New York union guilty of murder (depraved indifference)

To reiterate, I said SPECIFICALLY that whoever went along with it.

I am sure there are great people in the union that did not go along with this. I am sure the vast majority did not go along with it.

But I am also sure this is standard procedure and I have witnessed slowdowns and sick callins and other techniques used by unions.

Not just your typical screw the employer or taxpayer this time, this time people died.

Well before you start throwing the wood on the fire did you happen to look at the rest of the NY Posts articles about the storm response??? Why were bike lanes cleared out on streets that were not plowed yet? Or how about the streets Bloomberg and co. live being plowed clean? Why were the buses running when the routes were snowed in? Read a little about how this fail needs blame everywhere.NYPost

reply to post by Throwback


Really? It doesn't?

Ever hear of Erin Brockovich?

I think they made a movie about that anecdotal evidence case. Yes, it was in a civil case, but just off the top of my head. I do not feel like researching the case history of possible cases like this. I am sure there are many.

reply to post by hangedman13


Yeah, I read about 3 articles there and 2 over at the Times.

One thing not brought up by any of the articles, only brought up in the comments.

Where were the chains for the buses, the emergency vehicles?

I am finding better questions and information from some of the comments than the articles.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


Hopefully Bloomberg can use this to break the cities contract with the union and hire independent contractors or private companies. New York is right behind California in the race to bankruptcy and union contracts are choking the economy to death.

And they have the chutzpah to try something like this? Crazy.

I'm a New Yorker and my street has been plowed, but is still a hazard to drive on.

Eric

I had to push my car for an hour on a street that was neatly plowed one foot from the ground, for the few hours I was there I did not see any plow trucks plowing, they were just driving around and this was two days after the last snow fell. I did not see any salt or sand trucks either. I don't know who is at fault nor do I know if unions are left or right and I really don't give a S, this was a criminal act and it put the lives of many in danger including mine because there was no way of emergency vehicles reaching the people in certain areas like were I was.
Whom ever gave the orders to do this and those who followed those orders should be held responsible for what ever deaths, injuries and accidents happened.

reply to post by AphexTwins

Here is how it works. I can teach you to operate a variety of types of heavy equipment in one week. Make you as good as anyone out there at the job. The job is that easy. I learned it as a youth before I got an education and a good job.Then if you have a relative in the Union, or you have enough money to bribe your way in, your set. Yes, you can bribe your way into a Union.

Starting pay is often $120,000 US plus Benefits equaling about another $30,000 a year. You don't even need to finish High School. The cost is covered by raising taxes which has all sorts of economy killing effects that harm everyone.

Now that you have your candy and you got it without actually doing anything for it, your hooked. You want more. What do you do? You take the next step and use extortion to force your wants down everyone's throats. You have Obama and the local governments in your hip pocket, because your Union Bosses bribe them with campaign donations. They only support Politicians who support the Socialist agenda, which favors Unions.

Then, eventually the money dries up. Taxes are so high that people either move their businesses or shut them down. The Government can no longer raise taxes from them so they go after the Middle Class. They do it a variety of ways. Many of them hidden in the prices you pay at the Retail level. They also use covert means like Tobacco and Alcohol taxes which of course at that point they are after the poor.

That brings us to the really scary tax. Property taxes. The higher they are, the richer you have to be to own a home. Property owners have no choice as if you don't pay, they take your property. That forces Landlords to raise rent on the poor. They have no choice, either raise the rent or go broke. Again the weight of maintaining your insane Union pay lands squarely on the head of the poor.

Taxes are so out of control in places like NY and California that the wealthy and the businesses are moving to other States or other Countries. They take the jobs with them. That creates more poor and reduces the taxes taken in by the local governments. How do they respond? They have already reached the point where people will pack their bags and move rather than pay more strangling taxes. They can't raise them any more, so how do they meet your incredible pay demands for your common laborer job? Only one thing they can do. Get rid of the dead weight and remove unneeded workers. They have to get lean and mean and can't use government Union jobs for welfare any more by having way more people than they need.

That is the point NY is at right now. The money and jobs are leaving, the taxes are out of control, it costs two or three times as much to live in NY as it does in other States because of the insane tax structure.

Now all these people who have been showered with candy for all these years, just don't understand that THERE IS NO MORE MONEY! The candy jar is completely empty. Do these people understand that? Hell no, they want their candy and they want it now! This is always the outcome.

Look inward at where you live. The students who are rioting for candy in the form of Welfare to pay for their University educations. Does not matter the tuition there is already incredibly cheap. Does not matter there is no more money to give them. Does not matter getting what they want will help destroy the whole countries economy. They want their candy and they want it now by God!

Of course people who are on the candy receiving side of the coin, pretend to not know how destructive their use of extortion through Unions is. Some Union people I've met actually are that dumb though. Most I know in Unions were the High School Dropouts I grew up with, or even worse they work for the government. A couple I know brag about how they are getting over on people openly. They don't even care about their own childrens futures, only how much candy they get right now.

Thanks for the additional comments folks. Great breakdown Blaine.

I have only dealt lightly with unions, I have dealt with government inspectors and other bureaucrats though. Talk about not being able to get rid of the incompetent. Had one inspector that was so bad, I dreaded him ever showing up. I expected him to be able to catch things I may have missed, twice on one project where I got there after the first 10 slabs had already poured, I found about 6 problems that should have been caught on the very first buildings.

I was finishing another project and one of my bosses was only spending a couple hours on the job and missed them. That is what the inspectors are for. To make sure things are being done properly. I fixed everyone I could that would not have cost an arm and a leg and changed the specs on the rest of the slabs. It was a step in the concrete that was 3.5" which is below the minimum. Oh well, dealing with the incompetent government is always a blast.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


So, if I don't throw salt on the sidewalk in front of my house and someone slips and breaks their neck, I should be charged with some variant of murder? I have to say that it's ironic that a far-right wingnut would be advocating the enforcement of this kind of extreme overreaching. However, extreme overreaching for the purpose of punishing a political opponent is spot on for neocons. This is the kind of logic that justified the leaking of a CIA agent's identity, endangering her life, as a political punishment for her husband's criticism.

reply to post by andrewh7


Nice hyperbole, typical I guess. Attack the messenger and not the message, include a completely off the wall comparison and be completely wrong to boot.

You are batting 1.000

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


bah, now I get it ignore please

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by Cablespider

 

Railing? I guess you do not like me discussing this.

Please point out a component of the thread where I have not been forthright in my descriptions or my logic.

I am using an article from the New York Post as my PROOF.

Are you saying it is not true? Maybe YOU should get on the ball and provide some defensive proof instead of whining that I am smearing unions.

Sounds kind of projective to me. Hmmm?

edit to add-since you added that little component about it being just a few in the union, maybe you could point out the part of the thread where I accused the ENTIRE union.

edit on 30-12-2010 by saltheart foamfollower because: (no reason given)

Where did you accuse the ENTIRE union? Start by reading your own thread title. You became judge, jury and executioner on an unsubstantiated claim.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Well, you should go to the thread on making Drunk Driving legal and attempt your argument.

If someone provides a case of known danger and then someone is harmed, it is a crime. Right?

This is where the Depraved Indifference component comes into effect. If someone creates a situation, where danger is obvious, then whatever is caused can be construed to mean that the act that happened, DEATH, the crime most closely resembled, can be applied. So what happened, people died by the actions of those that instigated it, those that called for the slowdown and those that implemented it.

Let me repost that definition from here-definitions.uslegal.com...

Depraved Indifference Law & Legal Definition

To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.

Now, this does not apply to you, but anyone that was on the Drunk and Driving thread that argued against allowing Drinking and Driving, you cannot argue against this premise. If you do, you would be have cognitive dissonant beliefs.

Later.

edit on 30-12-2010 by saltheart foamfollower because: change quote to exterior

Well since you re-state the US law definiton, I'll restate that legal definitions are meaningless junk, because the meaning of words (definitions) are based on how words are actually used, not on some arbitrary declaration of US legislation. For someone who's profile refers to natural law I'm surprised you would disagree. You keep calling this a crime and referring to the law for proof.

Its totally true that according to US law extreme negligence can be considered "a crime" but in all fairness it isn't a crime... its simply something angry people label people with in order so they can get bloody revenge when they doing something they don't like instead of creating restitution, crime prevention, and/or rehabilitation.

If a criminal is someone who accidentally causes damage on accident then being a criminal is no big deal at all. I don't understand people who wish to water down the word "criminal" to mean mere idiots. If you want to use the word "criminal" to mean "one who accidentally hurts a guy" then fine, but nobody I know could ever use "criminal" in that sense. If someone is a particularly accident-prone idiot, you call them an idiot. Not a criminal. Someone who goes around doing things with *malice intent* and carries out their schemes of harm is a criminal. Ignorance may not be an excuse, but I'll never call someone a criminal on ignorance alone. Only malice intent is fair grounds to call someone a criminal.

So yes, it is totally true that *according to the US court system* such people may be considered "criminals" by law, but its made up nonsense designed to wish/decree a crime into existence in order to achieve a bloody revenge on a technicality when in fact there is no malice intent that by all common sense is required in order for there to be a crime.

You like that the law incorrectly labels sufficiently clumsy people as criminals because you like them in jail... but only because you have hard feelings against them, not because you are trying to think of the best way to compensate victims or prevent crime. If you were thinking of that then you wouldn't think of jail-time first, because its statistical rate of reform and prevention is absolutely terrible. It works for revenge quite a lot but revenge is useless and anybody who wants that even more than compensation is generally thinking with a blackened heart. There are better and worse ways to prevent accidents, and jail-time is *not* one of the better ways.

reply to post by civilchallenger


Wow, I think you took it personally.

So, the next time the government unions in say the cops or the fire departments or any other of the components of government, do not want to perform their duties and people die because of it. No big deal right?

I guess these people in government are allowed to do anything they want without any repercussion?

I can intentionally set up a situation where someone dies, when I know it can cause harm, you are telling me that is NOT a crime.

I believe in Natural law like what is in my avatar and I find this component of existing law to fit.

There is a VICTIM.

There is an ACTION that directly relates to the caused effect.

Because they did not know a death would occur, does not mean anything. If they know that what they are doing could cause a situation where something severe could happen, that covers the INTENT.

Got any problem with that?

everyone knows that the sanitation union in new york is controlled by the italian mafia.

what do you expect when your leaders go by the name "the chin" and johnny "baseball bats" .

Yes let's charge a bunch of workers who get treated like slave mules with murder for going on strike.

The lunatic thoughts of americans have been leaping out to me recently. People openly calling for death and assassination on live tv. My god you people have lost it. These people can chose not to work that is their perogative; plain and simple. Stop whining to the system to fix your every problem that is what is making a mess of things in the first place. First you invite the system to nanny you then cause problems for people like me who want nothing of that.

I find this thread highly insulting that the people I have to share this planet with want such dumb things. If I worked there damn right I'd have a problem with you nazi's telling me that I have no choice but to work.

Originally posted by stealthc
Yes let's charge a bunch of workers who get treated like slave mules with murder for going on strike.

What?!?

Union workers in New York City are treated like slave mules? Do you have any experience with unions in New York? I'm confident that there are MILLIONS of people in this country that would be ecstatic to switch jobs with them. I know that I would.

Talk about hyperbole!

Eric

There's no way this case will go anywhere, because the prosecution has no argument. Let me explain why:

We know for a fact, that the sanitation worker's inaction (regardless of why) indirectly lead to the death of two people. However, we do not know for a fact, that had the sanitation worker's done their job 100% correctly, that those two people still wouldn't have died. It's likely they might not have, but impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. For this reason, any legal case against them will ultimately fail.

This is nothing new. In 1963, my grandfather was murdered by union/mob members with a backhoe to be made an example of. My uncles company was one of the main contractors on the IBM plant in East Fishkill, NY. Needless to say, my uncle was adamantly against the union, namely because he treated his employee's very well and really didn't need to be told how to run his business, he also didn't want to deal with all the bureaucratic nonsense that goes along with it. In retaliation, my grandfather, John Ceconi was taken out in a relatively gruesome manner which in turn caused my uncle to drop the IBM contract, out of fear for other employees and family members. While this may be a bit more direct than the situation presented in this post, it comes as no surprise. If you really want to see something outrageous in regard to NYC DoT/Sanitation Dept, check this vid out on youtube.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by stealthc


You're crazy, "slave mules"??
Have you ever been to NY? Have you ever driven on the GWB or the Deegan? I'll break down a typical union workers day for you...
7am - 8am arrive at job site, consume approximately 3 cups of coffee
8am - 9am stand around, make sure helmet is secured and BS about upcoming day
9am - 10am take a break, more coffee
10am - 11am clean tools/equipment from day before
11am - 1pm lunch break
1pm - 2pm whistle at women passing by, drink more coffee, secure helmet again
2pm - 3pm clean up coffee cups, high-five co-workers, call it a day