Masonic Symbol

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
A quote from the website you recommended:

An "old metal set-square" found at Smith's Cove may simply be an innocent artifact, but we recall that three small squares were among the items found in the Secret Vault (Duncan 1972, 243). Indeed, the square is one of the major symbols of Freemasonry which, united with a pair of compasses, comprises the universal Masonic emblem.

As is obvious in context, the square referred to here is the architectural tool used in testing 90 degree angles, not the quadrilateral.

I mean in no way to attack the validity of your vision. I simply mean that it has nothing to do with Masonic symbolism. To proclaim that your ideas are in fact "ancient" Masonic symbols is proofless. Again, I have nothing wrong with what you saw per se just please don't label it "Masonic" just because you wish it to be so.

It states right there!: "Indeed, the square is one of the major symbols of Freemasonry ..."

Besides: I was working with a M-A-S-O-N during part of the vision of the cave with the symbols who told me I had raised my hands (as per instructions from the guys in the cave) in a Masonic greeting. You, Sir - are the one with the 'closed mind'. I knew nothing about Masons at the time and am simply relating an unusual experience that began with the symbol of the triangle with the yod (Mason symbol) and have found other websites that mention the circle, square, and triangle online.. So frankly, I think you are full of B.S. in your Mason 'arrogance'! (Plus, I have received a U2U from a 32nd degree Mason who has offered supporting info as well). And I'm not 'wishing it to be so', but am intuiting it as such - as I, again, was the one having the experience.

Frankly, I was just hoping for some insight into the first symbol and you have gone 'round the bend over some geometric symbols - which the Masons indeed use... and you aren't providing any insight, just 'complaints' about my interpretation of my own experience.


[edit on 30-6-2004 by Mystic7]

[edit on 30-6-2004 by Mystic7]

[edit on 30-6-2004 by Mystic7]

Originally posted by Mystic7
(Plus, I have received a U2U from a 32nd degree Mason who has offered supporting info as well).

Here is what I received in a U2U:

"Alex Kennedy says there are no robes and no circle, square, triangle, etc. ...not sure what Masonry he's working, but many U.S. Degrees utilize robes or Albs, etc. and the three emblems mentioned figure into the Super-Excellent Master Degree of the York Rite. Also the Royal & Select Master Degrees include a subterranean vault (cave) and three "Grand Masters" "

All of those things, are products of massive illusination, that someone can produce as long as he/she is an expert on psycology and physiology.

Believe me, too many people had similar experiences, but none was true.

If you want to search for the truth, search somewhere else.......

Regards, a physicist.....

Originally posted by TN1

All of those things, are products of massive illusination, that someone can produce as long as he/she is an expert on psycology and physiology.

Believe me, too many people had similar experiences, but none was true.

If you want to search for the truth, search somewhere else.......

Regards, a physicist.....

You know not from whence you speak... I have been in this 'field' (metaphysics) for 20+ years and over the course of that time have 'seen' things well in advance of their manifestation. I assure you, it's not psychology or mass hypnosis. I have had hundreds of clients over the years for whom I have accurately 'seen' many things occuring in their lives - so I certainly don't need an A-OK from a physicist who can't take into account the other 'dimensions' and 'unseen' worlds.

Anyway, the power of prayer can suspend 'natural law' even.

You 3D types are missing the boat!

been on google and found the 'black cube' of saturn while looking at squares did u notice this in your dream? www.jordanmaxwell.com...

Originally posted by Mystic7
"Alex Kennedy says there are no robes and no circle, square, triangle, etc. ...not sure what Masonry he's working, but many U.S. Degrees utilize robes or Albs, etc. and the three emblems mentioned figure into the Super-Excellent Master Degree of the York Rite. Also the Royal & Select Master Degrees include a subterranean vault (cave) and three "Grand Masters" "

*sigh*. Alrighty then, we're going to play the old "My friend is a 32nd degree Mason" game, are we? Well, I'm also a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason, in the Valley of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I also hold the Degree of Royal Arch Mason in the York Rite. I am an officer in all three bodies, and also have done considerable work for my Grand Lodge. Also on my side is the fact that I post openly here, rather than sending anonymous U2Us back and forth.

As I've said before, it is possible that some Craft Lodges do things differently, but I've never seen robes used. Yes, some appendant bodies use robes. But this does not make their symbols Masonic, it makes them sybols of the appendant bodies. I would never call the double-headed eagle a "Masonic" symbol... it is a symbol of the Scottish Rite. Likewise, the geometric circle, square, and triangle are symbols of the Super Excellent Master degree in the Council of the Cryptic Rite, NOT in the Craft Lodge, i.e. these are symbols of the York Rite, not of Masonry proper.

You know, I've said over and over again that I respect the validity of your vision. Apparently, you only want to listen to those parts of my message that deny you aboslute control over what is and is not Masonic. If you want so desperately to have some special knowledge about Masonry, why don't you join a Masonic Lodge? Re: intuiting what is Masonic, what is Masonic is a solid fact. There is no need for intuiting in this sense. If I claimed to have "intuited" that a giant banana is the central symbol of Sufism, that wouldn't make it so. If I claimed to have "intuited" that Christians worship the Dodge Dart, and that they are all required to drive one if possible, that also wouldn't make it so. I'm sure I'm not the only Mason who considers it a little bit insulting that you have arrogated to yourself the capacity to tell us poor, non-vision-seeing people what is an is not Masonry.

As for Masonic arrogance: when it comes to discussing Masonry, I would assume even an arrogant Mason would have more reliable information than an arrogant non-Mason.

Here's a link to an interesting site I came across about how Masons began:

www.otherside.net...

Scroll down to the beginning paragraph "I. Masonry was founded by King Herod Agrippa with other 8 Jewish Founders".

Since I know nothing about Masons, I have no clue as to whether this is accurate or not - but a pretty surprising read.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by Mystic7
"Alex Kennedy says there are no robes and no circle, square, triangle, etc. ...not sure what Masonry he's working, but many U.S. Degrees utilize robes or Albs, etc. and the three emblems mentioned figure into the Super-Excellent Master Degree of the York Rite. Also the Royal & Select Master Degrees include a subterranean vault (cave) and three "Grand Masters" "

*sigh*. Alrighty then, we're going to play the old "My friend is a 32nd degree Mason" game, are we?

Actually, Alex, the U2U info I posted was in direct response to a U2U question I had sent an 'open poster' on this thread - because he stated he was a 32nd degree Mason - so I thought he might be able to answer my question. I only posted his response in the U2U reply (without his name) as I hadn't obtained 'permission' to post his name, OK?

You seem to have taken this topic in a personal direction - and I was simply asking for insight into (once again) the meaning of the triangle and yod. PsiEye provided a link to the circle, square, triangle thing. I supported that info from what I saw. But basically, who cares? It was an unusual and singular experience that has meaning for me personally and I was just trying to garner some insight into the experience based on the possible universality of the symbolism. I don't know anything about Masons, I don't really care about Freemasonry - and frankly, in Marian apparitions, even, it's been 'cautioned' against. I was simply curious.

If the above link in Cattlespy's post is any indication of how it all 'began' - then - yuck.

Originally posted by Cattlespy
Here's a link to an interesting site I came across about how Masons began:

www.otherside.net...

This has about as much evidence as the theory that Freemasonry was founded by 15 happy elves who only wanted to help people and give out free candy. I guess the two theories cancel each other out?

I remember in proverbs there's something about keeping evil company not being a good idea? This web-page links to something called "Intolerance International." I guess if you think that intolerance is a good thing, than you're all set.

Since I know nothing about Masons, I have no clue as to whether this is accurate or not - but a pretty surprising read.

OK, well, that's fair. But the problem is that there could be an infinite number of these fake theories... just because you find them interesting, it doesn't make them true. Let's try an analogy: if I were to post a theory about you that you were actually a child molester a long time ago (you weren't, I'm sure, but this is just for pruposes of argument), and, like this link, it had no proof whatsoever, wouldn't you feel a little hurt and upset?

Guess what? Masons have to deal with this every day. There is absolutely no shortage of links on the web about how we're awful, or child molesters, or reptiles, or how we worship Satan, etc.

Yesterday, I was giving someone a lift home from my defensive driving course. I do it because, as a Mason, I believe in helping out people who need help. Anyway, this guy saw the square & compasses on the back of my car. He asked if I was "into" Masonry, and I told him I am a Mason. He seemed surprised, and among the other things he asked was the question "What do you think about the idea that there are a lot of Satanists in Masonry?" I told him that all Masons must believe in a Supreme Being, but he said, "ah, yes, but they think of Lucifer as their Supreme Being." I told him that all Masons must take their obligation on a holy book, usually the Bible, and even this apparently didn't convince him. You see the problem? There's no evidence whatsoever that there has even been ONE Satanist Mason, much less many. But the fact that people keep spreading the theory around meant that even as I was giving someone a free ride back to his house, out of my way, some part of him secretly thought that myself and my Order were all Satanists!

Originally posted by Cattlespy
Here's a link to an interesting site I came across about how Masons began...
Since I know nothing about Masons, I have no clue as to whether this is accurate or not - but a pretty surprising read.

If you�re interested, please see several of the most recent threads on Freemasonry, where the history of Freemasonry is briefly traced. The Masonic institution began as a stonemason�s guild in medieval England, eventually evolving into the modern Fraternity.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Mystic7
I don't know anything about Masons, I don't really care about Freemasonry - and frankly, in Marian apparitions, even, it's been 'cautioned' against. I was simply curious.

If you don't care at all about Masonry, and want to believe that people should be "cautioned" against, then why were you so insistant that the symbols were Masonic?

If the above link in Cattlespy's post is any indication of how it all 'began' - then - yuck.

Well, fortunately, the link is NOT any indication of how Masonry began. But you see how easy it is to get turned around when there's no evidence to support you?

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by Mystic7
I don't know anything about Masons, I don't really care about Freemasonry - and frankly, in Marian apparitions, even, it's been 'cautioned' against. I was simply curious.

If you don't care at all about Masonry, and want to believe that people should be "cautioned" against, then why were you so insistant that the symbols were Masonic?

If the above link in Cattlespy's post is any indication of how it all 'began' - then - yuck.

Well, fortunately, the link is NOT any indication of how Masonry began. But you see how easy it is to get turned around when there's no evidence to support you?

I said there were some Marian messages 'cautioning' against Freemasonry. I am not a Catholic. I was only stating what I had read in the past and it caused me to 'wonder' what was so 'bad' about the Masons that Mary mentioned it in her messages during apparitions. Geez.

As for not caring about Masons - I had no idea/clue about them prior to that experience, during that experience and I had the triangle/yod vision before I even met the guy with the 14th degree Mason ring - as it startled me to see him wearing it - so when I asked what it was, he said simply he was a Mason.

Since I've had any number of visions (being clairvoyant), I found myself reflecting (but not investigating) on this particular one several times over the years - and now, here, just posed the question(s) out of curiosity.

I have read sites about the current 'beliefs' of Masons and all the good work they do - so I never said anything negative about Masons today - only if that link to the 'ancient beginnings' was any indication as to how it all began then 'yuck'.

Anyway, save your breath. Continue your posts, if you wish, for others who continue to post - but from here on out, I'm done.

Thanks to everyone for their input.
up:

Originally posted by Mystic7


Actually, Alex, the U2U info I posted was in direct response to a U2U question I had sent an 'open poster' on this thread - because he stated he was a 32nd degree Mason - so I thought he might be able to answer my question. I only posted his response in the U2U reply (without his name) as I hadn't obtained 'permission' to post his name, OK?

I'm sure you can post his name. If he's a freemason, he's certainly got nothing to hide. Posting a quote without relating your source makes it worthless.

Another amazing example of someone posting for some basic info - then getting railroaded (i.e. Alex) instead of informed.

Why do so many threads go in this direction? It turns into a bickering scenario instead of a viable sharing of info. It's unpleasant to see and worse to read.

That said - I found Mystic7's experience very interesting to read. Being clairvoyant myself, I know how sometimes we 'see' things that we have limited understanding of. Maybe that's the 'key' however - visions that inspire us to search for the answers.. which it seems Mystic7 was trying to do... until *some* people turned cranky and uppity on him/her. (?)

I'd still like to learn what all those symbols mean, myself

Another example of me trying to make a fairly simple point (the symbols in the dream were not Masonic) and being labelled as... well, let's see... what was I labelled as?

i) Arrogant
ii) not knowing what I'm talking about
iii) a liar
iv) a "railroader."

All that because I said that the symbols in the vision were not Masonic. Interesting that I also said I did not argue at all with the validity of the vision, merely with it's characterisation as "Masonic."

What's the lesson here today, boys and girls? If someone asserts something that is valid, but is sprinkled with mistakes or mistruths, don't you dare criticise the mistakes! Why, that would make you an arrogant railroader! The only fair way to have a discussion is to accept everything your interlocutor says, regardless of its provable falsity!

I as a former student of the Moorish Science Temple and current student of law, esoteric, natural sciences, kabballah, etc, have known and studied and travelled with members of many different secret societies. Especially those in masonic circles. To be fair the vision may not represent symbols of freemasonry. But it has been shown that what one mason is taught and how one lodge may go about things a certain way, can be different to another mason. I have seen masons argue or discuss, whichever you choose, about symbols, rituals, what is correct or incorrect. So even though some of you here in the craft may see things as concrete, there are others in your craft who contradict things that youmay state here. We discussed this at length in the Masons not a secret society post. Let us all keep an open mind initiated or not whatever you belong to or practice. We unfold as our base of knowledge does and no knowledge is complete because it is infinite in boundaries.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Let us all keep an open mind initiated or not whatever you belong to or practice. We unfold as our base of knowledge does and no knowledge is complete because it is infinite in boundaries.

MOOR45, I completely understand where you're coming from. Look, I'm not opposed to people seeking their religious or spiritual path any way they please, as long as it's not depraved in the sense of disobeying human laws or hurting people.

But... there are some things that are true, and some things that are false. We can't just say anything we want and assume it's true. If I come on this board and say, "I'm a Muslim, but I refuse to believe that Mohammed was a prophet, and I refuse to believe anything he said." Well... no matter how much I say it, I'm not really a Muslim, am I? That wouldn't make me a bad person, and it wouldn't make my philosophical or theological ideas a priori incorrect... but I still wouldn't be a Muslim.

Similarly, if someone comes on this website and says "I know all about Freemasonry! I had this vision where guys in speedos danced around a giant golden penguin statue. Also, in the vision I saw that you can only be a Freemason if you say the word 'widdle' three times fast!" Well, now, I'm not going to deny someone the right to dance in a speedo around a giant gold penguin in the privacy of their own home or temple; and I certainly have no objection to people saying "widdle," even if they do so on the street. And if doing those things brings you closer to the Lord of Life, then three cheers from me to you! But it's not Freemasonry. Freemasonry is not the only route to understanding, but it is its own route, with its own meaning... if you try to make it into something it's not, you're not only debasing it, but also debasing your ideas by presenting them as Masonic when in fact they come from another source.

I understand you completely. But that is hellified funny what you said about your "visions"! This is logical, but I would say you can be a Muslim and not believe Mohammed was a prophet. It has proven that Mohammed did not "invent" or bring Islam first to the world. Many Muslims and Moslems were taught different. Islam's tenets have been around before Mohammed. He just brought it to the modern world in the middle east. I would still have to call you a Moslem brother. There were other prophets or messengers before Jesus who taught the same values and were crucified in the same manner before Jesus arrived. Yet many christians will swear heaven and earth he was that he was the only true prophet. They are wrong beyond description. I see your point though. Dreams are untouched potential that many have not unlocked but it cannot be certified as proof in an argument unless something from it is made manifest in the physical sense. But Psychic, your dream is very interesting.

[edit on 6/30/2004 by MOOR45]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
"I know all about Freemasonry! I had this vision where guys in speedos danced around a giant golden penguin statue.

Have you visited my Lodge?


The beauty of symbols are that they can be given many different interpretations. Take a look at every single symbol out there and you can give it a twist.
A symbol is something that represents something by association. It's so easy to associate a symbol with anything at all that without fully understanding it's context, you can be led completely down the wrong track.

In my opinion, if you're going to use a symbol it has to be coupled with logic. Otherwise it is just a shape or form with no meaning whatsoever.

Hey all you Freemasons! Get a load of *this* webpage:

www.missionislam.com...

Turns out Freemasons are being denounced by Islamists