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The "evil" U.S. and iraq

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posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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EXACTLY my point. You should look into the definition of the melting pot. You snookered your argument there my friend. The melting pot does not breed diversity. It breeds conformity.

Also, look up Mosaic. This is what Canada is composed of, a cultural mosaic. Clearly you haven't been to Europe if you think you can bunch all Euro's under one group.

Diversity is not measured only by the colour of your skin my friend.

Lukefj




posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 09:49 AM
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Lukefj I live in Europe at the moment. But the differences in europeans is nowhere near as great as between europeans and arabs or between haitians and the dutch. Also at the U.S's current size it would be impossible to have immigration levels at 20% its not sustainable.
For the most part I've liked the canadians I've met amd I've met a lot, many of my neighbors were canadians (at least half the year they were my neighbors) so I am not completly ignorant. But there is also the relative size of the countries Canada 32 million U.S. 293 million. Also look at how much power every single one of the more organised minorities has gained.
In fact there is not a single ethnic, cultural, orreligous group that has immigrated to america in the last 100 years that has not thrived.
I think that says a lot.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 09:59 AM
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Again you solidify my point. Canada because of it's size is much more diverse...almost 20% foreign born.

Because of the US' size the diversity is so dilluted that American culture overtakes all others entering. I'm sorry, but Canada is far more diverse than the US.

I've shown it and you have been unable to refute it.

I realize you are proud of the US, but some of the claims you made earlier in this thread are simply not true and I've shown that. It doesn't make the US a bad country, it jsut means that some of what you believed previously is incorrect. Deal with it, move on.

Cheers,
Lukefj



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 10:17 AM
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I disagree I think in fact that youv'e shown the opposite.
The fact is that there is far more cultural diversity in the U.S. poulace and government than in canada. I'm sorry but a group of mixed europeans is not diversity because all europeans do to some extent have a shared culture and history.
Again look at the figure Asians. africans, and arabs combined are only 6% of your population. The South American population is not even large enough to get a percentage.
Now contast that to the U.S.
black 12.9%
Asian 4% (two thirds of the percentage of Asians, africans, and arabs in canada combined)
Hispanic 10 %
Other 4%
Now these numbers are from the C.I.A. world factbook (Canada) and the 2003 U.S. census numbers(America).
Im sorry but when only 6-10 percent of your population is Non-european I dont see that as true diversity.
By my figures over 28% of the U.S. is a non-european race compared to maybe at best 10% of Canadas. Now to me thats proving someone wrong.
But feel free to Post what numbers you find.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 10:38 AM
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You may have 12.9% African-American and however many Hispanics that you mentioned, but in the end the majority are born and raised in the US melting pot which limits diversity.

I'm not sure I believe you when you say you live in Europe when you state that they all have the same culture to some extent. That is absolutely absurd. Perhaps you are walking around with your eyes closed.

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you have lsot this battle. I'm not sure how many times I have to echo thsi statement, but the colour of your skin does not inherently lead to cultural diversity. Growing up in different areas of the world DOES! Thus since Canada is approx. 20% foreign born and the US is a paltry 11% makes Canada significantly more diverse.

Thank you,
Lukefj

PS. Did you look up the difference between melting pot and mosaic? I didn't think so.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:43 AM
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Okay first of all I said that to some extent all europeans have a shared culture and history.
Meaning that all european cultures have interacted with influenced each other over the last millenia.
Can you possibly disagree?
Imperial rome stretched as far as england.
The french and british Islanders have been in contact for at least 2000 years.
The cultures of Scandinavia have influenced mainland europe since the Migration.
Can you possibly state rationally that french and english culture is more different than french and japanese culture?
Or would It stand to reason that the two cultures due to thier constant interaction are more similar than dissimilar.
Diversity does not just mean foreign born citizens (btw Where precisley did you get that figure of foreign born residents for the U.S. and canada please show your sources)
Cultural is defined as
Of or relating to culture or cultivation.
Diversity is defined as 1.
1. The fact or quality of being diverse; difference.
2. A point or respect in which things differ.
2. Variety or multiformity: Charles Darwin saw in the diversity of species the principles of evolution that operated to generate the species: variation, competition and selection (Scientific American).

Therfore Cultural Diversity may be defined as
Variety of cultures.

America has a greater number of diverse cultures not just one american culture. If you really think that the children of immigrants do not celebrate and practice thier native culture you are severley misinformed.
Also your continued mis-use of the term melting pot is a little irksome.
The "melting po"t analogy is not that people from diverse cultures are melted into the existing american culture but that by BRINGING THIER CULTURE WITH THEM they influence the american culture and help to flavor it with thier own.
Case in point Cinco de mayo is not a native american holiday however it is celebrated in many parts of America by those who brought the tradition with them.
Tell me where are the China towns, little haitis, little havanas etc in canada?
So more of your people are immigrants, they are all imigrating from the same continent.
No offense but EUROPE IS NOT THE WORLD. There are more different cultures in America than in any other country in the world. There is Hatian, cuban, mexican, chinese, korean, japanese, arab, etc.
Also keep in mind that the poulation of your entire country is only 32 million so even if 20% is foreign born (and you have yet to substansiate any numbers BTW) thats only 6 million people.
The immigrant population of the U.S. is 32.5 million which incidentally is approximately the same as your entire country. (U.S. census 2002 so its actually higher than that)

So in short both in sheer numbers of immigrants, the number of diverse cultures, and the size of those cultures by popultion we are more diverse.
We have more immigrants.
We have more distinct different cultures,
And more of our population is from Non-european regions.
And you have yet to verify ANY of your statements.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:47 AM
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One other point geographical distribution does not make diversity.
Both the amish and "average americans" live side by side in Penn but I dont think anyone wuld be foolish enough to argue that they share the same culture.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:40 PM
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Since we are comparing Iraq to WWll,
With respect tp Iraq, How does the actions of the current adminstration differ from those of the Nazi's?
The Nazi's justified their invasion of Poland with an alleged attack on a radio station.
We justified our invasion of Iraq on alleged WMD's which were never found.
Have we waged agressive war in Iraq, by the Nuremberg definition?
If so, what should be done to those who orchestrated it?



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 12:46 PM
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Where did Americans come from, originally? The US was founded by Euros (This really hurts your argument). People from the various countries in Europe are far more diverse than those from the various states in the US and thus their immigration into a country greatly influences that countries diversity; far more than American born African Americans, Hispanics, and Asians. Due to the relatively limited number of foreign born citizens the US diversity is less than those countries whos foreign born population is quite high (see Canada and Australia). You continue to measure diversity by colour of skin rather than cultural/geographic upbringing.

Figures for foreign born Canadian citizens/Uforeign born US citizens:
www12.statcan.ca...

I agree that diversity does not simply a function of foreign born citizens;however, it is certainly part of the equation as they bring with them their language, religion, and customs.

I never said that immigrants did not celebrate and practice their native culture in the US. I was simply refuting your statement indicating that no other country had as much cultural diversity or freedoms of religion etc.. as the US because that statement is BS and Ive shown it repeatedly for you.

The melting pot analogy is used for the states because as people come to the US they are bombarded with American ideals, values, beliefs, etc its everywhere. The US founded the McCulture and Im sorry, but as much as immigrants may bring to the table in the US, I think the melting pot analogy is very apt. Various cultures enter and one culture is the end result. Sure there are variations and exceptions to the rule; however, foreign cultures assimilate in the US much more readily than they are accommodated.

Wow, you really truly are ignorant with respect to your knowledge of Canada. Every Urban center has a little Italy, China town, etc Really, you clearly know nothing of which you speak. You have obviously never been to Canada; whereas I have been to the US, so I can speak about what I know, rather than what I have heard or what my media (which, by the way, is far less biased than that of the US further increasing the opportunity for diversity)

You have repeatedly pointed out the size of the population in Canada as a breaking point in this argument; however, it is clear to me, and should be to you that because we have a smaller population it is inherently much easier for us to be diverse as each new immigrant has the ability to impact our population much more than an immigrant in the US.

Did I state that Europe was the world? I didnt see it anywhere. Im sure I didnt. Canada has many immigrants from all over the world. Our immigration policies are much more inclusive than those in the US. African Americans, Hispanics etcborn and raised in the US although they are statistically significant bring much less to the table (culturally) than if they were foreign born African Americans, or in South America.

Of course you have more immigrants in shear numbers than Canada. The population of the US is huge in comparison, but that certainly does not make your country more diverse when you dilute them between 200 or so million American born inhabitants (The number you cite for immigrants backs up my numbers for % of foreign born immigrants in the US, please see link above if you require further proof).

Your argument has been read and has been found lacking. You will not win this one my friend. The numbers and evidence are against you. You can have your melting pot, I will keep my mosaic.

Peace,
Lukefj


[edit on 28-6-2004 by Lukefj]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:24 AM
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This discussion reminds me of advice my father once gave me
"never try to reason with the unreasonable"
Your arguments are speciuos.
Your contention that only a foreign born population can breed cultural diversity is false.
You have finally proven your numbers but you have yet to show any supporting evidence for your main argument that a foreign born population creates more diversity than a self sustaining immigrant community.
Your argument that the immigrant population is assimilated into the "McCulture" is both unsupportable and offensive.
The U.S. has a wide range of self sustaining cultures within its borders.
The amish in penn
The cubans in south florida
the mexicans in texas and california
the inuit in alaska
the various plains indian tribes who by the way are soveign nations
several muslim arab populations throughout the midwest
just to name a few
each of the examples I've mentioned has kept its cultural identity while achieving success within the larger culture of the U.S.
For example tke the south florida cubn community
The most common Language in South florida is spanish.
The cuban population celebrates the same holidays in the same manner as thier cousins in cuba
You have also forgotten to take account of the Very large Non-resident alien population living and working in The U.S.
In short while it may assuage your ego to declare a "victory" you have yet to show that the foundation argument of your position is valid.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by cargo
By the way, your signature scares me. What exactly are Americans chosen by God for?


To invade and murder ofcause.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:39 AM
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"To invade and murder of course"

Well you are certainly impartial, rational, and well spoken.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:53 AM
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Let's go back to The "evil" U.S. and Iraq, for a minute, US as a country is not evil, we the people of US or most of us, have not problem with helping other countries, most of the people in US love this country and people that come to US from other countries end falling in love with us.

Our view by the rest of the world is not the work of us the people and this country but the work of the administration and the president of this country, not body wants and unnecessary conflict or unnecessary war, but we have not choice the decisions are not make by us the people but by the irrational leaders that are in power.

To the people in the rest of the world, "Please don't hate us and our country but just the leaders of our country."



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Okay first of all I said that to some extent all europeans have a shared culture and history.
Meaning that all european cultures have interacted with influenced each other over the last millenia.
Can you possibly disagree?


I completely disagree. You are assuming Europeans all of European decent. You point to US immigration as a sign of diversity, yet ignore the fact that Europe has even more "Immigrant" culture than the US. Maybe you might like to stop off in London on your European travels and see for yourself!

You can't simply compare an anglo/saxon/gallic/nordic Englishman(that's me) to a Gallic/Anglo/Roman Frenchmen (my hypothetical French friend, Pierre) and assume this is the extent of European diversity! That would be like me comparing people from New York and New Jersey and pointing out they're both similar.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:18 AM
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Muppet What I said was that all european cultures have interacted with, and influenced each other to some extent.
Can you deny that the french, english, germans,dutch, turks, slav, croats, romanians, hungarians, Italians, sicilians, swedes, danes, fins and in fact every nation or peoples in europe have been in contact with each other through either trade, war, or related royalty for the last 1000 years at least?
Can you deny that that contact has influenced both cultures devolpments?
So your english, right, well didnt england get invaded by the Normans (whose name comes from thier home region of normandy) Are you saying that did not influence english culture?
Are you denying that mainland europe was in a near constant state of war for a millenia in which a goodly portion of young males were stationed in foreign countries? And that they did not bring back any of the culture they had experienced?
Can you deny that the inhabitants of modern european countries were trading in tin during the bronze age?
Think about it. To say that france has not influenced romanas culture and vice versa or that italy has not influenced english culture is absurd.
For one thing the catholic church for a number of years kept such tight control that many cultural beliefs are shared by the majority of europeans.
How ever that does not change the fact that a group of europeans does not show the same range of diversity as a group of people from different continents, and hemispheres.
If your trying to say there is a greater range of diversity in a group of Frenchmen, germans, and englishmen than a group of africans asians and hispanics then perhaps logic is not your forte.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
To the people in the rest of the world, "Please don't hate us and our country but just the leaders of our country."



I'm pretty sure most of the thinking people of the world understand this. Americans haven't had a chance to vote since 2000, i.e. before this whole War on Terror stated. If bush is re-elected though in November, that would be different, since he would have the consent and support of the people for his warmongering and corruption.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
To the people in the rest of the world, "Please don't hate us and our country but just the leaders of our country."



Most people dont, even the radicals give the policies of the government as the reason for their hate. It's directed at the top, not at the people.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Muppet What I said was that all european cultures have interacted with, and influenced each other to some extent
Can you deny that the fins and in fact every nation or peoples in europe have been in contact with each other through either trade, war, or related royalty for the last 1000 years at least?
Can you deny that that contact has influenced both cultures devolpments?
So your english, right, well didnt england get invaded by the Normans (whose name comes from thier home region of normandy) Are you saying that did not influence english culture?
Are you denying that mainland europe was in a near constant state of war for a millenia in which a goodly portion of young males were stationed in foreign countries? And that they did not bring back any of the culture they had experienced?
Can you deny that the inhabitants of modern european countries were trading in tin during the bronze age?
Think about it. To say that france has not influenced romanas culture and vice versa or that italy has not influenced english culture is absurd.
For one thing the catholic church for a number of years kept such tight control that many cultural beliefs are shared by the majority of europeans.
How ever that does not change the fact that a group of europeans does not show the same range of diversity as a group of people from different continents, and hemispheres.
If your trying to say there is a greater range of diversity in a group of Frenchmen, germans, and englishmen than a group of africans asians and hispanics then perhaps logic is not your forte.


I see comprehension is not YOUR forte!!

Why do you assume there aren't africans, asians, hispanics, japanese, chinese, arabs, etc in Europe?

[EDIT : and just out of curiosity really, what does bronze age tin trading have to do with anything?]



[edit on 29-6-2004 by muppet]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:28 AM
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TextMost people dont, even the radicals give the policies of the government as the reason for their hate. It's directed at the top, not at the people.


You are right, but to get to our government we the people of this country are the victims of the retaliation, you know overtime I see a member of this country getting kill or worse beheaded, I wish, I truly wish (and this may sound horrible) That it was one of our elected government officials, starting with Bush.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 07:49 AM
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First of all Muppet the entire debate had to do with whether the U.S. or canada had more cultural diversity.
Second the fact is better than 80% of canadians are of european origin. Meaning of european bloodline. (I.E. french german etc.)
My contention was that as a very small percentage of canadian immigrants were from non-european gene pools the United States had more cultural diversity.
The point I was making is that a group of europeans (not imigrants to europe but those whose families have been in europe for centuries or more) will not have as much diversity as a group of people from a larger geographical range.
I made the point about tin trading in the bronze age to illustrate that european cultures have been interacting with and influencing each other for at least a 1000 years. As a result of this interaction, to some extent, all of the cultures in europe share many commonalities.
Now I will ask again can you deny that the cultures of europe have all had a major influence on each other?
Can you deny that manyf european cultures are more similar than dissimilar?

Can you really state that the level of similarity is not greater between say the germans and the italians than it is between the koreans and the brazialians?




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