Obama admin wants to track you on the internet now.

reply to post by Wolfenz


Oh, I know that it is been going on for awhile, hell since the internet has been up and running they have been using it.

Thanks for all the information.

reply to post by P-M-H


I just can't stress enough that this will NOT stop crime - neither "ours" nor theirs. The FBI recently spent nearly a year trying to decrypt "evidence" from a hard drive provided by a foreign (South American) government for use against a known criminal. The net result was an admission of defeat, and the return, unbroken, of the had drive.

The encryption in that case was accomplished with a free program, downloadable by any one, any where, from the internet. Didn't cost the bad guy a dime to protect his secrets, and they're STILL being protected, despite government efforts.

No, this isn't about "fighting crime" at all. The government, of all people, already know they've lost that game before it even starts. The only people affected will be the "law abiding", who THINK they have nothing to hide. They'll find out differently when cases begin to be made out of thin air and bailing wire against them because they have a "peculiar" political viewpoint (which definition changes according to who is the power of the moment).

What about when the definition of what constitutes a "crime" changes? How many of you thought, just 10 years ago or less, that quoting from the US Constitution would gain you the scrutiny of governmental entities who are ostensibly sworn to uphold and protect that SAME Constitution?

No, really, this isn't about "crime", as currently perceived, at all. Criminals won't care. They never have. Thy already have their bases covered.

It's only going to matter to the poor schmucks left holding the bag in a holding cell, awaiting processing for things that never were supposed to be criminal in a free society.

Bush did it, it was ok.

A stinkin' Democrat is doing it and it's just plain wrong!

GRRRRR not the liberals spying on us!

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


No, you did not get me mad, although I do think you got a few other posters mad.

Yes, you're trying to wake everyone up by being a little politically incorrect, but judging by the responses, it's not working very well. Some people might respond to fear-mongering, but those are not the people who will change things and help achieve any common goal, except for more fear. Even if he is telling the truth, people don't want to listen to the extremist hobo shouting "crazy" things. So if I were you, I'd change my tactics to get a point across.

But that's just one humble girl's opinion.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
Bush did it, it was ok.

A stinkin' Democrat is doing it and it's just plain wrong.

No anyone doing it is wrong.

Please, stop looking at everything with partisan perspective.

The agencies seeking these ultimate powers really don't give a damn if you are democrat or republican. Only that you support their quest for new powers... By the way, both sides of our political divide are, and always have been equally influenced and completely corrupted, you should expect no more or less from the Obama administration.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
Bush did it, it was ok.

A stinkin' Democrat is doing it and it's just plain wrong!

GRRRRR not the liberals spying on us!

Congratulations! You win today's "Partisan Patsy" award!

All these folks here saying "you know, this bites! It always has and always will bite - no matter who or what is behind it." - and you somehow got THAT out of it? Do you see some sort of inherent danger in folks finding common ground, and agreeing on something?

I can name another group who thinks they see that same danger... and they are rightfully scared spitless of it. IF Americans can manage to get together on ONE issue, just ONE, and talk coherently long enough to realize there might be others, too, that they may not be so far apart on, the entire lot of 'em might be out of a job - AND out of their power! Yeah, you're damn right they're spooked.

"Divide and conquer" only works for as long as you can perpetuate the divide.

Tell me, what shade of yellow ARE political party-colored spectacles?

Well! looks like the FBI is in on this new crackdown too, independent of the White House, but with much the same proposal. This article goes into the encryption end of it more than the wiretap end, but with some overlap. The FBI is after building back doors into encryption technology once again. There are a number of problems with that approach, not the least of which is it makes previously near impervious systems vulnerable to crackers (and not just the government variety)., the government has been unable to demonstrate any sort of problem they've had with encryption, and the likelihood that it will force some firms out of business.

FBI Backdoors

reply to post by nenothtu


Interesting, since the FBI is so rife with fraud and corruption it makes perfect sense for them to have built in backdoors to as many encryption methods as possible... Great for their business, should make extortion schemes much easier. Of course then the FBI will have the most secure electronic communications and data sharing system on earth, everyone else will be an open book. Masters of the digital universe... All your ones and zeros belong to them.

It is comical actually, when anything they attempt to do to collect, track/trace, and/or stop the flow of covert communications can be easily circumvented.

Even more funny when it is happening RIGHT NOW inside of their own secure network, right under their noses!

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

I support this law and I don't understand how you couldn't.

Probably because anything you say can be taken out of context, whether that be here on ATS, or in the canteen at work - which is how somebody got arrested and harrassed by the police during the pope's visit to the UK.

Every time somebody uses free speech to criticise the govt. or the banks they would be risking being branded a criminal or terrorist, which is what happens in fascist states.

Originally posted by john124
reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

 

I support this law and I don't understand how you couldn't.

Probably because anything you say can be taken out of context, whether that be here on ATS, or in the canteen at work - which is how somebody got arrested and harrassed by the police during the pope's visit to the UK.

Every time somebody uses free speech to criticise the govt. or the banks they would be risking being branded a criminal or terrorist, which is what happens in fascist states.

How true how true. What would you do if it was already happening here?

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
Hmmm, wonder when the Obamabots are going to wake up from their messiah induced euphoria?

Yeah, if that's your idea of a useful way of communicating, i don't see much reason to read beyond.

Second line reserved for constructive dialogue.

this country has definitely been brainwashed and neutered
2nd

reply to post by maybereal11

Over the past 10 years 300,000 people have died in this nation due to traffic fatalities.
Over the past 10 years 3,000 people have died in this nation due to terrorism.

Transportation...take away our cars and planes?

Hardly, the point I am making is that we have spent by many estimates over $1 trillion in this "war on terror" that is supposedly about making us safer.

We have guide-by-wire technology that can auto-drive cars and sensor technology to tell how fast the car in front of us is going. We have the technology to dramatically lower the death rates caused by traffic fatalities and instead we are spending our money on a problem that has killed 100x less people over the last 10 years.

Where are our priorities? Why isn't this being brought up in the mass media?

Why are you willing to give up your personal power as an individual to the government, a large entity that carries out an incredible number of actions in secret?

I don't see how allowing the government to monitor the internet the same way it does with phone lines...by obtaining a warrant for individual survelience when there is evidence of criminal activity is giving up any personal power.

Confused by what you are saying.

If they were going to do it in secret, we wouldn't be reading about this bill.

If you want to criticize secret survelience an activity, go for it. By all means the government should never be allowed to monitor folks in an indiscriminate manner, but terrorists and pedophiles? When it is "warranted"...yes please.

Numerous judges and historical figures have supported the protection and necessity of anonymous speech in order to have freedom of speech. This bill is talking about forcing programs like TOR to put in a backdoor so the government can see what you are communicating and to whom. This destroys anonymous speech.

It is always possible for law enforcement to go to a person's residence and locally install software to enable spying. It is obviously not as easy to carry out and will reduce the number of people spied upon but do we really want to live in a society where people have no privacy? Terrorism in comparison to other problems is a minor one. It is a definite one but is a minor one and one that should not get us to forkover our rights or deplete the treasury.

The victims of pedophiles would be best protected if they had a surefire means to escape the environment of the pedophile and having all their basic necessities provided for in their new home.

How does monitoring the communications of a pedophile assist in his prosecution if we need a warrant supported by the victim's Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized as per the 4th Amendment?

Everything else here is reaching extrapolation, hyperbole and fiction....none of which is in this bill.

My extrapolation is based on paying attention to the recent legislative agenda regarding the internet.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that so many bills are being proposed in the last couple years regarding the internet:

Internet cutoff switches.
Cybersecurity measures to protect critical infrastructure.
NSA unauthorized warrantless eavesdropping of major telco switch rooms.

Now bills to ban anonymous speech on the internet by calling for fines and other penalties for software makers who create communications tools for use over the internet if they don't have backdoors for law enforcement to read the plain text translation of anonymous encrypted communications.

The government is by definition run by powerful people. Powerful people tend to want one thing more than all else, more power. Knowledge is power. Knowing everything about everyone does give one power over everyone. It is almost mathematical in its simplicity. Simple words with simple meanings, when put together show simple truths.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


True enough!

The problems with it only begin when one realizes that the US isn't in control of the entire world, and there are several countries with no restrictions where one will likely be able to get encryption tech without the bothersome back doors.

Eventually, the US will likely go the way of the UK, where encryption is legal, but forgetting a password can win one a 2 year all expense paid vacation in a government containment facility. Luckily, there's software available for the taking that fixes that little problem, so one can be secure AND give up a dummy password to the rubber hose squad.

Nothing to see here, officer. Just move along...

I'm guessing that when this goes into effect, FBI computers will show a spike hitting foreign servers... and some of the feebies will be seeking out those dummy password fixes as well...

Ah, the miracles of modern technology!

Edit to add: My personal philosophy is that if one is truly authorized to view a file, one will of course already HAVE the password thereto. Otherwise, my stuff is "classified", and whosoever has not the password clearly doesn't rate at that classification level. Sucks to be them, but that's just how it is. Yes, as a matter of fact I AM willing to push it all the way to the firewall if they come and want to play. Can't have government types stealing the ideas for my next blockbuster novel, or Aunt Sadie's Secret Coconut Creme Pie recipe...

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

You don't want this protection? So if your child or a child you know was kidnapped and taken to eastern europe and sexually assaulted and then murdered and it all could have been prevented if they were aloud to view some child traffickers email and use it in court, you wouldn't want it?

You're argument is invalid and a fallacy.

Appeal to Fear

The Appeal to Fear is a fallacy with the following pattern:

1. Y is presented (a claim that is intended to produce fear).
2. Therefore claim X is true (a claim that is generally, but need not be, related to Y in some manner).

This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because creating fear in people does not constitute evidence for a claim.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


I am continually shocked at the sheer number of individuals who continue to either consciously or unconsciously swallow the left/right paradigm.

A true leftist would want a central government, and even see the benefit of it, but only so far as to protect the common welfare of the citizen regarding their physiological state of being,
A true leftist sees the benefits of a central government, but the even a hard core leftist sees that the government's lone goal should be creating an infrastructure that yields success.


So the purpose of society to a leftist is to ........ Create a tangible, physical infrastructure that leads to successive endeavors for all those in the society.

We need no codes, no statutes, and no legislated rights, but only assistance and guidance in order for the people to achieve a common goal. This function of society should be designed to only occur when it is needed,.

And a true right-est believes that government is completely unnecessary. Enough said.

Stop believing the hype.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


I could of sworn to God that this was a part of a George bush proposal on surveillance in his presidency and that Obama decided to stay with it as a good idea but this was happening wayyyy , before Obama.

Old news, but still very good and informative news:

en.wikipedia.org...

Carnivore was a system implemented by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that was designed to monitor email and electronic communications. It used a customizable packet sniffer that can monitor all of a target user's Internet traffic. Carnivore was implemented during the Clinton administration with the approval of the Attorney General.

The Carnivore program was canceled, and replaced with improved commercial software such as NarusInsight.[2]

which brings me to this little article, posted 17 hours ago - I just happened to see it mentioned in today's newspaper, of all things:

but here's a link to a good article about it over @ The Guardian


FBI agents caught cheating on key exam

The FBI is responsible for, among other things, tackling fraud and corrupt practices in the public sector.

However, it seems the US federal agency may have its own problems with duplicity, after an investigation found that "a significant number of FBI employees engaged in some form of improper conduct or cheating" when obliged to sit a key exam.

Agents from the FBI – motto "Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity" – had to take the 90-minute assessment to prove they had understood guidelines on how to conduct terrorism investigations.

Suspicion was raised, however, when more than 200 employees completed the exam in less than 20 minutes.

The US justice department's subsequent investigation, despite being only "limited" in scale, found that 22 employees had employed dishonest means – ranging from conferring with others, using answer sheets, or taking advantage of a computer programming flaw to reveal the answers.

Although the number found to have cheated is small compared with the 20,000 FBI staff who took the test, the inspector general's office found that "the extent of the cheating related to this test was greater than the cases we detailed in this report".

it's pretty bad - if not kinda scary - when the people that are supposed to be protecting us are cheating on their exams...

it's also kinda strange - and kinda scary - that "NarusInsight" -- the NEW Carnivore -- is Certified by the Telecommunication Engineering Center (TEC) in India.. in other words India basically has the ability to watch ALL of the United States' (and most likely the rest of the ENTIRE PLANET's internet)..

anyone see the movies Eagle Eye
or The Echelon Conspiracy

If not I reccomend checking them out.