The "evil" U.S. and iraq

I have seen a LOT of venom directed towards the U.S. as a result of our liberation of Iraq. So allow me to try and portray a more balanced view.
While the prisoner abuse scandal is horrific I dont believe it was either systemic or policy.
Many here have denied that the U.S. is doing a good thing in Iraq but lets look at it rationally.
Everyday in iraq men and women sit in cafes and blast the U.S. "occupation" They lampoon Paul Bremer, and they talk about how horrible the coalition is.
The fact that they can do so without fear of being seized in the middle of the night and tortured as they would have been had they said the same thing about saddam is PROOF that the U.S. forces are the good guys.
Hundreds of new newspapers have been formed since the takeover most of which have been dedicated to bad mouthing America, but how many of these people would have been willing to do the same under the old regime?
People say that the liberation of Iraq has made the war on terror worse.
Terrorists recruit disadvantaged youths who are angry for thier "soldiers" But there is more opportunity in raq today than at any time in the last 25 years and growing all the time. As a direct result of the U.S. liberation Iraq will be a FAR less fertile ground for terrorist recruters in the future.
People say that the U.S. wants to make Iraq an American colony and yet we have turned over legal authority to the Iraqui interim government a full 2 days early.


At the end of the day we did excatly what we said we would, got in, took out saddam, and now were getting out.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kudos to you for having such optimism! Now you're getting out eh? You seem to have missed your own leaders repeatedly stating that they expect US troops to be in Iraq for years to come. Authority was handed over 2 days early to counter any resistance operations carried out in conjunction with the hand over. It was more of a strategic manouvre than a show of willingness to hand over sovereignty. Wow, a full 2 days...

Oh, you forgot to add WMDs to your To Do list.

By the way, your signature scares me. What exactly are Americans chosen by God for?

[edit on 28-6-2004 by cargo]

Will U.S. troops be in Iraq for years to come? Probably. The question is, in what numbers and in what role? Do I see the vast numbers of troops we have patrolling the city streets a year from now? No. I do see small numbers of U.S. troops stationed in Iraq for the traning of the police and military forces, and marines stationed at the new embassy, but not much more. As for the WMD question, We were wrong. We gave our adversary too much credit. So what we weren't the only people who thought Saddam had em, we were just the only country with the guts to do anything about it. (and with the U.N.s seal of approval no less)
As for what we (Americans) were chosen by god for, we were chosen to lead all peoples on the road to a democratic government, to fight injustice, and spread the words of tolerance and diversity which my nation was founded on.
Which our troops re doing as we speak in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Of course we are going to continue to help the new Iraq regardless of what some of you in the world think.

Did we abandon Japan/Germany after WWII?

No we helped them, and yes that included military bases being in those countries, if you take a look we are still there, and what has happened to them since, well, Japan has become one of the strongest economic nations in the world along with Germany who by the way would be under the boot of the Soviet Union had it not been for the United States.

Good things happen when the US military is there to protect you while you go to the task of building a new country, government, economy, etc...

Iraq is in the same vulnerable condition that the post WWII countries were and you can ask.....

Do we abandon them in the face of criticism from countries who did not have the courage to stand with us in this difficult endeavor or do we stay and nurture the fledgling country and assist them in any way possible to ensure that their citizens have the same opportunities that we Americans are fortunate to have.

I think we will stay, to leave now will only serve the criticizers' purposes and it wouldn't be too long before those same criticizers will be attacking us for leaving the new Iraq unprepared to handle their new sovereignty.

Originally posted by mwm1331
As for what we (Americans) were chosen by god for, we were chosen to lead all peoples on the road to a democratic government, to fight injustice, and spread the words of tolerance and diversity which my nation was founded on.
Which our troops re doing as we speak in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Firstly, Americans were not chosen by God for anything. Only some mad Yank Christian Fundamentalist would say that they were (not accusing you ot anything). Futhermore, how can wiping out the majority of the native American peoples be called, 'spreading the words of tolerence and diversity' surely America was founded more on the bodies of dead Indians than it was on 'tolerence and diversity'

Eddie show me a single country in the world today that is Not built on countless bodies. Have we made mistakes? Yes. Do those mistakes make our entire history irrellevant though? I dont think so. Yes America as a nation is founded on the Ideal that "all men are created equal" There is no other nation on earth to whom that phrase is the meaning of country. There is no other nation which allows as much political freedom, or religous freedom, as the U.S. There is no other country where a man can speak as rudley or in as derrogatory of a manner about his leaders and government than the U.S. Name another country which passed an ammendment declaring that all citizens have the right to bear arms so that they have the abillity to rise up in rebellion. I believe that the Constitution and the Bill of rights though written by men were inspired by god. In the book of genesis when speaking of the fall of Adam states that God knew he would taste of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and yet allowed him the free will to choose wrong. Free will was given to men by god himself and the U.S. was the first country to recognise and protect that gift as a central basis of the countries existance. So yes I believe America is GODS COUNTRY.

Dont Compare the war in Iraq with WW2. Over 60 years ago, different government, indisputable reasons for acting. Mind you America didn't feel the need to engage until it was attacked, 2 years after Germany began it's blitz. Doesn't seem stop you from riding off the back of the great men and women from all Allied forces who gave everything to bring about that victory though..."we" this and "we" that...

Religious extremists scare me more than anything else, from both sides. If you seem to think God chose you or your country for anything then I would choose to not follow you. I make it a rule to only follow people who use their head, not those blinded by faith.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by cargo]

mwm1331,

You have clearly been blinded by your government's propaganda machine.

The US may be founded on the ideal that "all men are created equal" (already women are omited), but the US has not lived up to the ideal as well as other countries do. The US is ripe with prejudice and racism, turn on the news.

There are other countries which are more accepting of others than the US...look to Canada and the UK to start. Political freedom, religious freedom are far greater in Canada (not sure about UK). We in Canada are far harsher on our politicians, we have several regularly airing shows which actively make fun of our government.

Your logic and reasoning are faulty my friend. It appears as though you have become so America-centred (God's chosen people...give me a break!..!here goes your "all men are created equal" right there!) that you have overlooked several countries who have the same freedoms that the US has, but in which those freedoms are easier to practice.

Let the bashing begin, I can take it.

Cheers,
Lukefj

Dont Compare the war in Iraq with WW2. Over 60 years ago, different government, indisputable reasons for acting. Mind you America didn't feel the need to engage until it was attacked, 2 years after Germany began it's blitz. Doesn't seem stop you from riding off the back of the great men and women from all Allied forces who gave everything to bring about that victory though..."we" this and "we" that...

It is a postwar comparison is you can comprehend.

Also if I remember correctly it wasn't until we (United States of America) got involved that the German "blitz" was repelled and defeated, yes alot of countries were involved but without the U.S. victory was not possible.

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
Also if I remember correctly it wasn't until we (United States of America) got involved that the German "blitz" was repelled and defeated, yes alot of countries were involved but without the U.S. victory was not possible.

I have to disagree with you there. The USSR successfully defeated Germany in the east without any U.S military help, and pushed the Germans right back to Berlin without any U.S military help.

Although I agree U.S intervention quickened WW2 it could have been won without U.S intervention but casualities would have been much higher.

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
Also if I remember correctly it wasn't until we (United States of America) got involved that the German "blitz" was repelled and defeated, yes alot of countries were involved but without the U.S. victory was not possible.

That is a speculative statement, and you therefore may like to speculate as to how many lives may have been spared if the USA had taken the initiative to enter the war with its allies from the beginning.

Despite the size of the fight, British, Scottish, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and many others answered the enemy. Fighting to free Europe from the Nazis and moving to halt the Japanese advance regardless of the ignored calls for America to help.

This is getting off topic I guess, but it had to be said.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by cargo]

Ummmmmmmm Lukefj, did you ever see a show called "thats my bush"? Between portraying the president as mentally enfeebled fool who takes orders to portraying cheney asd a dying android who can only be sustained by defribulaton I don't think Canada has a lock on making fun of your leaders.
As for religous freedom being more tolerated in Canada is Satanism a legal church there?
It is in the U.S. up to and including a section in the U.S. army's chaplain handbook on how do deal with them (minister to without insulting thier religon) in times of crisis. We also allow the native american church to take drugs even though they are illeagl due to thier religous beliefs.
In my home state an Islamic woman has sued the state for requiring her to uncover her face on her drivers license. Now while I think the courts ruled against her most courts world wide would never have even heard the case as it is so ridiculous.
As to political freedom being greater in Canada I think your mistaken, Your coutry is very heavily socialised which by nature leads to less freedom. If you can show proof as to how your country is more poltically free than the U.S. plese do.
If you think that prejudice and Racism is nonexistant in Canada you are deluded.
However its not as noticeable partially because Canada is NOWHERE near as diverse a population as the U.S. I mean its kinda hard to be racist when everyone is white don't you think?
I never said other countries didn't have freedoms like we do just that we were the first in modern history to give all citizens an equal say.
What Bashng?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Canada is NOWHERE near as diverse a population as the U.S. I mean its kinda hard to be racist when everyone is white don't you think?

Oh...my. I'm going to leave this for a Canadian to respond to. Dude, you are Canada's neighbour, your ignorance is almost as blinding as your faith. You need to get out more, and no I don't mean interstate.

mwm1331,

You are the poster child for "ignorance is bliss." Educate yourself before you generate responses like that above. Canada is as diverse as the US if not more. Further, we do not have the melting pot as the US has we prefer the cultural mosaic.

I echo cargo's statement above. mwm1331...catch a clue my friend.

Peace,
Lukefj

Did someone say venom? The US need s to pull out. It is not going to happen till 2006. I love this country, I hate the people that run it.

mwm 1331 and JacKatMtn,
It is grea to see your patriotism shining through the dark clouds of hate and resentment. Too bad some people cannot see that God Bless the U.S.A. is not a statement but a prayer to the Lord asking for His Blessings. We as Americans can take pride in our country and all that it stands for. Where would the world be if America did not carry the burdens of the world on it's shoulders? Keep fighting the good fight.

look cargo I'm just stating a fact. Canada has nowhere near the ethnic, or religous diversity of the U.S.
according to the C.I.A. world factbook this is a breakdown of canadas ethnicities

British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%

now do the math thats 66% caucasion
2% amerindians
6% people of color
26% mixed (of which a lot are of two caucasion groups I.E. french and british islanders.
The fact is Canada is a Much whter country than the U.S. with much less diversity.

I have to disagree with you there. The USSR successfully defeated Germany in the east without any U.S military help, and pushed the Germans right back to Berlin without any U.S military help.

Wrong, this could not have happened without the US helping the Allies destroy the Nazis in Africa, France, Italy, etc. The Russians also were helped immensely by mother nature which stopped the Germans "cold" that final winter prior to the Russians mopping them up.

Despite the size of the fight, British, Scottish, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and many others answered the enemy. Fighting to free Europe from the Nazis and moving to halt the Japanese advance regardless of the ignored calls for America to help.

By no means am I trying to discount the bravery of all who fought against the Axis powers in WWII, my apologies if this was inferred, The UK, Australians, New Zealanders and Canadiens are very brave, courageous and capable fighters and always have been, but I still believe that the US was the only country who had the resources to take this enemy to its ultimate defeat. As far as not getting involved until we were attacked you have to take in consideration the "isolationist" ideals which were strong in our country at that time, as I remember this was also the policy of the UK, France at the same time, allowing Nazi Germany to take over quite a few countries and only when the Germans finally took the battle to the UK, France thus bringing the war home to them, it just took a couple more years for the war to come home to us.

Actually mwm1331, Canada has the second highest foreign-born population in the world (almost 20%)..right behind...nope not the US, Australia.

I think that makes us more diverse. Thank you very much. White and black are not the only forms of diversity my friend.

Again, read a book, travel, learn about your neighbours, we may surprise you!

Peace,
Lukefj

PS. The US is only 11% forieng-born...you have a lot of catching up to do!



[edit on 28-6-2004 by Lukefj]

Lukefj according to ethnologists there are only 3 ethnic groupings
Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid
All races fall into one of the three.
I'm sorry but I dont consider a population of mixed europeans particularly diverse.
You want diversity come down to Miami. Blacks, Whites, South Americans, Middle easterners, you name it we got it.
There is a reason that the U.S. and not canada is known as the melting pot.