Why do Americans hate Socialism/Communism?

reply to post by sonjah1

The U.S. Census Bureau reported that a record 50.7 million Americans—16.7% of the population—were uninsured in 2009.[1] More money per person is spent on health care in the USA than in any other nation in the world,[2][3] and a greater percentage of total income in the nation is spent on health care in the USA than in any United Nations member state except for East Timor.[3] Despite the fact that not all people in America are insured, the USA has the third highest public healthcare expenditure per capita, because of the high cost of medical care and utilization today.[4][5] A 2001 study in five states found that medical debt contributed to 46.2% of all personal bankruptcies and in 2007, 62.1% of filers for bankruptcies claimed high medical expenses.[6] Since then, health costs and the numbers of uninsured and underinsured have increased.[7] Active debate about health care reform in the United States concerns questions of a right to health care, access, fairness, efficiency, cost, choice, value, and quality. Some have argued that the system does not deliver equivalent value for the money spent. The USA pays twice as much yet lags behind other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy, though the relation between these statistics to the system itself is debated. Currently, the USA has a higher infant mortality rate than most of the world's industrialized nations.[nb 1][8] The United States life expectancy lags 42nd in the world, after some other industrialized nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th).[9][10][11] Life expectancy in the USA is ranked 50th in the world after the European Union (40th).[12][13] The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[14][15] The Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States last in the quality of health care among similar countries,[16] and notes U.S. care costs the most.[17]

Healthcare in the USA

reply to post by Rob37n


Because it's what pop-culture has taught them. Americans have been fed a black and white world view fromt he Cold War where 'commies' were the bad guy and 'cowboys' were the good guys.

I call it Red Dawn syndrome.

Many Americans have no problem with socialism at all. They benefit from it every day, actually, in many many forms. Social Security, Medicare/medicaid, the FDA, public schools, vaccination programs... te list goes on and on of the many things that people benefit from while complaining about 'socialism'.

And in my own experience, many of those who rail against 'socialism' often have no idea how to even define it. They use it interchangeably with Communism and Fascism, as well as 'nazi'.

reply to post by estar


I love the sources you use....wiki and WHO.

Neutral and non-agenda pushing, indeed.

reply to post by sonjah1


Oh sorry I forgot ATS was all conspiracy orientated and you can’t trust anything these days, only to suit your own agenda? It’s easy just look up countries GDP they spend on healthcare and compare it to the USA, Wikipedia is a fine place to get information from they provide all the sources at the bottom of the page. Grow up.



Have a nice picture if that suit's you better.

The reason Americans disdain Socialism, Communism, and Communitarianism, is because we have had an Oligarchy trying to shove it down our throats for over a hundred years. We happen to like the idea of our Constitutional Republic. And we really wish all the other nations would mind their own business, and quit trying to tell us how to live our lives. We don't want to be like you. But that doesn't mean we don't like you. And the poster that said Americans were selfish and didn't care about anyone but ourselves, doesn't have any idea how much money and time we have given to the rest of the world. Willingly in most cases.

We know we have problems. We know we have a corrupt system. We know about the brainwashing schemes of our media and governing bodies. Many Americans may not know how to articulate it, but they know things are not anywhere near right in this country. And we very frequently do not approve of what our now Corporate Government does.

To the OP: I know you won't actually do this, but I'm going to recommend it anyway. And to anyone else who hasn't done it. Go study the meaning and philosophy behind the dialectic. Specifically, the Hegelian Dialectic. I don't mean go to Wiki either. I mean do some real research on it, and understand it, and it's implications in today's world. Then go back and reread all that propaganda about socialism, etc. with that new understanding. You might be surprised at the difference that new knowledge makes.

To Bozzchem, Hawkiye, Slayer69, Nenothtu, and I'm sure I missed a few. I'm glad there are still folks like you out there. I salute you.

reply to post by estar


With all due respect, this just demonstrates economic aspects, not quality.

I'm very interested in quality sources because a family member living overseas died (we believe they could have been saved in the US), and I really would love to know where the top 30 countries are.

reply to post by JonoEnglish

Your political system is already influenced and run by Capitalists.

No No No!!! It is not we do not have Capitalism and haven't for nearly A hundred years. What part of that do you not understand?

Public ownership of organisations has it's benefits to a society. Sadly your view is that this can never work alongside capitalism.

Did you read my last post. I specifically gave the conditions under which socialism can work alongside capitalism, but then again you don't even understand what capitalism is. Also public ownership has never benefited society it always ends badly because it steals from some to give to others. You have only to look around you to see the results. We are on the verge of complete global meltdown. Iceland and Greece are just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not really understanding where you are coming from on this one.

Why am I not surprised... And yes I wish there was a "sigh" Icon!

reply to post by Wotan

So in your opinion Hawkiye, what ism are European and Scandinavian countries?

They are all socialist democracies of varying degree just like what the USA has morphed into.

reply to post by Rob37n


Because Americans are attached to constituitional freedom - individual freedom and all the systems and institutions that arose culturally from that body of ideology and law. Socialism and communism are American freedom's opposite. So is corporatism/fascism. The elite are defeating the constituion at the moment and enjoying the corruption of too much power. Americans will fix that for them. Sooner than later, I hope.

www.youtube.com...

Need more?

There are many, many reasons why I would like to stay away from communism/socialism. I assure you they are thought out, non knee-jerk responses. I used to think that some form of socialism was a good idea, then I started reading accounts of it. I'm sure you could have a non-totalitarian form of socialism work for a while. I just like to do things by myself.

Call me hard-headed, stubborn, or strong willed; they'll all be compliments to me. I could/should be on food stamps. I'm not.
I could rely on other forms of welfare, I don't. It would be nice and easy to have the Government pay for my health insurance, I'd rather them not though.
See, I was raised with the belief that nothing is free and that with every favor a return may be asked of you. If I have taxpayers/gov paying for my expenses then when will that debt be called?

I could go on for a while here but my hands are hurting from a long day of work.

Damn that capitalist system for making me work for my money instead of the government simply giving it to me! Because that's the way it works right?

Originally posted by Rob37n
What exactly is wrong with universal health care?

Well it is depending from whose point of view.

Originally posted by Rob37n
Surely the aim of major industrialized nations should be to ensure that all it's citizens are healthy, educated, and there is a safety net for when things go wrong for people.

No.
The situation is changed.
And for the moment no one needs those people. And if no one needs them, why should someone take care about their health?
Concerning the education – it was never the priority.
The priority is the mass of knowledge and not the education itself for masses of people.

Originally posted by Rob37n
I don't understand from where the vehemence of the American argument stems. I am not saying all Americans, but it does seem to be the prevailing opinion from the European perspective.

To understand it you should stop thinking from point of view that explained in ordinary schools, universities, tv or newspapers.
Look at all that surrounding you (including people) as a resource mass. So by looking on it as a resource mass you will see that there is no such a way as free education or health-care for all – why you should spend energy on something that will never bring energy back?
There is only resource mass and this resource mass should work for you and should be used in appropriate way.

This is the way of thinking that leading to existing structure in society.

(I am not speaking about if it is good/bad, correct/incorrect, human/not human ect... - I am speaking about the way it is working for the moment)

The history of communism expansion

Originally posted by BigTimeCheater
reply to post by estar

 

"universal" healthcare is unconstitutional.

k thanks bye.

edit on 2-12-2010 by BigTimeCheater because: (no reason given)

So you'd be happy for your local police force to be ran by a private Company?

You may want to review this link about how a privatised Child detention centre paid bungs to the towns local judge in order for him to send mre kids into detention for minor offences.

www.guardian.co.uk...

That is what happens when you privatise key services for social welfare that shoud never be about making a profit.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by JonoEnglish

 

Your political system is already influenced and run by Capitalists.

No No No!!! It is not we do not have Capitalism and haven't for nearly A hundred years. What part of that do you not understand?

Public ownership of organisations has it's benefits to a society. Sadly your view is that this can never work alongside capitalism.

Did you read my last post. I specifically gave the conditions under which socialism can work alongside capitalism, but then again you don't even understand what capitalism is. Also public ownership has never benefited society it always ends badly because it steals from some to give to others. You have only to look around you to see the results. We are on the verge of complete global meltdown. Iceland and Greece are just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not really understanding where you are coming from on this one.

Why am I not surprised... And yes I wish there was a "sigh" Icon!

reply to post by Wotan

 

So in your opinion Hawkiye, what ism are European and Scandinavian countries?

They are all socialist democracies of varying degree just like what the USA has morphed into.

No No No, Big sigh, didn['t you read my post? sigh,, massive sigh.

Annoying isn't it.

Can't you add to a debate without coming across as up your own ars*




You are looking at one particular precise definition of Capitalism.

If you are wnting true Capitalism you'd need to tear up any law books and even your constitution, as that is still interference outside of pure supply and demand.

That’s easy to answer; speaking in broad terms Americans have never liked being told what to do; i.e. the revolutionary and civil wars. We generally don’t believe we are our brother’s keeper either. So telling us we have to support someone else doesn’t sit well with us. We believe in self determination, whether you want to push the envelope and reach for the sky or sit home on the couch and watch TV is fine with us as long as you can support yourself doing it. Granted, personally I think in a nation as prosperous as ours we should have some form of basic health care and jobs/skill training for those individuals who can’t afford it or who for whatever reason find themselves down on their luck. After all as the ancient Chinese proverb says; give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

reply to post by Rob37n

Why do Americans have such a great hatred of Socialism and Communism? Where did it spring from and when did it arise? I don't mean the insanity of communism in Russia/China/North Korea etc., but the more liberal approach taken by the UK, Sweden, and a host of other countries

Most Americans and just people world wide have no clue what socialism or communism is, in fact they don't know what capitalism is either. These 3 isms are not new and they are the face put on now a days on the 3 most predominant of human natures, preservation, ideology, and greed, and even though the majority of Americans for some reason equate progress with capitalism, they are wrong, on the progress as a whole in the continuant'y of the world as a whole or in the future of there system of memetic hive belief's be it defined as any ism they follow. But they are in a state of rejection of the past progression continued in itself by regressive absolution of the self in the mass of humanity and as a result the primary picture that they see in there reality is there definition of there ism that they constitute as being the truth of the whole, when in fact it's at most a part of the whole, if even that. So there for the past does not equate with the present or the future. Hmm basically before ww2 america was in the great depression, and not a great place to be, when ww2 got started, as design, all components of the war machine ie the people were dependents in the city's, hence the depression. And as we know war at times more then ofter can be of great profit, if your on the wining side, after all factories and all the other machinations need to be build and spent, in great numbers. And off course the propaganda machines were going strong on all sides, and as we know from hindsight what was on the tv or were told or put in writing in the history books was the truth, as they saw it, or wanted you to see it, but mostly it was a way out of the depression, it lead to lots of jobs. Skip some time later, and of-course they would believe what they were told, and even overdue it, and some even think that if we go to war it would be like last time, but they forget that only depends if, you are on the winning side. Anyways socialism, communism, capitalism, are just that....all failures 2 of the past and one of the soon to be past, remove there ism, and they come out to be as what they originally were, social, commune, and capital or preservation, ideology,and greed. The 3 things needed to run any system were there is a mass of people, the ism denotes ism.

"-ism \-ism\ [F. -isme, or L. -ismus, Gr. ?.]
A suffix indicating an act, a process, the result of an act or a process, a state; also, a characteristic (as a theory, doctrine, idiom, etc.); as, baptism, galvanism, organism, hypnotism, socialism, sensualism, Anglicism. [1913 Webster]
Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"

"31 Moby Thesaurus words for "ism": Weltanschauung, adherents, articles of religion, catechism, church, class, communion, confession, credenda, credo, creed, cult, cultism, denomination, disciples, doctrinal statement, faith, followers, formulated belief, gospel, ideology, mystique, order, persuasion, political faith, political philosophy, religion, school, sect, system of belief, world view
Source: Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0"

"Ism \Ism\, n. [See ism, above.]
A doctrine or theory; especially, a wild or visionary theory. --E. Everett. [1913 Webster]

The world grew light-headed, and forth came a spawn of isms which no man can number. --S. G. Goodrich. Ismaelian"

An ismaelian, a religion, a path, a way, like all ways and paths, a hive mind for the purpose of order of the masses and lets not forget, a tool of control for the ptb....So do you want to die for it, who thinks there ism is the true ism? if you think so well then let the fireworks fly, the show will be.... interesting. But it's been done before, many times before.

Why is Liberal such a dirty word in America?

People need drama, liberal and all that is the newest drama on the tele, its only been on for 50 years or so I'm guessing. And according to this group called the Conservatives these liberals are not cool, and are all hippies. Depends on who you ask I guess. Who know's if they talk enough they might become the new ism that is cool, and in style.

What exactly is wrong with universal health care?

America is not rich enough to afford universal health care, or even country health care, so I guess just health care should be enough, I believe they are arguing about the insurance companies and mandatory fees thing more then the actual health care, only one way to find out for sure, wait till they all get sick and can't afford it, then lets see what they complain about. Besides when you say universal does that include the whole universe, or is it a another exaggeration. But if aliens come for health care to this planet, how much would you pay them to try this health care and hospital thing out?

Surely the aim of major industrialized nations should be to ensure that all it's citizens are healthy, educated, and there is a safety net for when things go wrong for people.

An interesting theory.

I don't understand from where the vehemence of the American argument stems. I am not saying all Americans, but it does seem to be the prevailing opinion from the European perspective.

Majority of the vehemence stems from the habit of following the asshole in front of you, or my favorite the asshole on the TV, some from books, and some from theory and ideology's or even opinions not of there own.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish

So you'd be happy for your local police force to be ran by a private Company?

You seem to be confused with the whole state vs federal thing.

Federal involvement in state police is unconstitutional.

States are free to have their own police force, which they fund with state taxes.

reply to post by johnny2127


Hmmm...

I agree that capitalism is the best form of government, btu the amount of corruption that we now have definitely proves that at the end of the day, the government doesn't actually answer to the people. They've been doing things their own way or the way the money wants them to for a long time now. As it is now, we ARE slaves to the big corporations. You don't get paid according to how hard you work or how much of a product or service you provide. You get paid however much the man thinks you are worth.

Capitalism has it's big flaws too. It may be the best out there, but it definitely has its weak points, one of which is the exploitation of the poor (and no, im not referring to the lazy who do nothing and live off of welfare).

reply to post by Mykahel


Capitalism is not a form of government, it is an economic system.

As for exploitation of the poor...the poor have the freedom to improve their situation. Making everything equal is not a function of government in an allegedly free country.

I've not read everything here, and I readily admit there are many here who know much more than I do about how different forms of economy/government work. But I think most of you are missing the key point to all this.

NO government system will be perfect so long as:
1) People care more about their own greed than they do the well-being of their neighbor.
2) People are lazy and expect/demand that their needs be met by others.

People are imperfect and therefor our governments will be imperfect, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to make them as good as they COULD be.

Capitalism allows for (but does not inherently cause) the rich to oppress the poor.
Socialism/Communism allows for (but does not inherently cause) the lazy to take advantage of the hard-working.

What then is the solution? People can be wicked and corrupt and often times will be. Somebody will always be taking advantage of another. I'm asking here, because I don't see a solution other than an ideal society where each person works for what they earn and cares more for their neighbor than themselves.

reply to post by killallbullies


Thank you for the well thought and written argument to my point. To be honest i agree with you in that the MAJORITY of cultures on earth value the well being of the group over the individual; to be honest i do as well because like a machine we all benefit each other by doing our part. That is truly where I agree and understand your point with regards to human labor being the only thing of value. Being an economist of western thought (which I was taught) does lead me to be more of a Monitarian than Keynsian, the latter of which is closer to your neo-classical average economist. While i agree with you regarding socialism/communism, I strongly disagree on your view of capitalism. The entire structure of captialism relies on the demand for finite resources. Were resources limitless then capitalism could not exist. This applies to human labor as well, and the only reason human labor is 'considered' overlooked is not because it is, rather it has been broken up into various other resources (i.e services, production, etc.). However, ALL of these resources are based upon one completely un-alterable variable; time. Time is the most valuable commodity in any market or economic structure. In captialism human labor is valued as time vs. production, or how much can one person produce during a given time period. Communism does not account for this, as all 'time' (human labor) is considered equal from worker to worker; the bakers time is as valuable as the doctors time. In Capitalism the market takes account for the previous time a doctor may have put in to becoming a doctor, verses when a baker learned how to bake bread. This is at the very heart of capitalism, the bakers time is not worth the same as the doctors time, given the service provided when correlated to the initial investment. So while you would never pay $100 dollars for a loaf of bread (would have to be incredable bread ), you would likely happily pay $5 for a doctors appointment. However this is not worth the doctors time, so he will lose while the baker is making huge profit. Capitalism is much like gardening, you reap the fruits of your labor.

As far as imperialism goes, please do not confuse this as being anglo\western. More imperialist states have existed in Asia and Africa throughout history than Europe or any other continent. The only reason imperialism is associated with western though is the once dominance of the global British empire and the existing dominance (while waning) of the United States empire. Now please do not misunderstand that statement, I do not condone the behaviour of th US internationally and we are suffering as a result, much as Britian did in the past. But to keep it short the reason imperialism seems to work is that it continues to manage the status quo between the constant influx of resources(supply) with the constant growth of demand (people). This is achieved by conquest, which is why I say it is completely lacking in ethical/moral structure. But as you said, social darwinism (I really like that description).

One thing I can say with the utmost certainty is that once we as a species are able to achieve limitless resources we will be able to create a new system of social interaction that will be somewhere between communism and capitalism, that will benefit the group as a whole while also satisfying the needs of the individual.

But again thank you for your response, I always like looking from different persepectives and hearing others opinions.