creator.

Don't listen to any of the religious fanatics that tell you to believe everything the bible says. If we did that, we'd still be living in a time where "witch" burnings were acceptable, parents would kill their kids for misbehaving, anyone that told a white lie would have to cut out their tongue, etc. Pretty much, everybody would have to be taken outside and be stoned to death...except for the religious elite, who can molest kids and it's okay.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Michelangelo

Originally posted by Akragon
I posted this in the wrong section replying to a thread which i didn't fully read...Again my appoligies... i finally found where it should have went so i'll copy and paste
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Why don't we try to step out of the "religious box" and look at this Satan thing from a different angle. Realize that the bible was written in an age where free thought was considered Heresy. A time where the writings of a few men litterally dominated the spiritual ideals and beliefs of the world.

Logic had no place in this time....Now consider the idea of the "fallen angel"... Gods favorite most beautiful angel decided to rebel against him because of pride. Pride is a human condition, and thinking that an angel would be driven by a human condition isn't logical. If angels exist they are beings that are far beyond human emotions or even the so called "sins" that plague us. The bible was writen by man, not by God. So the writings are also subject to human inturpretations. For instance the "Great Flood" was thought by many to be a world wide flood, but its known now that it was a regional flood. Or even the exodus where moses parted the sea...its known now that the area that he crossed could be litterally parted with the right wind. Now im not saying it wasn't an act of God but im saying its logical, it could actually happen.

Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.

Even with the example where he tried to tempt jesus in the wilderness, he was simply doing his job. The very idea that an angel would attempt to overthrow the one who created him is just rediculous. The fact is (imo) lucifer works with God to tempt humans to not follow their spiritual path. To believe in materialism, selfishness, greed and hatered, because without faith and knowledge of the spirit theres no progression. IF theres no progression in your spiritual development you'll be comming back for another round in the cycle of reincarnation because you haven't learned your lessons.

Satan isn't against God hes one of his greatest allies! He's definately not on our side, but he doesn't want us to fail! His job is to make it as hard as possible to learn our lessons in this life. To tempt us to turn from God, and even believe there is no God, but just like any other angel he loves us and wants us to pass our tests.

So again human inturpretation from hundreds of years ago has no logical basis. People lived in fear of God and under extreme pressure from the so called "religious authorities" back when the bible was written. Anyone who went against what the churches said was true was killed. So you didn't have a choice in what you believe, at that point anything the head of the church said had to be true regardless of how logical it might have been.

Personally i find it hilarious that anyone would even consider an angel trying to overthrow God. It makes no sense what so ever. IF he created all that exists, how could an angel try to challenge him.



I agreed with some of what you said. At least the fact that logic and reason was frowned upon back in the day. I also follow similar beliefs that you do. I don't necessarily believe in the Biblical "God" but I do think intelligent design played a role in our universe. To me it seems more crazy to believe in the Big Bang theory than to believe in a sort of higher power. Since nobody knows for sure, I'm going to believe in the latter, although I don't know exactly what the latter is.

That said, if the Biblical God were real, and Satan were real, I don't see how Satan tempting us to go down the wrong path and thus burn in hell for eternity is really being on God's side. If God's love for us, his creation, is infinite, he wouldn't have created hell and Satan for those of us that don't exactly believe all the mumbo jumbo that is the Bible.

...and yeah, if God created everything including Satan, it would not seem very logical for Satan to try and overthrow his creator.

Don't listen to any of the religious fanatics that tell you to believe everything the bible says. If we did that, we'd still be living in a time where "witch" burnings were acceptable, parents would kill their kids for misbehaving, anyone that told a white lie would have to cut out their tongue, etc. Pretty much, everybody would have to be taken outside and be stoned to death...except for the religious elite, who can molest kids and it's okay.


Perhaps i can explain further....First as i've said this isn't my belief but im open to the possibility, again i was only presenting a different logical theory.

Secondly...


I don't see how Satan tempting us to go down the wrong path and thus burn in hell for eternity is really being on God's side.


If you consider life to be a learning experience, where we must incarnate many times to come to understanding of life and love....The way of God, you can see why i made that statement. Satan/lucifer is part of the learning process because he pushes us the other way, towards materialism and not spiritualism. He works for God tempting man to turn from God, as you can see when he "tempted" Jesus in the wilderness... The idea being those who are not fooled by the material world progress in their spiritual learning faster then those who accept the material world as "all there is"

And btw, Hell is just a fear tactic used by the church... There is no sin that will condem you to "burn in hell"... Sins affect your Karma but so does positive action, and love towards your fellow man.

Its all a balence, Ying & Yang


edit on 21-3-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by bogomil
 


The funny thing is we have little to no information about Angels and their jobs in the physical realm...

The information we do have has been given over time, but ignored by many if not most... It seems that people believe that once the bible was written God stopped talking, and so did the spirits/angels.

Can people be so nieve?


There are at least two optional perspectives from a (religion-related) non-believer position.

a/ The various texts on the subject (which isn't limited to christianity) can most safely be approached by textual analysis, where the intrinsic information in the text can be considered on its own terms (inner terms excluding an outer 'reality' *) or compared to other texts. From an objective reality-seeking position the text-content isn't more than fiction, until the text per se is considered a valid 'reality' source.

b/ Contemporary we have quite a lot of experiences, describing anomalies differing from mundane, rational, science/logic-explained standard experiences. Paranormal, 'magic', miraculous, trans-mundane etc. No real dialogue or common methodology exists to validate these anomaly experiences to everybody's satisfaction, but as in the theist/atheist confrontation no side can claim ultimate exclusivity for their way of finding answers.



So it's undecided IF there are any angels/spirits, and then, IF they have stopped talking.

This inconclusion at an advanced level doesn't give any justification for any doctrinal texts whatsoever though, so angels/not-angels can be debated completely independant of specified religion(s) etc.

So no-one will be confused: My own stance is that of metaphysics, with a strong inclusion of science/logic.

* Some people seem to be very interested in Spiderman's neurosis and his romantic life, which doesn't exactly make it 'real'.

As to naivity; this clinging to ideological extremes isn't exclusively a religious phenomenon. It's found everywhere.
edit on 21-3-2011 by bogomil because: clarification



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by Michelangelo
 


You wrote:

["I don't necessarily believe in the Biblical "God" but I do think intelligent design played a role in our universe. To me it seems more crazy to believe in the Big Bang theory than to believe in a sort of higher power. Since nobody knows for sure, I'm going to believe in the latter, although I don't know exactly what the latter is."]

There is a problem here. While the intention in the 'intelligent design' concept maybe has some legitimate basis, it has been adapted to a mainly christian-copyright'ed slogan, from which a lot of christian doctrines automatically follow in the bargain. What's called sneaking christianity in through the backdoor.

Besides the verbal formulation itself is horrible, as it's a theist argument, dressed up in scientific/logic terminology. Neither here nor there.

Quote: ["That said, if the Biblical God were real, and Satan were real, I don't see how Satan tempting us to go down the wrong path and thus burn in hell for eternity is really being on God's side."]

A specific 'Satan' (a title originally, not a name) first turns up described as a kind of 'agent provocateur' in the divine legalistic system. He is to smoke out dissenters. Something which in my opinion has a distinct flavour of totalitarian systems.

I have reason to believe, that this 'Satan' isn't identical with the talking snake. The chronology doesn't fit.



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 09:31 AM
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Satan was not even the 'bad guy' in the bible anyway.

Think about it. Who was ruthless, jealous, and wanted to rule over the humans with an iron hand?

Who wanted the humans to know good from evil, right from wrong and be intelligent? (think of the Garden of Eden story and why the Lord God got upset when the 'serpent=traitor' hipped Eve to knowledge)

Murder talley of the bible?

2,391,421+ - number of people in the bible, killed by God (not including flood victims)

10 - number of people in the bible, killed by Satan (as a bet in the story of Job)

Remember, the winner rights the history



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by ButterCookie
 


You wrote:

["......Who wanted the humans to know good from evil, right from wrong and be intelligent?"]

Unfortunately quite a few christians don't consider 'knowing good from evil' and being in possession of intelligence as virtues. Some christians even go so far as to use these as reference-points for THE ultimate evil, where a counter-point of alleged virtue is a zombification process, where you gradually is expected to give up your free will, consider yourself as an existential fiasco, just by being born, and then spend your life mourning and excusing this imagined shortcoming.

It takes some rather strong mental shields and filters to keep up such a mindset of helpless insufficiency, so generally communication is also an evil, as it pollutes the purity of the true faith. Only preaching or sermons are housebroken.

Hence the often extreme opposition to anything rational, logic and ofcourse satanic science, as this can challenge the circular absolutes of the misery-religion, which rests on completely self-contained and self-'proving' postulates.



edit on 22-3-2011 by bogomil because: spelling



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by ButterCookie
 



Murder talley of the bible?

2,391,421+ - number of people in the bible, killed by God (not including flood victims)

10 - number of people in the bible, killed by Satan (as a bet in the story of Job)

Remember, the winner rights the history


Do you really believe God or the "devil" killed any of these people, or was it man?

Man also writes history, and you've seen how messed up that was regardless of who won...




posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I've seen a commercial for a Chuck Norris movie, claiming something like "49 dead the first 20 minutes".

This actually only refers to the imaginary character in the movie (played by Chuck Norris), not to anything 'real'.

It's possible to make a textual analysis of the bible, without even THINKING about the bible as anything but a collection of fictious fables; in that case at best taking it as symbolic.

But even then this symbolic message will be branded by the confusion, inconsistency and brutality of the holy manual.


Disregarding who authored the manual, its symbolic impact on many people is a fact, and there's no denying, that it's been used as an excuse for extensive atrocities (just like Mein kampf, Das Kapital and Mao's little red).

SOME ideologies carry a pronounced message of violence, some not (like Jain or buddhism). A violent message, symbolic or not, can and should be denounced, especially in a situation where some folks believe the fiction to be real (and not just 'drama') and to be commandments of behaviour.



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

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Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.


What if the creator you refer to in within oneself? Could this ''opposer'' or ''adversary'' be a reference to mans ego?
What if the whole God/Satan thing is just an allegory for the internal conflict between good and evil that we all go through on the way to enlightenment? Peace



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by TattooedWarrior

Originally posted by Akragon

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Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.


What if the creator you refer to in within oneself? Could this ''opposer'' or ''adversary'' be a reference to mans ego?
What if the whole God/Satan thing is just an allegory for the internal conflict between good and evil that we all go through on the way to enlightenment? Peace


Absolutely my friend...i don't discount any possibilities that are logical.

I also feel Good and evil are very subjective, its hard to believe either exist...they're both human concepts.

But who knows




posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:12 PM
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Great thread and hope it revives. But yea that was my old point of view.
He was just doing his job period.

But I am still evolveing on my points of view on dualities.
I dont believe the true creater is of duality. I believe the below is though.
Which is where I believe us to be.

I do think are ultimate purpose is to return to the light, the above.
I see this universe and this reality as a filtering system to get all the
impurities out. We cant dwell with the true creator/father with this darkness inside
of us. So we are stuck here untill we become completely filled with light.

Atleast that is what I am starting to relize.
LOTZA LUV & Thanks for another great thread.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 



So it's undecided IF there are any angels/spirits, and then, IF they have stopped talking.


Tell me what you think of this my friend... How does it make you feel when you read this... Many people actually say it makes their chest hum... Technically speaking that would be your heart chakra...

On the other hand some just consider it to be nothing...


By Archangel Michael

Be greeted, dear friends on earth! The time has come to bring your preparation for the Age of Aquarius to a new level. As we can see, there are many among you who are feeling lost, who are feeling restless, and who fear the future. Indeed there are so many who believe that what they call “apocalypse” is near, although we keep reminding you that what is to come near the end of 2012 is not the end of the world, but rather a new beginning.

Yes, it is true that Mother Earth has begun with the early stages of labor for her rebirth, which is why you can see strange weather all over the planet. While some see this as part of cyclical weather changes, indeed this much more related to the global changes as a result of changes in the energy field of Earth.

Throughout this year and even more so in 2012 you will most likely see more extreme weather phenomenon, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes in areas that were thought to be without risk. In a way, Mother Earth is adjusting to the ongoing changes, and this will show more and more on the physical plane. However, there is no “end of the world” scenario coming, instead we are reaching the misinterpreted “end of times”.

What this really means is that Earth returns to the cosmic time-line, as many thousands of years ago Earth became separated from the cosmic time-line – indeed, as shocking as that may sound, all life on Earth was destroyed in a very distant past – but a higher intelligence decided to “undo” this destruction, although it meant that Earth was out of tune with the correct time-line of the cosmos.

This time-loop is coming to an end, which also explains why the Maya decided to draw their calendar only up to the end of that loop, as they foresaw this return to the correct cosmic time-line. They were much in tune with the spirit world and higher intelligence, which explains their high level of knowledge.

You may wonder what I am referring to when I say “higher intelligence”. Well, you are not the only intelligent beings in the universe, and there are beings on other planets that are much farther developed, who have decided quite a few times in the past to assist mankind, when the time and the conditions were right. However, due to their higher intelligence these extraterrestrial brothers and sisters prefer not to intervene unless absolutely necessary and to allow mankind its natural development as much as possible.

There is nothing to fear, either from these extraterrestrials or from the global changes – Earth is undergoing changes, and mankind as well, and you will also see many more changes concerning many of the topics that currently dominate the news media – more governments will fall, revolutions will continue all around the globe, as this feeling of restlessness and much-needed change manifests not only in the individual but also on a larger scale.

However, what is important is in which direction mankind will proceed in this most delicate and most important period of its history. In the end, this will show the true character of mankind, but what is important for each and every one of you who reads these words: What part are you playing in this? Are you sending out thoughts of fear or even anger? Or are you assisting in sending light, in projecting peace, in promoting harmony for society? Remember, you are part of mankind – at least for the duration of this lifetime! As such, you have a responsibility to BE that part to the fullest, and project what you feel is right, and work actively for creating a better society, a more human humanity – putting sense into the word, “human”.

Be greeted, and be blessed. Amen.


I know the person who "channeled" this... Not personally of course, similar to how i know you... just much longer...but his character is solid.

but again this is my perspective...

I don't know if this is from exactly who he says it was from, but i also can't say it wasn't...

Edit: Weird, i had problems posting this message in this particular thread...

edit on 23-8-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


With some reservations on my part concerning a couple of assumptions, the overall conclusions of the Michael channelling are rather sensible, and don't differ much from what a rational analysis would conclude.

As to 'chest humming' mentioned early in your post, it may surprise you to hear, that I e.g. am an experientee of 'holy ghost'irocity', albeit my experince originated from a secular (muslim) source. I.e. an egalitarian rather nominal muslim.

A faction of this basically secular 'movement' actually tried to press me into some formal theist allegations, which I categorically rejected; but it all functioned anyway, when I finally and reluctantly was 'initiated' and no 'gods' appeared in the couple of years I performed this mind-thingy.

A small anecdotal comment. When I first started on this practise, my head started 'humming', when my fridge turned on.

So I have no doubts about the pragmatic reality of 'hummnings' as such. My doubts erupt when somebody starts 'explaining' them, worst when inventing imaginary links to alleged 'gods'.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 



As to 'chest humming' mentioned early in your post, it may surprise you to hear, that I e.g. am an experientee of 'holy ghost'irocity', albeit my experince originated from a secular (muslim) source. I.e. an egalitarian rather nominal muslim


Im not really sure what "an experientee of 'holy ghost'irocity" means honestly...

Like i said it was refering to your heart chakra, theres no need for an organized "belief" to experience it. Just simple meditation...


A faction of this basically secular 'movement' actually tried to press me into some formal theist allegations, which I categorically rejected; but it all functioned anyway, when I finally and reluctantly was 'initiated' and no 'gods' appeared in the couple of years I performed this mind-thingy.


LOL... Not my intention at all...

Just another one of the things that i was talking about that is "proveable"... Similar to the one i PM'd you about, though we didn't go into much detail.


A small anecdotal comment. When I first started on this practise, my head started 'humming', when my fridge turned on.


That would be your crown chakra, sometimes when it starts buzzing it feels like you're waring a hat


I don't know what the fridge has to do with it, but of course you didn't go into detail about this "practice" you're speaking of...


So I have no doubts about the pragmatic reality of 'hummnings' as such. My doubts erupt when somebody starts 'explaining' them, worst when inventing imaginary links to alleged 'gods'


I won't try to explain something i don't understand... I know in reality your body is energy, and there are centers of energy within your body which you can focus on, and experience. Many believe "raising" these vibrational energies opens you up to the universe, and helps you understand many things which can include "an understanding" of scripture... Some also believe it can connect you with God... which also requires that individuals understanding of said "God"...

My personal belief on these matters is neither here nor there, but regardless....most of the people who believe in these things are peaceful loving and accepting to all beliefs good or bad.

Which i do agree with




posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


You wrote:

["Im not really sure what "an experientee of 'holy ghost'irocity" means honestly..."]

As examplified most vividly amongst pentacostals. You know flayling of arms, floor-rolling on occasion, mumblings, moanings and yellings. Though there are also more silent manifestations. My own consisted of slightly rocking on my heels for 30-45 minutes.

Quote: [" Like i said it was refering to your heart chakra, theres no need for an organized "belief" to experience it. Just simple meditation..."]

Meditation, yes....chakras, hmmm.

Quote: [" That would be your crown chakra, sometimes when it starts buzzing it feels like you're waring a hat "]

Technically speaking it was my third eye, which also was 'opened' somewhere around that time. But that still doesn't make me convinced of chakras as such.

Quote: ["Many believe "raising" these vibrational energies opens you up to the universe,"]

And Gurdjieff said, that this will make you bonkers, which is an observation I also made when living together with a bunch of hindu'ist 'vibe-raisers' a year or so.

Quote: ["Some also believe it can connect you with God... which also requires that individuals understanding of said "God"..."]

Which in the context of what fun you and I have together will consider a minor semantic problem.

But what happened to Satan here?



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