Zionist Lobby's New Orders for Obama

Originally posted by Hazmat77
reply to post by christina-66

 

You judge an entire nation and millions of people by the idiotic comments of ONE person? And yet you expect us to believe that you are intelligent. Surely you jest.

What one person are you referring to? And at what point am I referring to an entire nation and millions of people? I have mentioned one friend who was/is a member of palestinians and jews for peace. Have I mentioned my old boss - very nice fella - 10 years in Israel two of which he undertook his national service for the country? Or how about my sons' father who spent 2 years out there as a journalist in the late 70's?

I am not condemning a whole people - I am critisizing a government's policies and our governments' acceptance of them. The Israeli's have set up illegal settlements that are NOT on their land. They have to go back to the agreed borders.

NB. I have added none of their comments - YET.

reply to post by Hazmat77

House Resolutions have no legal effect, and this merely restated the position the USA has taken in the past.

The anger and hatred expressed on this thread is insane. You objectors either refuse to admit the truth or are ignornant of it.

We saw from the recent document dump by Wikileaks that the Arab nations do not fear Israel ... first and foremost they fear the Islamic crazies in Iran.

You are correct, house resolutions like the one under discussion are non-binding. You are correct also that it reflects long-standing US policy. By the same logic then, the State Dept cables reflect already prejudiced views and should be regarded in this light. Which would explain why State Dept employees wishing to keep their jobs try to stick to policy as they understand it.

I can't speak for all the posters on this thread, but it seems to me that anger and hatred aren't exactly the emotions expressed, but rather, shock, disgust, and even nausea.

Israel and the USA agreed to the TWO State solution when it was first proposed - it was the Arabs who said NO, by the force of bullets they intended to take the whole enchilada.

Jews have lived in the territory now known as Israel for Centuries - long before Islam and Christianity were invented.

Most of you jew haters fail to understand history, and your own biblical history ....

The U.N. agreed to a two-state solution before there was a Jewish State of Israel, only a territory of Palestine, inhabited primarily by Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs, Jews of long standing, Jews who had returned from diaspora, Samaritans who had remained even during the so-called Babylonian Captivity, Druze, and other identifiable groups.

The Zionists unilaterally declared independence apart from the agreed upon two-state framework. The U.S. endorsed the independence outside of the framework. I think the general attitude of those posting is that it is totally unfair and unjust to hold one party to a framework which has already been violated by the other party. It is appalling to many posters that the U.S. is the enabler of this injustice.

I think most posters would disagree with being labeled "Jew hater." Not all of us take biblical history as our history.

And welcome to ATS, home of spirited, thoughtful, and respectful discussion.
I see that you have joined the forum just now to specifically join this thread. You honor me. Thank you. Please review the Terms and Conditions when you get a chance.

reply to post by dizzylizzy

Another anti semetic thread. What about the attrocities in ie Darfur?

I think you should use the edit function to get this line out of my quote. The Mods would see this as merely quoting me without adding anything, and delete it. Others may see it as an actual quote from me. That wouldn't be good either, from my point of view.

I haven't looked very deep into Darfur. I'm not quite able to untangle the complexities.

www.washingtonpost.com...
In Break With U.N., Bush Calls Sudan Killings Genocide

By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 2, 2005
. . .
The United States, under the 1948 U.N. convention on genocide, is committed to preventing such killings and punishing the killers if it deems a genocide is taking place.

It is clear though, that US response to what they have deemed genocide is woefully inadequate. That should be discussed in another thread though.

reply to post by Hazmat77


Liberals loved Helen Thomas before she expressed an opinion Jewish owners did not like. They called her "dean of the white house press" and fawned over her. I never liked her much; she's a biased political activist pretending to be a reporter in my view. She insults all the "correct" targets and she was loved by liberals for that.

All that was fine until she said something politically incorrect about Jews in Israel and then it was the total condemnation and the instant axe for her. The response to her was over the top and that is because she targeted Israel and Jews had the power to harm her. They did the same to Sanchez for saying the meida is run by Jews. It IS run by Jews. But don't say it out loud! The reaction to her and Sanchez proved the point that there is a huge imbalance of power for one tiny ethnic group running rough shod over all Americans.

I think people have to start understanding, and researching Zionism. Zionism, is mainly an Ideology, supported by radical Jews, and Christians (research Christian Zionism).

A Jew, in what we perceive them to be today, in not necessarily a Zionist; all Zionists are not Jews. An Israeli citizen isn't automatically a Zionist, or even a Jew (I know some christian, and muslim people who are citizens of the State of Israel - some of them even Palestinian).

Zionism has always been rampant in Europe, and North America. As an Ideology, I would place them closer to the Military-Industrial-Complexes, of Western powers, then to anything having to do with the every day Jewish person, we see on our streets. In fact, most Jewish people I know, in Long Island, and NYC, are liberal, support an independent Palestinian State, and are fearlessly anti-Zionist. Of course, most Zionists, and Orthodox Jews, wouldn't recognize them as being JEWS (they would call them Khazars, or worst). As a good starting point, for your research:
www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

It's just a starting point, don't take everything at face-value: Research!

reply to post by CerBeRus666
Thank you. It isn't only among liberal and Reform Jews that anti-Zionism is represented, also among the Orthodox. Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism
There also exists an expression of Zionism which views "the promised land" as an ideological aspiration rather than a present concrete reality to be fought over. Annual Pilgrimage as opposed to permanent settlement would be seen as totally appropriate.

Update and correction

As many resolutions change number in process so this one has a final title:

H. Res. 1765:Supporting a negotiated solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and condemning unilateral measures to declare or recognize a Palestinian state, and for other purposes.
www.govtrack.us...

The resolution now takes effect. [Last Updated: Dec 16, 2010 12:03PM]

Last Action: Dec 15, 2010: On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

Votes: Dec 15, 2010: This resolution passed in the House of Representatives by voice vote. A record of each representative’s position was not kept.

Palestinian Statehood on the Agenda
by Muriel Mirak-Weissbach
. . .
It is important to stress that the resolution did not come in response to the Palestinian Authority’s having made any such unilateral declaration of independence. However, discussion of such an initiative has been spreading since Israel rejected the “incentives” proposed by the Obama government for it to halt settlements: In addition to $3 billion more in military aid, the US government had reportedly offered Israel a mafia-style protection option, whereby Washington would shoot down any attempt in the United Nations to condemn or sanction Israel – or to act on a unilateral declaration of independence by the Palestinian Authority. The mere suggestion that any country should require such protection by a superpower is tantamount to a declaration of moral bankruptcy by that country, but that is not the point. The point is that Israel flatly rejected it, thus signaling its commitment to continue taking over Palestinian land in fulfillment of the radical Zionist vision of a Greater Israel. And “to hell with the rest of the world,” Netanyahu might have added.

reply to post by pthena

Jewish Assimilation
In ancient times it was customary for conquered people to recognize the gods of their conquerors as more powerful than their own gods, and to at least add them to the gods they worshiped. In some of the conquering empires the Emperor was considered a god and Emperor Worship was expected of all of his subjects. This was a problem for the monotheistic Jews of the conquered Land of Israel. Their religion forbade the worship of other gods. In addition to a challenge to maintaining their monotheistic religion, the people were challenged to retain their language and customs while part of a large Empire that conducted its business in a different language.

The Roman Empire was massive and long lived. Starting with the Republic and becoming the Empire after some five hundred years. Control was not maintained by force and might alone, but by a toleration of local beliefs and traditions. This is evidence here where, even after Rome's state religion, Christianity. was introduced as a new means of control many Celtic burials had attributes of both Christianity and of the older local indigenous traditions. Even today, a Celtic cross takes pride of place on top of most Church of Scotland buildings.

I've watched a few clips of AIPAC meetings in a grand hall. There is the overwhelming aura of "We are the movers and shakers of the world." This profoundly effects the psychological well-being of the participants.

This makes me think of Bernard Madoff , who instilled a sense of being 'in with the in crowd'. That somehow, being invited to a meeting with him you had finally made it and had become a 'mover and shaker'. He was obviously a master at this type of psychological game playing.

As you've already stated prior to 1948 Jews, Muslims and Christians all lived in Palestine in comparative harmony....after centuries of different conflicts. The Muslims and the Jews even fought together against the European Crusaders

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187. In that year, the Muslim ruler Saladin conquered Jerusalem.

The population stats at the beginning of the 20th century are of interest;

The Zionists established farm communities in Palestine at Petah Tikva, Zichron Jacob, Rishon Letzion and elsewhere. Later they established the new city of Tel Aviv, north of Jaffa. At the same time, Palestine's Arab population grew rapidly. By 1914, the total population of Palestine stood at about 700,000. About 615,000 were Arabs, and 85,000 to 100,000 were Jews.

SOURCE


From the source above it can be seen that Israel/Palestine has been a rich agricultural centre and geographically/strategically important land mass for millennia.

I take your point on stoking of 'ego and pride' but this seems to be facilitated by money, media, psychological tactics, mis-info....(which I do believe should be questioned). Talking of falsely inflated ego's Tony Blair had his eldest son baptised at the spot where John the Baptist is reputed to have baptised Jesus. After he left office he converted to Catholicism...and sought the Pope's advice on the matter rather than his local priest. When asked why he didn't declare his religious convictions when in office he said 'well people would think you’re a bit mad, wouldn't they'. I don't think Catholics are 'mad' but I think he IS catholic or no.

Has the US been hijacked by Zionist lobbyists and powerbrokers? Is their knowledge of their own religious background so misguided that they think they're collecting Godly brownie points by blindly permitting the State of Israel to break resolution after resolution?

Israel is fast becoming an apartheid state (and the recent strikes on Lebanon seems to have confirmed to it that it can act anyway it desires unimpeded)....not just in regard to Palestinian separation. They've had to import workers from the Philippines etc. to undertake the work that the Palestinians used to do. They have banned all immigrant workers from having children 'to preserve the Jewish character of the State.'

The Guardian - article

reply to post by christina-66


"I was playing backgammon with a lass the other day on the net, who declared herself to be from Israel. I was winning the match - she proceeded to call me a 'moslem[sic] ****. a German*****, and finally, a homosexual****. (I'm an indigenous Scottish divorcee with 2 children) In retaliation I called her a bigot, a racist, and a sexist. She then claimed I was an anti-Semite and threatened to report me. I pointed out that Arabs were also a Semitic people. I cannot abide having that term thrown at me as an insult or when I am criticising a country's political strategy....and all this anti-Semitism nonsense has been hidden behind for long enough. In regard to it being used against anyone who dares criticize what is being inflicted on the Palestinians it is repelling. "

The above paragraph from your post specifically deals with what ONE Person, as I stated, said to you. While it seemed logical to infer from her comments that you were condemning all Jews, but on review I may have jumped to a wrong conclusion. I am NOT a religious believer, albeit of Hebrew descent and I find unjustified criticisms to be beyond the pale.

I will point out that the Palestinians have been USED by some of the Arab nations as pawns for decades, in the Arab attempt to eliminate the Jews. It has long been known that except for the Iranian muslims - who are mostly Persian, not Arabic, the rest of the Arab nations never cared much for the Palestinians and kept their Palestinian refugees in ghettos rather than integrate them into Arab society.

I will also point out to you and the other posters here, many of whom seem to condemn Israel's use of force, that the creation of the State of Israel was approved by the United Nations. The creation of the United States, Canada and Mexico were NEVER approved by any world body. Nor was the creation of any other Central or South American nation - all of which were basically inhabited lands that were taken over by emigrants from Europe through the use of force. Same is obviously true of Europe, Asia and Australia.

The Palestinians have basically wasted 6 decades ... had they spent that time working with Israel, through economic partnership, they could have built a dynamic, free society and become the jewel of the Arab world; instead they wallowed in anger and irrational behavior - in the name of Allah.

reply to post by sara123123


I won't get into the media ownership discussion, other than to say most US media companies are publicly owned, with boards of directors made up of people from all religions, including no doubt many non-believers. And millions of shareholders.

In the USA there is no proscription against anyone of any religious belief from owning or developing a media company. The Internet has made it easier than ever to become a publisher. If you give the people what they want to read, listen to or view, you'll be successful.

One thing the Democrats and Republicans agree on in this country is its support for Israel, despite the evil, hypocrisy, and oppression of the Israeli apartheid state.

Why didn't they add a law that would also support and defend the genocide of Palestinians?

I'm sure the Zionists would really like this one, but it is in fact unnecessary as the Israeli police and military can already kill large numbers of innocent Palestinians at will whenever they please.

reply to post by CerBeRus666


"Zionism has always been rampant in Europe, and North America." I don't know what this means. Zionism was a concept conceived by Theodore Herzl in the 1880's as his response to the centuries of mistreatment that plagued the Jews in coiuntries all over the world, based on misguided Christian, then Muslim purveyors of hate. Herzl logically believed that the Jews would be safer if they lived in one place, and since it all began in what is now Israel, it certainly made sense to once again make that the homeland.

"Herzl worked hard to find a territory for the Jews. Sinai and Cyprus were two territories under consideration. Then in 1903, the British offered Herzl the area called Uganda. At this time pogroms and oppression in Russia reached a new high. Herzl felt that taking Uganda would be justified. He submitted the Uganda plan to the sixth Zionist Congress. The proposal aroused strong opposition and resentment. The eastern European Jews regarded it as a betrayment to the dream of settling in the land of Israel. So strong and hostile was the opposition, it caused Herzl to write a written commitment to abandon the Uganda plan" www.jewishmag.com...

I fail to see how Zionism justified the engendering of so much hatred by non-Arabs - i.e., people who would not be affected by the movement of jews back to Israel.

reply to post by pthena


Seems to me that the Palestinians have been treated much fairer by Israel than the USA treated the Cheyenne, Sioux, Apache and most of the other native tribes that lived in the territories now known as the USofA...don't you?

Same goes for the indiginous Mexicans who were unfairly treated by the invading hordes of Spaniards for decades,..is that not also true?

Before condemning Zionists and Israel, descendents of non-jewish Europeans need to look to their own history.

Originally posted by Hazmat77
reply to post by christina-66

 

"I was playing backgammon with a lass the other day on the net, who declared herself to be from Israel. I was winning the match - she proceeded to call me a 'moslem[sic] ****. a German*****, and finally, a homosexual****. (I'm an indigenous Scottish divorcee with 2 children) In retaliation I called her a bigot, a racist, and a sexist. She then claimed I was an anti-Semite and threatened to report me. I pointed out that Arabs were also a Semitic people. I cannot abide having that term thrown at me as an insult or when I am criticising a country's political strategy....and all this anti-Semitism nonsense has been hidden behind for long enough. In regard to it being used against anyone who dares criticize what is being inflicted on the Palestinians it is repelling. "

The above paragraph from your post specifically deals with what ONE Person, as I stated, said to you. While it seemed logical to infer from her comments that you were condemning all Jews, but on review I may have jumped to a wrong conclusion. I am NOT a religious believer, albeit of Hebrew descent and I find unjustified criticisms to be beyond the pale.

.

The Palestinians have basically wasted 6 decades ... had they spent that time working with Israel, through economic partnership, they could have built a dynamic, free society and become the jewel of the Arab world; instead they wallowed in anger and irrational behavior - in the name of Allah.

That comment about that lass was being used as an example to make a point about an attitude, which although not universal, is prevalent. I could use many other examples to make the same point - of a much more violent nature. With regard to the 6 decades 'wasted by the Palestinians’ - there's still the small matter of occupied territories that kind of stymie any meaningful negotiation.

What I, personally, have been trying to understand, is why our governments' continually support the State of Israel - no matter what....and that is where the criticism is being made.

I began by looking into the reasons for the persecution of the Jews through history. You are plain wrong when you claim that it was due to 'misguided Christian and Muslim purveyors of hate.' 'It's the money stupid' (to coin a phrase - excuse the pun). It was a means of eradicating debt....and that meant expulsion of the Jews, who were the only religious sect at the time permitted to practice usury. Please see one of my earlier posts.

In the USA there is no proscription against anyone of any religious belief from owning or developing a media company. The Internet has made it easier than ever to become a publisher. If you give the people what they want to read, listen to or view, you'll be successful.

You are correct - but Jews moved into the industry in its infancy. (Again please see one of my earlier posts). They moved into these industries because they were barred from owning any other business. There were no laws preventing Jews owning these new technologies. Simply by virtue of the fact that they were in at the beginning - they do dominate the media and entertainment industries today. That is a powerful industry to control.

reply to post by christina-66
Thank you for that link to mideastweb. That does seem to be a site worth re-visiting from time to time.

History, and different perceptions of history, are perhaps the most important factors in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Accounts of history, interpreting history in different ways, are used to justify claims and to negate claims, to vilify the enemy and to glorify "our own" side. Dozens of accounts have been written. Most of the accounts on the Web are intended to convince rather than to inform.

This very brief account is intended as a balanced overview and introduction to Palestinian and Israeli history, and the history of the conflict. It is unlikely that anyone has written or will write an "objective" and definitive summary that would be accepted by everyone, but it is hoped that this document will provide a fair introduction.
www.mideastweb.org...

On Bernard Madoff: I knew a guy once who was pulling the same kind of scam, taking in money from investors and producing made up monthly reports on how much their money was growing. The psychological part is important; the returns must look so good that "any one would be a fool to pull their money out!" By the time he got busted, he'd taken in about a million dollars. He did it to pay for complications resulting from his wife's elective surgery not covered under insurance,

Madoff's case goes to show that when your,"investors" are highly placed political and regulatory individuals, you can keep the con going for a long time. There's a certain inertia that keeps it going, harmonic resonance so to speak. The "great returns" were an illusion, they didn't exist. The sense of power, importance, and impunity were very real as far as human emotions go.

Has the US been hijacked by Zionist lobbyists and powerbrokers? Is their knowledge of their own religious background so misguided that they think they're collecting Godly brownie points by blindly permitting the State of Israel to break resolution after resolution?

Israel is fast becoming an apartheid state (and the recent strikes on Lebanon seems to have confirmed to it that it can act anyway it desires unimpeded)....

The U.S. is still ranked as a highly religious country. Christian fundamentalism is very active in politics since the 1980s. Many people can see that literalistic views of old texts is a dead end. But unfortunately, there is enough fundamentalism alive and well to make a critical mass. One of the greatest reasons for the popularity of Christian Zionism is weakness of Christian faith; they really need some concrete thing to point to as evidence that they are right. They chose the Jews as there proof. "Look, God chose the Jews and they're still here, so that proves that God created the world in seven literal days. Look! There's an independent Jewish state of Israel. That proves that I am saved and will be raptured." "Hey! If we build 10 Commandment monuments in our courthouses we can prove to god that we are a Christian nation deserving of god's blessing."

Any rational person would say that the logic is flawed. In fairy tales a boy can say, "the emperor has no clothes" and people release themselves from delusion. In real life someone will jump up and exclaim, "That's the philosophers working for the devil, trying to take your faith away, don't listen, here's a verse that says that would happen." The fundamentalists have a verse for every contingency.

Speaking of Hollywood, I like movies, sometimes that's what makes more impact on people. I saw a movie recently called Agora, which center's around the philosopher Hypatia around AD 391 in Alexandria when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire. Some of her former students had become big shots in Christianity. Just prior to her being ordered killed by one of her former students she said, "Synesius, you don't question what you believe, or cannot. I must." And just because they were able to kill her does not prove that she was wrong and they were right.

AIPAC does exercise great power based upon delusion. Self delusion feeding upon and reinforcing itself. The results on people's lives are very real however. They choose the delusion over the truth, for that is where they draw their power. The power to act with absolute impunity.

I'm getting all preachy, I know. I actually used to preach sermons.

reply to post by Hazmat77

Seems to me that the Palestinians have been treated much fairer by Israel than the USA treated the Cheyenne, Sioux, Apache and most of the other native tribes that lived in the territories now known as the USofA...don't you?

Same goes for the indiginous Mexicans who were unfairly treated by the invading hordes of Spaniards for decades,..is that not also true?

Before condemning Zionists and Israel, descendents of non-jewish Europeans need to look to their own history.

As far as I can tell, yes, the Palestinians are treated much fairer than the USA has treated the Inhabitants of the Americas.

I am made up of a mix of those Barbarian tribes that dwelt on and migrated around lands now known as Europe, which became part of the Roman empire.

We as humans are limited in life to the times in which we live. My tribes (I am mongrel) were subjected and forced by Romans. There is no Roman alive today that I can blame, or seek reparations from. After integration into "civilized" European society, my fathers went to North America, and did there what had been done to them in the past, and more brutally. There was an ideology called "Manifest Destiny", bolstering and justifying actions against those not considered as blessed by god.

Manifest Destiny was based upon a proto-zionism of Christian invention. Manifest Destiny and modern Zionism have links not logical or rationally defensible, yet real all the same. I can't yet go into the past and correct these things. I am limited to the now.

Now, there is the flowering of ideology and historical bad thinking taking place in Palestine. It's too late for me to get on a soap box and say "allowing Custer to go into Montana Territory is a bad idea, and unjust also". It isn't too late for me to soap-box the Israel-Palestine issue, so that's what I do.

All of us humans today are the victims of and the perpetrators of every atrocity ever committed. Somewhere, sometime we must stop and take stock of what we are doing. That's my position. Reparations are so inadequate, unable to erase the crimes of the past. How much better if the crimes weren't done in the first place! There's an old saying that I just made up: "Better than saying sorry is to not do it in the first place."

reply to post by Hazmat77


Herzl didnt realize that bringing all the Jews togethor might actually make it easy for some enemy of the Jews to kill all or most of them next time ther is another Hitler type.

Well that was a real conversation stopper! Way out of my thinking box. There are about 12 - 18m Jewish people in the world 5.5m in Israel - half of the rest are in the States.

I concur with Pthena's point that we can only deal 'with the now'. All peoples have been subjugated at different times in their history - while most peoples of the world have also been subjugators.

Two wrongs do not make a right - from any perspective. The fact that the Arab nations have been using the Palestinian's cannot be denied - it does not mean the continued theft of their land, abuses of their rights and liberties should be allowed to be continued....nor does past treatment of indigenous peoples in all parts of the globe by our predecessors justify the continuation of barbarity to our fellow man, woman and child.

We're supposed to be progressing as a species.