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New York union guilty of murder (depraved indifference)

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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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Just caught this headline, Sanitation Department's slow snow clean-up was a budget protest

So the sanitation workers union, which purposefully caused problems in the blizzard to protest budget cuts, caused the direct deaths of at least two people. I think this is a prosecutable offense.

From here-Depraved Indifference-US legal definition


To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.

In one case, People v Register, 60 NY2d 273, 469 NYS2d 599 (1983),while exploring the meaning of "depraved indifference recklessness" the Court of Appeals ruled that intoxication is not a defense or excuse to "depraved mind murder," although it may be to intentional murder. Its analysis started with distinguishing reckless manslaughter from the "depraved indifference recklessness" necessary for murder:

"to bring defendant’s conduct within the murder statute, the People were required to establish also that defendant’s act was imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death to others and that it was committed under circumstances which evidenced a wanton indifference to human life or a depravity of mind. . . . . The crime differs from intentional murder in that it results not from a specific, conscious intent to cause death, but from an indifference to or disregard of the risks attending defendant’s conduct." 60 NY2d at 274.


Everyone, especially workers in snow removal know, that not clearing the roads during a blizzard will cause emergency vehicles to not be able to use the roads. Also, everyone knows that blizzards are very dangerous.

By their WILLFUL actions, this union and EVERY member that went along with it, is guilty of MURDER.



There are two deaths directly attributable to them not getting help from 911 emergency vehicles. One was a woman who's baby died, when they could not get to her.

Currently writing an email to the New York prosecutor's office asking for action. I will post email when I am done with it.
edit on 30-12-2010 by saltheart foamfollower because: to fix some gramma


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edit on 30/12/2010 by Mirthful Me because: EX Tags.




posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:50 AM
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To add from the beginning link-www.nypost.com...




The snitches "didn't want to be identified because they were afraid of retaliation," Halloran said. "They were told [by supervisors] to take off routes [and] not do the plowing of some of the major arteries in a timely manner. They were told to make the mayor pay for the layoffs, the reductions in rank for the supervisors, shrinking the rolls of the rank-and-file."

New York's Strongest used a variety of tactics to drag out the plowing process -- and pad overtime checks -- which included keeping plows slightly higher than the roadways and skipping over streets along their routes, the sources said.


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edit on 30/12/2010 by Mirthful Me because: EX Tags.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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I say hang the weathermen also for predicting intense snowfall. Well at least you didn't somehow tie this to Climate Change.


Despite my utter fascination of the absurd, even I find this a streeeeetch. But thanks for playin'.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by kinda kurious
Despite my utter fascination of the absurd, even I find this a streeeeetch. But thanks for playin'.


I don’t find it a stretch at all.

Some of my family members have had to deal with union stupidity before.
Sick days.
Walk outs.
Slowed work.
Deliberate sabotage to slow things down.
Deliberately producing a bad product to give the company a bad name unless they met the union request.

Considering that one of them worked in a diesel engine plant (real big engines), and the other in question worked at an elevator factory, then you start to comprehend that it could be “life threatening” for the people using the products.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:43 AM
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And the moral of the story is...

Don't depend on the government to save you. Be prepared.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Yeah, great argument you have there. Seems the governor is calling for an investigation into this.

But I guess if you were the defense attorney, I would bet the unions would fire you the first time you opened your mouth with the "it's a stretch" defense.

By the way, thanks for playing.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by NthOther
And the moral of the story is...

Don't depend on the government to save you. Be prepared.


amen



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:12 AM
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I was just thinking of the same thing this morning, as I read the news. In fact, what came to mind is that this idea -- charging the NYC Sanitation Worker's Union with murder -- would have been a very compelling plot for the Law & Order TV show (if it were still being produced in NYC).

Having lived in NYC for five years, I can attest to the often atrocious, selfish, and uncaring attitude of what same call "New York's Strongest," the sanitation workers. "New York's Dirtiest" is a more apt description of late.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by NthOther
Don't depend on the government to save you. Be prepared.


The problem here is that the NYC response to snow clean-up, and clean-up in general has normally been very good.

A significant blizzard snarled the city a couple months after my new job there in 2000. Clean-up was impressive and efficient, despite the 16 inches of snow and wind.

The speed with which the Sanitation Department cleans up the massive mess after the NYC Marathon is impressive to watch each year (we used to live on the route).

This event, a work-action during clean-up of a life-threatening historic snow storm, is not a failure of government, but the apparent selfish act of a union unable to come to terms with the reality of contemporary budget problems -- not to mention a complete lack of empathy for the citizens affected by their inaction.
edit on 30-12-2010 by SkepticOverlord because: (typo)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower

There are two deaths directly attributable to them not getting help from 911 emergency vehicles. One was a woman who's baby died, when they could not get to her.


This article states different as to the reason for this infants death.. nothing at all to do with the storm..


Among the calls was a Brooklyn woman who called 911 several times on Monday to report she was in labor. She delivered a baby that was unconscious and later pronounced dead. Initially, dispatchers assigned the call a low priority because the expectant mother hadn't reported that either she or the baby were in distress, and her delivery was not believed to be imminent. Dispatchers called back several times to check in on the woman, and when a call came in that the newborn was unconscious, the priority was upgraded and EMS workers responded 12 minutes later.


source
edit on 12/30/2010 by tribewilder because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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Among the calls was a Brooklyn woman who called 911 several times on Monday to report she was in labor. She delivered a baby that was unconscious and later pronounced dead. Initially, dispatchers assigned the call a low priority because the expectant mother hadn't reported that either she or the baby were in distress, and her delivery was not believed to be imminent. Dispatchers called back several times to check in on the woman, and when a call came in that the newborn was unconscious, the priority was upgraded and EMS workers responded 12 minutes later.


When seconds count, they are only minutes away………

Yes that really helps their side of the story.


The whole reason they were assigning priorities is because all the rescue vehicles were stuck in the dang snow!!!!!!! (bangs head)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:30 AM
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How do you go about charging a union with murder?

You can't charge all the union members, I believe they have the right to strike, do they not? They aren't slaves for goodness sake and sometimes help just doesn't arrive. Kind of a rule of life.

I think cities should have emergency workers available in the event of something like this. They should have been prepared, after all, they've been dealing with unions for a loooooooong time.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny

The whole reason they were assigning priorities is because all the rescue vehicles were stuck in the dang snow!!!!!!! (bangs head)


Or perhaps it was also due to this fact:

New York City operators fielded 49,478 calls to 911 on Monday, the day after the storm. That total was the sixth highest in any day since the city began keeping statistics. There were 38,000 calls on Tuesday. Some of the calls came from the same location, but it's not clear how many.


Again, perhaps because of the snow, but I really can't believe that there were almost 50 thousand emergencies..


same source



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
Seems the governor is calling for an investigation into this.


Great, I say let's get to the bottom of this. Hopefully they'll also determine why the mayor didn't declare a state of emergency in which case the vehicles / garbologists wouldn't have been allowed on the roads. You know, snowplows, police and emergency vehicles only.

Anyone found culpable of inaction causing delays should be held accountable. My biggest beef is your sensationalist headline. Perhaps a few Union members who exacerbated the situation, but the Union itself? C'mon. As SO stated, might have made a nice fictionalized TV plot.

Oh I get it, you don't like unions OR government.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by NthOther
 


Well, that is obvious. As they say, when the government is needed, the union is on a slowdown.


reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


I think that is where I may have learned about the Depraved Indifference murder plot. I think they may have done it with a corporate head that caused deaths due to using cost accounting to defer fixing a problem in a product. Or it could be a mish mash of several shows. Do not recall. Posted the description to Depraved Indifference several times on the article. A couple people are reposting it.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Why is it that people, especially you, attempt to defend one wrong by pointing at another one?

Why? Yes, Bloomberg was an idiot for not declaring an emergency, he actually told people to go out.

What does THAT have to do with the actions the union did?

Please tell me, this is like looking into a completely different type of mindset. If one person commits murder, does that excuse someone else for doing it?

Explain your logic.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Tharsis
 


Well, you could charge those that called for the slowdown. There actions directly created the situation where people died.

Of course the blizzard was an underlying situation, but the blizzard is inanimate, it does not make a choice. The union leaders that called for this did.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by kinda kurious

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
Seems the governor is calling for an investigation into this.


Great, I say let's get to the bottom of this. Hopefully they'll also determine why the mayor didn't declare a state of emergency in which case the vehicles / garbologists wouldn't have been allowed on the roads. You know, snowplows, police and emergency vehicles only.

Anyone found culpable of inaction causing delays should be held accountable. My biggest beef is your sensationalist headline. Perhaps a few Union members who exacerbated the situation, but the Union itself? C'mon. As SO stated, might have made a nice fictionalized TV plot.

Oh I get it, you don't like unions OR government.


Um………Sorry to inform you but……..
The people that run the garbage trucks (garbologists) are the people that run the snow plows.
They are all under the department of sanitation.

They is why you will see garbage trucks with snow plows on them in some of the news footage.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by saltheart foamfollower
 


While I agree union workers should be held responsible for the deaths, I disagree it was murder, and also disagree about who was responsible.

The union workers responsible for the deaths were only the actual workers who were in charge of clearing the street on which the accidents actually happened, and then also the specific people in the chain of command who instructed that individual to work slowly on purpose.

Regardless of what the law states, murder is killing someone on purpose. And the union workers did not kill anybody on purpose. Therefore, they did not murder anybody. You can't count on the law to give an accurate definition of anything. If the law defined murder as throwing a popsicle stick on the sidewalk (ie what everyone else calls littering) would you really argue that the people who do that are murderers? Definitions are all about how people use them and nobody has ever said "my family member was murdered" to mean their family member spun out in the snow on the street and hit a light pole. What they'd say is that they were killed in an auto accident.

In other words, a crime requires motive and the union workers didn't have motive to kill the people who were killed. It was surely unintentional. Had the union workers known that someone would die for sure if they worked slowly and they did exactly that, you'd have a case. But they did not know that and therefore you don't have a case. None the less, they are responsible and therefore they should have to compensate people for losses in NON-CRIMINAL courts.

US criminal courts do virtually nothing to deter crime and I suppose that trend will continue as long as people focus on *revenge* rather than focusing on future *prevention*. The OP didn't bother mentioning how this could be prevented but rather was clearly out for revenge.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by civilchallenger
 


Well, you should go to the thread on making Drunk Driving legal and attempt your argument.

If someone provides a case of known danger and then someone is harmed, it is a crime. Right?

This is where the Depraved Indifference component comes into effect. If someone creates a situation, where danger is obvious, then whatever is caused can be construed to mean that the act that happened, DEATH, the crime most closely resembled, can be applied. So what happened, people died by the actions of those that instigated it, those that called for the slowdown and those that implemented it.

Let me repost that definition from here-definitions.uslegal.com...




Depraved Indifference Law & Legal Definition

To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.


Now, this does not apply to you, but anyone that was on the Drunk and Driving thread that argued against allowing Drinking and Driving, you cannot argue against this premise. If you do, you would be have cognitive dissonant beliefs.

Later.
edit on 30-12-2010 by saltheart foamfollower because: change quote to exterior




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