Magic: The Last Resort.

Magic, what it is?

It's a method to comfort people who have feel that they have lost the influence to the enviroment, that they feel they cannot affect it by physical means. To me it seem that it is the last resort before giving up or going mentally insane.

From times immemorial, those poor women who were subjucated by their men and society, resorted in magic in which they found comfort.

I once explored the realm(?) of magic, not out from necessity, but out of curiosity. I gathered information, rites, words, mantras - you name it. I tried their effects only to learn that they do not have any other use than psychological. Religions are magic 2.0 - their only purpose is to give comfort to the subjucated people in their misery; live a good (and productive) life and you will be rewarded after you die (while we rip you off until then).

Why I have researched occult? Because I have 'given my soul to morning star' and I seek the knowledge of all things. How could I explain to anyone (especially myself) that what is the nature of something, unless I've personally experienced it? So I went worth to explore.

What I found out? Only that magic works in psychological realm, either one or the group that participates in magical rite. They receive certain psychological power, but thats it. This same psychological force manifests itself though modern rites, like watching a football game in a group.

So, today I encountered a thead on ATS which suggested using occult voodoo magic against the elite. All I see is a little human being so powerless, who is not control of his life and his environment, so he seeks comfort in occult, as have done many people before him and will do after him. But nevertheless, I wish best for all you believers in magic. This is just my opinion, yet it is based on experience, not heresay!

-v

reply to post by v01i0


With regards to religion, not all promise you heaven or some kind of reward in the afterlife. Some are philisophical and teach you to be more realistic and less Ego driven.

As for magic, i agree that a lot of it seems to be psychological. However i believe that our brains are far more powerful that we understand and there is ways you can effect yourself and the world around you. Whether your just changing your perception or effecting other peoples psychology in some way. Your still getting some effect from it so im not going to discount its effects out of hand.

I think the view some people have is, pulling rabbits out of hats. Where people seem to be doing magic but you know theres a trick soemwhere down the line. They then apply this same logic to things like the occult. Misunderstanding it completely. Ive never set out to preform "magic" nor do i have any real knowlege of the various "schools or groups" of magic. So im hoping to learn a little from this thread.

i have to defend the op of the vodoo thread,hes actualy smart enough to propose this,it dosnt mean that hes powerless in real life.
the elite people you so much hate are powerfull and rich,the only way you can hurt them since americands cant gather and protest like the french is to curse them, and if you dont believe in real magic you should go to some jamaican isle or something like that,and see if magic is real

reply to post by KrypticCriminal

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
reply to post by v01i0

 

With regards to religion, not all promise you heaven or some kind of reward in the afterlife. Some are philisophical and teach you to be more realistic and less Ego driven.

That is true, and I appreciate them little bit more. And furthermore, religions in their true purpose are means to unite the divine and the chtonic. Religions (religare) means to bind, as does the sanskrit word yoga AFAIAAO. When considering all religions, amongst them is the esoteric core, where all religions agree. It is the true purpose of religion, to unite both psychologically(spiritually), socially and culturally. But in general, religions today are used for purposes of power and control, their true meaning largely forgotten.

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
reply to post by v01i0

 

As for magic, i agree that a lot of it seems to be psychological. However i believe that our brains are far more powerful that we understand and there is ways you can effect yourself and the world around you.

Yeah. Human psyche is quite as unknown as the furthest space or deepest ocean - no one knows it completely. Hence it seems mysterical, even magical. If we humans truly knew ourselves, society would be completely another kind. I don't know what we are capable of (I've had some precognitive dreams and experiences of clairaudiences) in the end, but certainly there is something behind the magical idea of complete union... However, my experiences shows me that we are unable to affect physical reality directly through magic. We cannot change physical lead to physical gold, but we can make aurum non vulgi (not common gold). That is to say, that we can affect ourselves, and through it, the physical realm.

-v

Magic: The Gathering

reply to post by Stillalive

Originally posted by Stillalive
i have to defend the op of the vodoo thread,hes actualy smart enough to propose this,it dosnt mean that hes powerless in real life.
the elite people you so much hate are powerfull and rich,the only way you can hurt them since americands cant gather and protest like the french is to curse them, and if you dont believe in real magic you should go to some jamaican isle or something like that,and see if magic is real

No problem with that. About Jamaicans, we do have our own native shamans here in Finland. Witches of Lapland However, all their magick is psychological. I ask you to read this post, especially the last few phrases, to understaind my argument.

-v

reply to post by v01i0

But in general, religions today are used for purposes of power and control, their true meaning largely forgotten.

Yeah i thinks thats both the problem with most religions today and peoples problem with Religions today. I refuse to believe that my soul can be held to ransom, and when i die. The afterlife i experience will be of my own creation. Good or bad.

However, my experiences shows me that we are unable to affect physical reality directly through magic. We cannot change physical lead to physical gold, but we can make aurum non vulgi (not common gold). That is to say, that we can affect ourselves, and through it, the physical realm.

Well ive seen a video where a person was able to effect the PH of water using thoughts alone. I suppose you could call that magic that effects the physical world. The problem is the definition of magic. Is it only magic if you preform some kind of ritual before hand? Is magic the desired effects of the ritual itself? Its pretty mirky at best, so i suppose its kind of subjective.

So my question would be. What is magic?

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

Well ive seen a video where a person was able to effect the PH of water using thoughts alone.

I've seen too many videos (and heard too many stories) on various kinds of alleged capabilities to affect material world with thought (telekinesis and so on). Unfortunately many of the videos were hoaxes and the stories were just stories. I am not saying that this ain't possible in theory; that is one of the reasons why I set out to personally investigate.

I have had some rather interesting results, but they were psychological rather than physical.

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
The problem is the definition of magic.

Definately. I would say that casting lethal bolts of lightning from fingertips by mere intention would be magic. But clairaudience, -voyance or telepathic mind reading of thoughs are not, because I've experienced some and found nothing magical in them. Magical would be also unexplainable. But as explanations (causes) come clear to us, the magic retreats. Guns appeared magical to many natives during european explansions. Sometimes belief in magic is only ignorance. If someone casts lightning bolts from fingertips, then surely I would feel ignorant Even if I knew he would be just performing visual trick, I'd still feel ignorant until I knew how it was done.

Anyway, I firmly hold it that real magic is subjective and psychological. This I have deducted from experiences - but I am still open to the possibility that there is something else. I just got this annoying agnostic attitude towards all things. I don't believe in what I don't know, or what I haven't experienced. But on the other hand, I seldom deny their existence a priori.

-v

reply to post by v01i0

This I have deducted from experiences - but I am still open to the possibility that there is something else. I just got this annoying agnostic attitude towards all things. I don't believe in what I don't know, or what I haven't experienced. But on the other hand, I seldom deny their existence a priori.

I'm the same. Taking other peoples word for things is'nt my style. I dont redcule those beliefs but i certainly question them untill im satisfyed with the answers. This leads people to believe im a non believer which usualy loses me support from the very people who believe the same.

Dont take anything at face value, even if its your best freind who's waving it waving it there in front of you.

Paranoid?.


Possibly but its just how i roll

I believe in magic because I have experienced far too many instances of thoughts manifesting to believe they are coincidences. A fresh example from the other day, in the evening I was considering doing some travelling and I checked the ferry prices. The next day I was offered a work oppertunity which involved travelling around Europe and possibly the US. So I believe thoughts create reality, via the Law of Attraction. Now, after doing some research into ritual magic, it seems blatently obvious that the rituals are a formal and powerfull method of manipulating the LOA.

I don't think that you can generalise that way. To say that someone who has lost control of the environment seeks comfort in magic is wrong. It may be the case for some but not for all.

For my part I was interested in magic from my teen years. I had a good education and prospects ahead of me. I embarked on the study of astrology in the first instance whilst also studing for a professional career. I did the two side by side. After I qualified I started to work for a large firm and then took on studies in the occult seriously.

You have only told half the story. Magic does affects the practitioner psychologically but what you did not say is that in consequence it affects the environment. It is one of the key point in magic . It is all about the intergration of the mind into the environment. Once you have done that trick then a change of mental outlook = change of circumstances.

With practice you can change your circumstances as you wish. The more advanced side of magic has to do with ultimate control of the environment and is far more complex.

Before anyone considers studying magic they must have a solid platform in the form of financial stability as well as emotional stability.

I mentioned in a thread earlier today that those who can should use the occult against the elite - fighting them with their own weapons. Perhaps you stumbled upon my post earlier today or was it someone else's

reply to post by crowdedskies

Originally posted by crowdedskies

You have only told half the story. Magic does affects the practitioner psychologically but what you did not say is that in consequence it affects the environment.

Fair point. Half of story in the OP, but I stated later on this post that:

Originally posted by v01i0

So it kinda seems to me that we can affect reality via magic, not by it. If we cause change in ourselves by "magical means", whatever they'd be, through the magical act affecting ourselves, we affect physical reality.

... my experiences shows me that we are unable to affect physical reality directly through magic. We cannot change physical lead to physical gold, but we can make aurum non vulgi (not common gold). That is to say, that we can affect ourselves, and through it, the physical realm. (emphasis by v01i0)

However, I still do think that in most cases when one is motivated to affect physical reality through magic, the motivation arises from the need to influence things one otherwise cannot change by physical means... It doesn't mean that one has to be completely powerless in social life and/or physical world, but nevertheless there is something he thinks he cannot do without magic.. You are quite correct that one needs huge amount of money to buy all the equipment you need for spells (Ironically Paracelsus said in the Archidoxes of magic that all those things - pentagrams, candles, sticks etc - are vain.) But I agree that even the knowledge of the occult can come costly.

I don't know if this made any sense, but I try to answer further questions if you have any.

-v

reply to post by March of the Fire Ants

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
I believe in magic because I have experienced far too many instances of thoughts manifesting to believe they are coincidences. [....] So I believe thoughts create reality, via the Law of Attraction.

Of course thoughts affect reality, there's no doubt about that. But thoughts affect reality only if the thinker is also actor, or in case someone else carries the tought into deed. I cannot get a hotdog simply by thinking it, I have also work for it. Law of attraction is a nice little simplification of a complicated thing. Law of attraction is kind of psychological factor, which binds our thoughts enough to cause a motivation to carry a deed based on those thoughts.

Congrats for the work opportunity btw I am not sure if you thoughts caused the opportunity, but they might've. You cannot say that for sure either. Why does law of attraction work sometimes, but not all the time? There might be other factors behind it as well... We must investigate.

I would imagine that law of attraction works best on psychological level too. Once we fix our mind in something, we tend to see these occurances more often, somehow related to our original thought. Like some people see digits 11:11 all the time (according to ATS sources). I think it has lot to do with more generalized form of human thinking. Associativness is a property of human mind. I'd compare it to the abstract orbital gravity. Once our thoughts are drawn towards certain idea, it acts like a gravity center and our thoughts tend to stay on the orbit until the gravity is depleted. During this time, we see, hear and otherwise perceive things related to the original idea.

Anyhow, there are many other sides to this issue as well and a post or two may be too short space to even scratch the surface. But it is thus as certain ideas get enough gravity (of though) they tend to materialize through acts. It is all so with ideologies, policies, architecture and so on. If enough people want something, it has a good chance of happening.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


I guess I have to ask you. What do you believe is Magic? Is what is called telepathy magic? How about being able to control the weather with your mind? Being able to see things others can not? The ability to control what other people do? To make others sick or better with your mind? Or do you think Magic is just ceremony's or rituals that anyone can do? Sort of like flipping a switch to turn on the overhead light? 50 years ago a lot of what we do now would have been called magic. Most people from than would have a very hard time doing the things we do now and take for common like talking to people on a screen by pushing buttons. I know being from that time. Without training which most people today have received from childhood they would not be able to operate in this modern world. Others today might call magic ESP. Back than it was called PSI. So what is YOUR definition of Magic?

Originally posted by v01i0
[You are quite correct that one needs huge amount of money to buy all the equipment you need for spells (Ironically Paracelsus said in the Archidoxes of magic that all those things - pentagrams, candles, sticks etc - are vain.) But I agree that even the knowledge of the occult can come costly.

I don't know if this made any sense, but I try to answer further questions if you have any.

-v

edit on 8-11-2010 by v01i0 because: 833

Thanks for clarifying the point about affecting reality via magic as opposed to directly. Yes we can both agree on the matter of intergrating the mind with the environment and changing the outside world through a psychological impulse.

Now, there is another kind of magic which is more direct.That can take many forms; from using elementals to do your bidding to uttering words of power. This kind of magic is very advanced.

I must clarify one thing. When I said that you need financial stability before embarking on the study of magic, I did not mean that you need to be rich. I will suffice to have a regular income and be able to make ends meet .

As for Paracelsus, I have read his work. I must say that I find the old texts to be quite irrelevant sometimes and I agree that magical props, as I like to call them, can be quite useless. My own personal view is that magic needs to grow out of the old mould of the hermit with the cloak. You stand more chance of being effective if you wear a track suit instead of a robe. As for words of power, english will do . No need for latin or hebrew although can be useful for the right vibration.

Perhaps we should divide magic into 2 categories. One is the easy one - playing with visualisation and and pure positive thoughts. The other fall in the realm of invokation and using words of power. The dedication required for the latter is all too often impractical is this fast moving world.

reply to post by Jerk_Idiot

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
reply to post by v01i0

 

I guess I have to ask you. What do you believe is Magic?

Okay, I will answer your question one at a time, but first I have to state that I think that term magic is very elusive. For me, magic doesn't really exists as something unnatural, but rather as something, which we cannot explain with our understanding about laws of nature and physics. I think that term magic usually refers to psychological effects of rituals, which again can affect via the participants the physical and social reality.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Is what is called telepathy magic?

Not really - or it depends: I see telepathy as a capability to read other people's thought from the weak signals they emit through their bodylanguage, dressing and speech. But if you can speak to me in my mind with audible words that others cannot hear. Then yes, that telepathy would appear to be magical.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
How about being able to control the weather with your mind?

That would be magic.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Being able to see things others can not?

No that's not magic. It's a capability of mind.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
The ability to control what other people do?

It depends. Some people are great manipulators without any magic included. But if I can make you jump off the cliff by snap of finger, that would be magic.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
To make others sick or better with your mind?

Depends again. I can speak words of comfort and even manipulate people to heal themselves (known as placebo effect) - but again, if it happens by some energy or I somehow mystically fix the broken bone instantly even without touching it, that would be magic.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Or do you think Magic is just ceremony's or rituals that anyone can do?

Pretty much so.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
So what is YOUR definition of Magic?

Indeed, what it is? I don't know. Perhaps my definition is deductable from all above posts. I would say that it would be magic if I read a spell from a book, memorize it, then cast it through my fingers as a fireball

Magic can refer into so many things, but usually it is consider to be something unexplainable and has something to do with manipulating forces that are superior to us. I don't really believe in Dungeons&Dragons type magic, but I know that in human psyche, there is something almost magical. Our psyche can be affected through symbols and rites, even so that we can actually see something that others cannot.

Because of personal experiences, it seems to me as if magic is mostly psychological. But it doesn't render it something non-existent. Everything that happens inside one's head is real for the subject.

Crowededskies above mentioned words of power, that should be able directly affect the reality. I don't know about that. I'd admit some words or phrases that can literally have effect in social or even in psychological context. But I doubt whether I can break the tree just saying sah (or whatever).

-v

Originally posted by crowdedskies.

Perhaps we should divide magic into 2 categories. One is the easy one - playing with visualisation and and pure positive thoughts. The other fall in the realm of invokation and using words of power. The dedication required for the latter is all too often impractical is this fast moving world.

I take it so as if you referring word of power as vibrations that can affect material. Like in Bible they broke walls of Jericho or like in Dune they use these guns that are operated by sound?

I've written about the subject on ATS before (can be reviewed here), so hopefully I am not appearing completely ignorant towards the subject. I admit the possibility (or potent) of sound. However, I am not sure if it can be applied to all and everything, since there is a limit of frequencies that human can produce. I am inclined to think that this 'word of power' -theory is more wishful thinking. Not to sound offensive, I only mean that we might overestimate certain aspects in sound theory when saying that we can break bones with a word. Or I can if I am a mob boss "Guys, break his knees!"

Anyway, I accept the assumption, that sound has more potent that we generally understand. Why so fond on music anyway? Poetry anyone? But maybe I can produce a sound that make the grains of sand vibrate on a plate.. Who knows what is possible and what is not?

-v

reply to post by v01i0


I'm sorry but you are wrong...


Magic is any technology which is sufficiently complex....

The technology of what we traditionnaly call magic is very similar to the technology applied by the psychoanalyst... Just on the self.


You should seek to find what magic really is as opposed to casting it as a placeholder for the weak minded.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Am I wrong because our definitions for magic are perhaps different? It is hard to say all in single OP - which deals with magic from perhaps the most common perspective, that it is a method of poor housewifes who are oppresed between the fist and the oven. Kind of wishful thinking or source of comfortation in a hard psychological situation where the ways to cope are restricted.

Anyways, I see what you mean. To me, magic tends to refer into something that operates mystically and evades our logical explanations. Technology hardly does.

-v

Originally posted by v01i0


I take it so as if you referring word of power as vibrations that can affect material. Like in Bible they broke walls of Jericho or like in Dune they use these guns that are operated by sound?

Anyway, I accept the assumption, that sound has more potent that we generally understand. Why so fond on music anyway? Poetry anyone? But maybe I can produce a sound that make the grains of sand vibrate on a plate.. Who knows what is possible and what is not?

-v

Yes I did mean words of power as vibrations that cause things to happen. From what I understand this is the ultimate magical feat. For example the ability to make rain fall by words. It is important to mention because it sets the limits to our discussion.

I admit that I have never met anyone who could do this I am quite prepared to take this on board though.

Whilst we have agreed about the general interplay of group thinking and the impact on the environment, somebody did mention a very important point and that is telepathy. Telepathy is probably the most potent form of day to day magic. Through telepathy someone can put a suggestion into someone else's mind. This might accord with your view that we need another player. For example I suggest telepathically to my boss that he gives me a pay rise. But I suppose this is nothing special and not direct enough to be magic in your view.

Now what about energy. They say that energy follow the focus of attention. Thus it is not surprising that if I stare at that beautiful woman walking down the road, she will turn her head and look straight at me. That trick never fails and everyone must have tried it once. What if we take it one step further and cause a person to trip as they walk. Yet another trick that some people seem to be able to do.

Another interesting basic kind of magic is the transfer of consciousness into something else. Now this is very interesting because you are now directly taking control of an object. I have achieved this a few times and enough to create a rapid change in my immediate environment. But I must admit once I did it out of frustration after all else failed.

Therefore your title is actually very much in line with what a well known magician advised. First you must try to get what you want using the nomal means available (eg ask, make a phone call, visit someone, arrange something, etc) . Only if all fails do you use magic. In that respect magic would be a last resort.