Why do Americans hate Socialism/Communism?

Originally posted by BigFrigginAl
See...you do not even practice what you preach...here I am, in need (of vital info) (how to insert a quote), where is my handout??? (instructions on how to insert said quote) LOL

Actually I do. You didn't request it and I didn't assume you needed help and force it on you. heh

But they do, maybe not the same opportunities, but opportunities nonetheless, they just have to seek them out, and want them.

Some can seek farther than others. Wanting something bad enough doesn't make it a reality.

But it did...they worked to produce those goods and services, resulting in a paycheck...if I, and everyone else did not buy, then there would be no job, hence no paycheck. Of course someone profits...someone profits off my labor, do I begrudge that, no...if I did, I could look into starting my own chemical production facility and steal my existing customers.

In theory, maybe. But if you have no choice but to purchase that product and the workers are not paid fairly for their production (which they aren't) than you have the problem we see in America today.

Why...I can only speak for me, because I would feel a sense of shame...if I can go to work and earn the amount given, that would be my choice. The problem, IMO, is that the system creates a recipient class...have another kid, get a bit more each month, continue...it's a horrible cycle.

I agree, but I don't think I would be able to commit myself to misery if I could just get payed the equivalent to do what I want. That may be the problem but what would you suggest as the solution?

This job pays car insurance, gas, activities, etc...I had a paper route at 13, job at 16 through HS...My hope is that it teaches him value, work ethic, etc...yes he lives with us, no on rent, but he will learn to understand real life.

So there you go. It isn't gainful employment. Some people wouldn't be able to take that job and still meet their families needs let alone their own, what are they to do? It is not accurate to make the statement, "jobs are out there." if it isn't work that actually pays enough for anyone to support themselves and their families.

Communism is the ideal form of governing and social structure, except for one fatal flaw that collapses the whole thing; balance.
You see the universal balance of things cannot allow one side to gain more ground than the other permanently. Even if we were able to achieve a perfect society, there would exist an equally imperfect society as well. Nature itself enforces this balance and it is part of the human condition. Whether it be greed, power, pride, you name it, people or incapable of being equal to each other. While I'm sure most of us BELIEVE with are equal to others, such as the way we interact and becuase of our moral/ethical bases, but trust me when I say you would never concede to being labelled as being the same as anyone else. I am not the same as you, though I may view you as my equal, we are not the same. That is why such a social structure cannot work. Capitalism also does not work because of its own fatal flaw; resources. Simply put, the human variable continues to rise, while the earths resources remain finite. Therefore Demand will always eventually outweigh supply, which will lead to those being able to obtain those precious resources and those who cannot. From this standpoint imperialism seems like the only truly efficient form of social structure, but is completely lacking any ethical/moral restriction. So really any way you slice the social $hit pie, it is still going to taste like $hit.

In short, we as a species suck at being social.

Originally posted by bozzchem

I will never draw first blood but will respond should mine be drawn.

Fail.
It is easier to resist in the beginning.

reply to post by Mikemp44


Great post hehe

salute/sir / mam

Originally posted by NadaCambia
Because Americans don't care about those less off. The majority white middle class of America are happy for the rest of the world to starve .......

The reason America didnt go European style socialist after WWII is because of the large 9% minority population at the time.

Pity the fools now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by badnickname

 

You're going to sit there and tell me that Yugoslavia is in the piss poor state it is in because of Western Capitalism and Democratic system and ignore the very real ancient fragmentation that took place that has been boiling under the surface for centuries? I'm sorry but Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia and Serbia are all your basket of worms. If it was such a wonderful place then why the hell did it fly apart and disintegrate in chaos?

Yeah ok. Blame all your ancient ethnic inbred hatred and the result thereof on the spread of Capitalism. That plays well for those who have an agenda but doesn't wash with many.

edit on 2-12-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

It disintegrated in chaos because europe didnt want Bosnia to become a sovereign nation it could have been. They feared an islamic state in the heart of europe, so they helped fuel the conflict.
Of course, that is not published in the newspapers, but then again, truth is never is, is it?

Another reason why it broke apart in a bloody war is that a nationalist government was elected in my country, and it got all the help it needed to wage a war for 5 years to gain its "independance". During that proces, our governments have become slaves to the european nations. The purpose of the war was to divide and conquer. If yugoslavia had not been molested by wars, it would not have bent over and greased its ass up for euro-american penetration. Not to say the russians didnt have their fingers in it. You had France and England helping Serbian government, and Germany helping Croatian government.
Isn't that a familiar recipee?

Regardles, the war itself is one thing. It was not caused by communism, or by socialism. It was caused by individuals with high appetites getting their grip on power, and had a nice push from nationalistic propaganda.

What I was saying, we had about 45 years of prosperity in socialism, and then 20 years of economic decline and ruin in democracy/capitalism. How you get to conclude that socialism is the cause of the war is beyond me. The furthest I can go (to help us get to a mutual agreement) is to say it was the suppresion of nationalistic thought that helped it explode later.

Edit: forgot the important thing:
The economic ruin of post-war yugoslavia lays not in the wars waged there, not by a long chance. It lays in the corrupt capitalism that was imposed on us, forcing (and paying off) our governments to propose that everything should be privatised. In the proces of "privatising" we have lost all the national wealth we had. That is the single biggest reason. And if we, as you americans like to say, follow the money, we can conclude that a small group of people connected to the government has made enormous profits, and that certain foreign countries now own almost everything that used to belong to our people. You do the math.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


You said:

Actually I do. You didn't request it and I didn't assume you needed help and force it on you. heh

Lol...so be it...could ya help a fellow out?

You:

In theory, maybe. But if you have no choice but to purchase that product and the workers are not paid fairly for their production (which they aren't) than you have the problem we see in America today.

But the chinese factory worker making pennies a day is fair? A person may not like their wage, but it is up to them to change that, they have that ability here...it may take work, effort, may not be easy, but it is possible.

You:

I agree, but I don't think I would be able to commit myself to misery if I could just get payed the equivalent to do what I want. That may be the problem but what would you suggest as the solution?

Unfortunately, I have no grand solution, but yes, I think that is part of the problem...but do not see a way to change that thought process.

You:

So there you go. It isn't gainful employment. Some people wouldn't be able to take that job and still meet their families needs let alone their own, what are they to do? It is not accurate to make the statement, "jobs are out there." if it isn't work that actually pays enough for anyone to support themselves and their families.


To me it is gainful, he learns, he gains experience, he understands that if he wants things, he will be helping to provide...now, I just used that as an analogy...his statement was, there is nothing out there...my feeling was...I dont want to work dad, why should I when you can open your wallet. So I guess maybe that goes back to above thought process...You should not expect to be taken care of. To your last sentence...depends, if they live within their means, my neighbors make about 10.00/hour each...that's not a lot more than someone at a min. wage job, but they work hard, they have a nice house, nice vehicles...I'm not sure I am making a coherent point here.

reply to post by Rob37n

i'm too bored to repeat the argumentation of different persons & mine that forces me to give Just a link to relative thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by lewman
I have been reading this thread and notice one issue where people are claiming that Castro killed farmers etc to take Cuba by force. The truth is that he freed the cuban people from rule by the greedy oppresive dictator Batista. Cuba has shown the world that socialism can work and although it has little resources, it has the highest number of doctors per person of any nation in the world. these doctors are then loaned out to other nations like venezuala and even with some african nations.
The other way they get outside help is by loaning out there soldiers to places where the people are fighting against inhumane regimes. Ernesto Guevarra although Argentinian, fell into both of these categories as he was a doctor and a master at gorilla warfare so was able to train local freedom fighters in many useful tactics and methods.
I am English and only in my twenties so I have not been brought up with all this anti Cuban revolution propoganda, but i am still confused when fidel castro is labled a dictator as he has been re-elected on numerous occasions with his brother Raul being voted in now that Fidel has retired.
This is a nation that has brought forward to the U.N around 80% of all international human rights laws that are in place today, and yet another nation who has blown up their airlines, sprayed chemical weapons on their farms, tried to assasanate their leader on over a hundred occassions and does not even acount for a single international human rights law in place today has the bare faced cheek of commiting torture on cubas own soil.

this is not an attack on americans but on the american system its self and the lies it makes the majority of americans believe.

reply to post by Mikemp44

You see the universal balance of things cannot allow one side to gain more ground than the other permanently. Even if we were able to achieve a perfect society, there would exist an equally imperfect society as well. Nature itself enforces this balance and it is part of the human condition.

YeeeeeeeeeeeeZ_zzzzzz, Amicus, i see relative Soul Primest Law of Eterne Systems is

Everything is Right & Everything is Wrong

Originally posted by BigFrigginAl
Lol...so be it...could ya help a fellow out?

[-quote-] text [-/quote-] minus the hyphens.

But the chinese factory worker making pennies a day is fair? A person may not like their wage, but it is up to them to change that, they have that ability here...it may take work, effort, may not be easy, but it is possible.

Not at all, but I don't use China as a proof of Communism.

I agree that it is possible, but I think it is not plausible. Not everyone can be at the pinnacle of the pyramid.

Unfortunately, I have no grand solution, but yes, I think that is part of the problem...but do not see a way to change that thought process.

I think we first have to understand their reasoning. I believe they want success but they see no way to achieve it, so it is better to get payed to be free than slave away for nothing.

To me it is gainful, he learns, he gains experience, he understands that if he wants things, he will be helping to provide...now, I just used that as an analogy...his statement was, there is nothing out there...my feeling was...I dont want to work dad, why should I when you can open your wallet. So I guess maybe that goes back to above thought process...You should not expect to be taken care of. To your last sentence...depends, if they live within their means, my neighbors make about 10.00/hour each...that's not a lot more than someone at a min. wage job, but they work hard, they have a nice house, nice vehicles...I'm not sure I am making a coherent point here.

I understand what you are saying. By my point is that the job doesn't pay enough for someone to support themselves and their family and so it is not gainful employment. It may help children learn the facts of life, but it doesn't feed a family.

Those families, lacking recourse, can not work that job and collect welfare to help bolster themselves and press forward. It is an either or situation.

You neighbor works 10.00 and hour and that increase from minimum wage is substantial when you are talking about so little capital. I would have to know if they are a dual income household and understand all of their expenses before I could comment further. But, I will venture to guess that from the sound of it he doesn't own his house outright. He had to rely on credit in the hopes of securing it in the future.

Relying on credit is not living within your means, IMO.

Under a true socialist or communist regime you will have a totalitarian dictator, and will be stripped of your freedoms and rights.

I have yet to see any communist society that was not taken over by a power-hungry megalomaniac, that stripped the rights and freedoms of every one of his subjects. It is the rule of the military, and maintains its power by means of military might, and often resorts to the mass killings of millions of its subjects. It is a godless society where religion is forbidden, unless that religion decides to preach communism from its pulpits, as did the Russian Orthodox Church.

The ideas of socialism may seem ideal to people. But the reality of it, is that it can never function to the betterment of humankind because those in power have ALWAYS and by experience will always abuse their power.

Those who claim that it is a better way of life care little for freedom, or are unaware of how abusive these governments are.

Originally posted by Calender
Under a true socialist or communist regime you will have a totalitarian dictator, and will be stripped of your freedoms and rights.

Oh nice! More revisionism! This isn't even remotely close to true.

I have yet to see any communist society that was not taken over by a power-hungry megalomaniac, that stripped the rights and freedoms of every one of his subjects. It is the rule of the military, and maintains its power by means of military might, and often resorts to the mass killings of millions of its subjects. It is a godless society where religion is forbidden, unless that religion decides to preach communism from its pulpits, as did the Russian Orthodox Church.

Well, I'll show you one!

They are called the EZLN. Feel free to educate yourself further.

The ideas of socialism may seem ideal to people. But the reality of it, is that it can never function to the betterment of humankind because those in power have ALWAYS and by experience will always abuse their power.

And yet, this statement has been proven false in this thread. You really should take the time to read it to help deny ignorance.

Those who claim that it is a better way of life care little for freedom, or are unaware of how abusive these governments are.

See the funny thing is, you believe this since you haven't bothered doing any research to show that it is actually to the contrary. Someone taught you that and you just swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I wonder who benefits from you thinking this way?

Originally posted by fredcall
Socialism is Communism Lite.

Your piston driven gas car is just a big explosion made Lite.

Originally posted by RRokkyy

Originally posted by fredcall
Socialism is Communism Lite.

Your piston driven gas car is just a big explosion made Lite.

Both are true

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


[quote] [-quote-] text [-/quote-] minus the hyphens.

Thank you!
Well, just previewed my attempt, did something wrong.

We can go on like this, but i doubt we will ever sway each others opinions, since it is getting late in the day, almost time to pick up the kiddos, I will leave with a thank you for the interesting conversation, it definitely provided a bit of respite from these damn spreadsheets I have been working on!

reply to post by BigFrigginAl


LOL...wow, that came out really wrong! Gonna have to play with that quote function!

Socialism doesn't work period and is the what the new world order wants on a global level so they can cut the remaining middle class. You need to do some research on the new world order if you don't understand this. The new world order LOVES China and they are a National Socialistic country just like Nazi Germany. This is the goal for the new world order globally as this is much easier to control for them.

The US medical system will be a nightmare unless ObamaCare is aborted and we bring in natural cures. YOu can cure cancer in 80% or more of the cases with hemp oil. Google "Rick Simpson Run from the Cure" for details on this, but our Rockefeller medical won't let you use a natural substance that can't be patented. Instead of curing yourself with less than $100 of hemp oil, they want to charge the government $500,000 to $1,000,000 for cancer treatments containing Chemotherapy! The Chemotherapy kills you of course eventually but not before they make a LOT of money on you.

Wake up bubba, Socialism is the road to hell.

Originally posted by MGriff
Because capitalism and advancing one's lot in life is part of America. We don't have capitalism in America presently, we have corporatism. Communism and socialism have failed historically, and is not in conjunction with the liberties America was founded on. China, the biggest communist country is a blend of both, more communo-capitalism. I'm not saying that our present society hasn't drifted away from these historical liberties, just that the nature and history of America is on the opposite end of the spectrum. This is why bringing up socialism to combat Obama is so effective with the American people--they are scared it will happen, but not proactive enough to look at recent history and see the similarities.

edit on 1-12-2010 by MGriff because: (no reason given)

Social mobility (the ability to earn more money than one's parents did) is lower in the US than in many European countries. And that isn't due to the current recession, the recession is just making it worse.

www.economist.com...
www.nytimes.com...

Originally posted by Calender
Under a true socialist or communist regime you will have a totalitarian dictator, and will be stripped of your freedoms and rights.

I have yet to see any communist society that was not taken over by a power-hungry megalomaniac, that stripped the rights and freedoms of every one of his subjects. It is the rule of the military, and maintains its power by means of military might, and often resorts to the mass killings of millions of its subjects. It is a godless society where religion is forbidden, unless that religion decides to preach communism from its pulpits, as did the Russian Orthodox Church.

Yugoslavia was for 45 years a prosperous country that empowered the people, promoted self-governance, had laws that protected the individual in almost every conceivable way. It has not maintained its rule by military, but by proper government mostly. During the communist era, there were 10 times more people in churches than today. You could be a christian, jew, muslim or whatever you wanted, no problem. The only thing is, you couldn't be actively practising a religion and a part of the government. It was a way to ensure a secular state and to curb the influence of religious authorities. Nothing more.

So, I guess you have yet to see, period.

I tell you again, read a book or two from John Pilger before proclaiming you know all about communism and democracy and such. You might be surprised to what you find.

I wont comment on the rest of your post. It doesnt allow for an argument.