Economic Manipulation and how it leads to Religious Extremism

This is one of my favorite quotes.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. ~ Denis Diderot

Religon and government are in cahoots.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Are they making us fools while extolling we could be heros? Do we become the lackeys and pawns in some hidden agenda, by partnering and believing in those who potentially might have another one, simply because they are telling us in whole or in part, what we want to hear?

Thats the big question.

Oh and by the way, the thread is aimed at the extremists in all three sects and not just any one in particular.

Rest assured that I will probably never tell anyone what they want to hear. And yes flattery should send up a red flag.

As far as the three sects thing as I have said in another of youre threads the radical muslims have been so busy for so long that it is realy hard to fit the others into the same group. The catalyst that has driven the muslim killing bent into the red just isnt there in the others.

reply to post by zorgon

I am sure everyone by now understands that the god of isreal, the god of the Christians and the god of Islam is all the SAME god... it is merely man's interpretation that makes the split... and because of those interpretations, we have 2000 years of religious war and umpteen thousand factions, some fanatical in nature

Amazingly and forgive me because I am not trying to single out any one religion more than another, but there are many Christians who are completely either ignorant of and or in denial that all three sects worship the same God.

Muslims really don't suffer that same belief because Jesus is their second most important prophet, yet many Christians are oblivious to this, while some just feel based on what sources they turn to, to define Islam that it is not the same God.

That's how right you are in about it being man's interpretation.

Take away religion now... suddenly and you will have anarchy... because that fear of god still keeps most people from doing as they will...

The concept of original sin, that we are all born inherently flawed and potentially evil is a powerful central theme, that in my humble opinion plays expertly on the duality of the human mind and personality.

Self doubt in one's action becomes all the more pronounced when your endeavors and thoughts become measured against the "Sin Yardstick".

I agree with you if a knee jerk reaction or majority led to the outlawing of religion it will still be practiced, which is why I worry that should the sects fail to learn how to get along, that ultimate knee jerk reaction might be the wholesale extermination of any and all who are religious.

With a forced depopulation weighing on many people's minds, just who the powers that be decide to get rid of and why might end up be something that comes to really threaten the religious much more so than their own intra-sect rivalries.

Perhaps this is the reason the PTB fear telling us the 'truth' about the aliens? Afterall since all the various gods in history are not of this Earth, are they not true ET in the definition of the term extra Terrestrial - not of this earth?

Though it is both so subtle and common place most people don't fully recognize it or appreciate how pervasive it is, but religion is woven into every aspect of our life.

Politicians swear oaths on Bibles, money is emblazoned with In God We Trust, many of our laws date back the the Judean Community in Egypt, with Talmudic and Cannonical Laws thrown in.

Every aspect of our life has religion in it as a form of glue and legitimatizer that really would upset the apple cart if an alien race could prove that our concepts of God were incomplete or false.

Some great observations as always Zorgon, so nice to see you back on ATS and posting.

You were missed my many members my friend.

Thanks for sharing.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I have to ask if you have been reading more of my threads than I originally thought.

The evidence has been building towards complete financial manipulation of our political system through stealing the entire Treasury, something a nation, Government, and the politicians only do right before they're about to royally screw the country.

When those in power know the system better than the people it becomes easier to manipulate releasing funds.

The problem comes indeed from the proverbial bread and circuses and the ignorant populace.

Political Collusion of a President and Congress in Collapsing America, The Fall of the New Rome

People are ignorant, at least the standard citizen, of the "left-wing" verses "right-wing" paradigm.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9a413f6e7db6.jpg[/atsimg]

They point to the opposite political party that they are not affiliated with by blaming the other side.

Meanwhile those on the opposite side are doing the same thing and pointing back claiming rightful indignation.

And both sides are wrong, as well as both sides are right, they are in fact both to blame but through ignorance.

Not necessarily complict, collusive, and conspiratorial behaviors, unless they are of course politicians, religious organizations, or within the system of control itself, meaning those holding the purse strings of the citizens taxes, one only need to look to the bankers for those evidenciary papertrails through high-minded ideals and double-speak.

The Old Shell Game


When a populace is taught, not to think, but to recite via rote, an indoctrinated belief system, history, and religion we are merely doomed to repeat history, because of the lack of desire in catching those who are pulling the wool over our eyes. Or leading the flock astray if you will, then becoming through our own lack of ability to lead ourselves, becoming sheeple. But only if we do not learn how to think, something I am eternally grateful to my parents for and as well my surroundings during my lifetime in teaching me how to think, how to see through the guises of control which are nothing but an illusion of control. Sold on the ability of those in power to actually protect us, through con-jobs, limiting our ability to actually control things through using high-minded and idealistic sounding euphemisms and candy-coated crap these people sell a lie as the truth so as to better be able to manipulate more funds at a later date.

How to Start Your Own Secret Society

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/79804fce98c0.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

Rejected by the Freemasons? Not bright enough for the Illuminati? Burnt by the Hell Fire Club? No friends in high places to get you into the Bilderberg or the Bohemian Grove? Feeling isolated and powerless? Fear not. There is an answer...Why not start your own secret society to add an air of mystery to your life and instantly alter the way you are perceived by family, friends and society at large. Learn the secrets of how to really influence people in business and politics by creating your own elitist fraternity. Discover the basic requirements for creating a clandestine sister or brotherhood with the ability to control, govern and influence events at the local or global level. Develop your own secret knowledge and hidden agenda while you plot to overthrow the powers that be through revolution and political or religious intrigue. Pierre Plantard and the Priory of Sion failed but you can avoid making the same mistakes they did by understanding what it really takes to maintain and develop a secret society. This book will show you all the requirements needed from choosing regalia to setting up a lodge, from electing a grand master to illustrating basic initiation ceremonies. It will also guide you on how to take historical events, great works of art and famous names to mould them into your desires for global domination.

It does start with religion to a large extent, this the breeding ground, the sheep pens, and the formulating of the con.

It extends through this to those vile and sanctimonius Secret Societies claiming benevolence yet using lies.

The sales tactics are often more than some cheap suited con man in a used car lot but the lies are all the same.

Playing up to your vanity, suggesting more intelligence to someone to blind them, and through this setting the stage.

Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/95ca72c69916.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

From 007 to 2001, from Dealey Plaza to the Apollo Moon Flight, from the barrel of a Bulldog .44 to the corridors of the pyramids of Sirius; from the secret symbolism of Jack the Ripper to the public symbolism of the first atomic bomb blast, this work illuminates the crimes and command ideology of the masonic Cryptocracy, where ground zero meets the zero hour in a bestial crucible of ritual murder, human alchemy and demonic invasion. Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare takes the reader to the core of a cosmic cryptogram, a dark Oz where the ancient fables become modern memes for the psychological contagion and devastation of humanity, and where the stratagem the author terms "Revelation of the Method" becomes the key to the finale of the mysteries of the ages.

The end goal of course is not just to manipulate you out of your money but to make you willingly give it up.

Noam Chomsky called in Manufactured Consent and I just call it a con-job by con-men not worth the carbon they exhale.

Nothing but putting out more hot air than our alleged vehicles do to raise the lies of Global Warming and taxes.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Ideally we should be able to celebrate our differences, even if you are a White Anglo Saxon Protestant I like to think most still enjoy a good plate of Curry, some Chinese Take Out, a Mexican Taco, and a dish of Lasagna from time to time.

Oh ya for sure, though I am vegetarian and not white anglo saxon I eat every cuisine.
Indian, chinese, vietnamese(slightly better than chinese imo), mexican, western, japanese, italian, indo-chinese(very good) and everything else.
Love every culture from american, to canadian to ME to dying languages like luxembourgish.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Here is another correlation between opium and religion, both are nearly impossible to give up for people who are addicted to them.

Thanks for sharing my friend.

True, once you are wired you are wired.
However when I was young I was very religious. I had met my grandmother at I don't remember around 14 and when she left she passed away a few months later. I then had a dream where she told me to read the Gita, and in my dream I said ok and went to the library at my school and found the book.

In real life the book was in the exact same place and it was the first time I heard about the Gita.
I know that seems unreal and I agree but I swear that's what happened.

After reading the book I became quite religious, I can say that I felt that euphoria.
I used to call it being happy and being at peace and now yes I would call it a form of euphoria perhaps.

I'm no longer religious though, I was at a young age for perhaps 3yrs or so, and now I am an agnostic.
I am still quite spiritual and consider myself very interesting in philosophy, however I am an agnostic.

Don't mean to derail the thread but I though I should add that

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

I have to ask if you have been reading more of my threads than I originally thought.

The evidence has been building towards complete financial manipulation of our political system through stealing the entire Treasury, something a nation, Government, and the politicians only do right before they're about to royally screw the country.

Actually I read all your threads my wise and regal Spartan friend, but alas sometimes my mere presence on a thread can lead to the kind of controversy that can detract from the topic itself, so I try to exercise discretion in that regard at times, with just a star and a flag and no comment, when I know the original poster has it all well in hand.

They say the last act of any government is to loot the treasury and we do really have to consider that as we stand 13 trillion dollars in debt and growing, with a fair portion of that having gone to bailing out the banks, auto makers, and insurance companies, frequently owned by the richest people in the world.

Keeping an atmosphere of fear while mixing in bellows of righteousness go along way at times in keeping the people trusting enough to not throw the lot of them in jail or off to the gallows!

As always a very well thought out reply, thanks for sharing my friend.

I never forget that the type of person who becomes swept up within a charismatic movement (like Evangelical Christianity) is the same type of person who gets swept up in most other things. Like soap operas and workplace romances and neighbor feuds and conspiracy theories.

These are emotion-driven personalities, and the only difference between these folks (the charismatically religious) and cokeheads, is a core fear that was instilled in them, at an early age. They need the drama and the excitement, but they can't handle the danger, and so they gather around the robed legs of the risen lord and get goosebumps over the overwhelming adventure of being at the center of the most epic battle of all time. All the while, they honestly believe that they're invulnerable to the possibility of getting creamed in the cross-fire. It's magical thinking, but it's magical thinking that's being employed to get the thrill buzz that their frightened sensibilities could never handle if they were to find themselves left in the wide open to fend for themselves.

Then, you have the folks who can sense this about these people, and who offer them the assurances that they can safely play Armageddon all they want as long as they pay the ticket prices. It's a co-dependent sort of symbiotic relationship, and as long as we keep them away from the steering wheel, we'll be okay.

The term used for both groups is Authoritarian, with the thrill junkies as followers and the hero-archetypical warrior protectors as the leaders. GW Bush and his cabal really knew how to stage these dramas, and we're seeing that Glenn Beck's recognizing the need for that hero-archetype in America's drama-junkie culture. So far, he's been the one to fill that void, but I get the feeling that Newt is positioning himself, now to take the political end of that requirement.

If these folks would simply go to church and love their Jesus, then we'd be okay, but they always seem to need a Jim Jones to fall in love with, and that's where stuff starts spinning out for the rest of us.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

Actually I read all your threads my wise and regal Spartan friend, but alas sometimes my mere presence on a thread can lead to the kind of controversy that can detract from the topic itself, so I try to exercise discretion in that regard at times, with just a star and a flag and no comment, when I know the original poster has it all well in hand.

They say the last act of any government is to loot the treasury and we do really have to consider that as we stand 13 trillion dollars in debt and growing, with a fair portion of that having gone to bailing out the banks, auto makers, and insurance companies, frequently owned by the richest people in the world.

Keeping an atmosphere of fear while mixing in bellows of righteousness go along way at times in keeping the people trusting enough to not throw the lot of them in jail or off to the gallows!

As always a very well thought out reply, thanks for sharing my friend.

Nonsense.

Your presence adds to my threads, it brings with it but a welcome respite, and fresh eyes and a sharp tongue.

Discretion may be a better part of valor, valor is not what is needed, when exposing these lies from Washington D.C.

Scruples, experience, and the moral fortitude is what is needed, something you have shown well throughout your tenure.

Yes, the Bailout, a nice euphemism for shaking the piggy bank, before smashing it over our heads taking our retirement.

How Dare You Mr. President and Congress...

Not one party over another doing it, but both, acting in symmetry, swaying back and forth like a cobra hypnotizing.

They prey on those they devour through draining them like Kaa in the Jungle Book for Shere Khan.

Predator and prey locked into the harmony of life, as they see it, those slain through ignorance, by those robbing them.

Charles B. Rangel : Universal National Service Act, Being Investigated By An Ethics Committee,...

Promising things which harken to Ancient Rome they put Christians before the lions as in the Flavian Amphitheatre.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/001270952ad2.jpg[/atsimg]

And through this they indoctrine people into submission through lies added to by Hollywood to subvert our wills.

Hoist the Colors


By pushing these common things they usher in both our rope to hang ourselves as well as the False-Flag Operation.

Hoist the Flag : False Flags, Agent Provocateurs, and Black Box Operations

The waters may seem calm but the corporate pirates in corporations are circling like sharks around the populace.

Watching for the weak, the willing, and the easily weaned towards giving up control over their own destinies.

And when this happens it merely leads to a declaration of Martial Law and our Constitution being shredded.

National Emergency Act : Know Your Law, When Law Is Suspended, and You May Be Arrested

Originally posted by VAPatriot
This is one of my favorite quotes.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. ~ Denis Diderot

Religon and government are in cahoots.

It's a very note worthy quote to be sure.

Both God and King demand submission often by one evoking the other. Without our monotheistic concepts of God there would be no divine right of Kings or nations under God that ultimately place State on a similiar yet slightly inferior level and position with God.

Each seem to be entirely dependent upon the other.

Thanks for sharing the fantastic quote.

S&F for you good sir. in William James Durant book X. Rousseau and Revolution (1967) on page 902 it says that in 1787 Louis xvI issued a edict allowing non-Catholic persons to practice religious ceremony's in their private homes .It also recognized their marriages as lawful . It didn't change the law that said you had to be Catholic to be in public office His bio en.wikipedia.org... (November 5, 1885 – November 7, 1981) was a prolific American writer, historian, and philosopher. He is best known for The Story of Civilization, 11 volumes written in collaboration with his wife Ariel In a reply to me from another ATS member as to a enqurie I had ,part of his responce was ."I can make some comments on the cultural background of Revivalism, which is what he's talking about. Back in the eighteenth century, in Europe, "intellect" and "emotion" were starting to part company with each other. What historians call "the Enlightenment" had a focus on intellect at the expense of emotion. In reaction against that, you get what historians call "the Romantic movement", which is really an attempt to re-focus on emotion- if necessary, at the expense of intellect. This leads to many things. It leads to Romantic poetry and music. It leads to the kind of nationalist enthiusiasm which came out of the French Revolution. And there's also religious emotion, so you can see Wesley's movement as part of that. All the features that people later called "charismatic" could sometimes be found at Wesley's meetings.

I understand the Evangelical Revival first arrived in the States in the more intellectual, Calvinist. form of Jonathan Edwards. So "Revivalism" would be the belated arrival there of the more emotional form of Revival. I've got a copy of a fascinating book called "The small sects of America"-by Elmer T Clarke (the 1937 edition, so I would be surprised if it's still in print). This tells me about the Cane Ridge, Kentucky, revival of 1799, "one of the most amazing religious outbreaks in American history". Thousands camped on the ground; many reacted with frenzy. The revival then spread like a forest fire through Kentucky, Tennessee, and adjoining states, and the book says that this type of revivalism typed the religious life of the Middle West for the following fifty years.

If you're living in America, you won't realise just how much religious life and diversity is restrained by the existence of an Established Church, which has already got the whole country divided up into an organised structure. American-style Revival could hardly have taken off in England. Even the Methodists found it hard going. But in America the country wasn't divided up in that way, and in addition people were continually moving into completely new territories. That created the kind of freedom which made it possible for Revivalism to expand, and so it did expand."

I wish I could add something to the above but I fail .One could take that ,Maybe Religion was created to control the heard , But being part of a flock is not so bad . peace ps.once again your subject and the many ATS comments
are going to be a nice read .thanks proto

Proto my friend, another wonderful thread.

You know I'm starting to think you have something against organized religion......

On topic, I agree with you. Money has always been used as a mechanism to push people into the most extreme mindsets possible.

They go hand in hand, and are almost identical, but as you point out, religion, is free. That is until you join one.

We've seen this countless times throughout history, where the lack of resources for the general population has led to the established powers needing to "feed" them with entertainment. Usually of a grotesque kind, that under normal economic conditions would NEVER be approved by the general population.

I see this as a growing trend in our current society. Further changes in the socio-economic landscape will only makes things worse. Which is the point of the whole process from a PTB standpoint.

In any case, thanks for waking some of us up to these concepts, too many people fail to see the bigger picture that lies above the bickering and sensationalist arguments.

~Keeper

reply to post by the2ofusr1


You are so right about the power of romance and remotion. I wonder how many a young man has marched off to war and death seeing the romance in it, the romance of fighting for God, Country and King.

One of the things that remains so intriquing to me in regards to religion is how powerful of an advertising message it can be, where it can be used to do the opposite of what it is claiming to do.

We must kill or convert the blood thirsty savages for their own benefit. Is better than to leave them suffering without the knowledge of and the relationship with a truly loving God.

Amazingly this is how some come to see war is peace, hate is love, black is white.

Early America is a very interesting time as so many different factions would like to lay a romantic claim to having founded the nation, yet many over look the tug of war between Masons and Rosecrucian Order members, and the Christians in obtaining power, and how the original 13 colonies them selves were often meant to be the domain of different denominations.

That 1937 book you refer to, sure sounds as if it would be an informative and fascinating read.

Just as your reply to this thread has been.

Thanks so much my friend, for joining in and sharing.

reply to post by NorEaster

I never forget that the type of person who becomes swept up within a charismatic movement (like Evangelical Christianity) is the same type of person who gets swept up in most other things. Like soap operas and workplace romances and neighbor feuds and conspiracy theories.

An outstanding and very thoughtful well written post my friend.

The powers that be know the average person loves pagentry spectacle and drama. Winning their hearts is sometimes just simply a matter of entertaining some of their 5 senses.

Once a person gets caught up in the emotion of it all, and is thinking emotionally they do tend to shut down to the notion of a more detached intellectual process of really examinging and debating the pros and cons of an issue.

Then, you have the folks who can sense this about these people, and who offer them the assurances that they can safely play Armageddon all they want as long as they pay the ticket prices. It's a co-dependent sort of symbiotic relationship, and as long as we keep them away from the steering wheel, we'll be okay.

One of my concerns is not just keeping them away from the wheel, but getting people to realize that yes, we are right now every day making history at the pivitol cross roads of a unique period of time.

For all the talk of some regarding how they are sure this is a sign of prophecy and that is a sign of prophecy, I don't really think it occurs to them, even though they want it to be real, that not only is it real, but they themselves are taking a part in making it a self fulfilling prophecy and life comes with no reset button.

I some times think the disconnect brought on by the advent of the Internet has made it harder for people to seperate fact from fiction, and fiction from fact.

Excellent post my friend, thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by Aquarius1
reply to post by justadood

 

to make a distinction, i would say "Spirituality" is a lot less corrupt, because it is merely about worship. As soon as it becomes an organized 'group' it becomes political and can be manipulated along all sorts of fault lines.

I don't agree that spirituality is about worship at all, I consider myself a spiritual person and I worship no one or anything. Now some want to make spiritually another religion and that is not what it is in opinion.

No one can corrupt spirituality except yourself, it is not a following of others, it's going into yourself and finding your own truth.

edit on 15-9-2010 by Aquarius1 because: (no reason given)

without getting too off-topic, allow me to clarify. By defining 'spirituality' (as opposed to Religion) as 'only worship', i was probably being lazy and using a sort of short-hand. By 'worship' all I mean is whatever recognition of the 'divine' or whathaveyou that the individual goes through in their life. I say this as a counter-balance to the idea of organized Religion and 'the Church' as a political entity.

worship as i am using it is not necessarily towards a specific entity, but merely towards 'creation' or whatever you define it as. ITs probably a lazy, incorrect use of the term on my part.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by justadood

 

I'm not so sure. Religion is 'organized' and anything that is organized can become political. This is why the Western tradition of European politics has made such an attempt to remove the Church from the Sate. Because the Church has run the state for so long.

I think by and large what many of the United States founders felt was that both tend to corrupt one another. Politicians corrupt the church by equating their ambitions with ones God would approve of when just as often or not God might not. While church's looking for political power will give it to a politician in a kind of quid pro quo were each in turn does each a favor that may not be good for the whole, or even them in the short or the long run.

While they remain seperate in most Western Republics it's a thin line that separates to two with people on each side of it often straddling or stepping over that line.

Some would say it's a powerful temptation for both.

Thanks for sharing my friend.

I think the 'founders' felt a need to separate the Church and State because they were coming from a European mindset dominated by "The Church" (mainly the catholic church, but also many other factions).

I think the big difference in modern American politics is that in N. America there is not one dominant Church in the same way there is in Europe (or at least was in the 16, 1700s). Sure, the Christian Right is a political force, but they aren't quite the same thing as the pope in say, 1750. So Americans dont have the same repulsion towards The Church as our European counterparts.

sorry...I think i have drifted, what are we talking about, exactly? i am still on topic?

reply to post by tothetenthpower

We've seen this countless times throughout history, where the lack of resources for the general population has led to the established powers needing to "feed" them with entertainment. Usually of a grotesque kind, that under normal economic conditions would NEVER be approved by the general population.

Indeed we have, presently I think it happens so subtly that most are not aware of it. Or see it for what it is.

A rose is a rose by any other name, but what happens when no one calls it a rose?

I see this as a growing trend in our current society. Further changes in the socio-economic landscape will only makes things worse. Which is the point of the whole process from a PTB standpoint.

And thus it has always been that “Desperate times breed desperate measures” you just need some desperate times to start out with. Since our de facto fiat instrument of debt currency is attached to nothing of value and simply is an instrument of debt, how then could the money supply be so tight? Unless of course you want for desperate times to rule the day, so desperate measure no longer seem so desperate?

In any case, thanks for waking some of us up to these concepts, too many people fail to see the bigger picture that lies above the bickering and sensationalist arguments.

At a certain point the emotional debate becomes so powerful and alluring it becomes virtually impossible to interject rational conversation into it.

Are you approaching that poiint?

Thanks for a great reply.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

Promising things which harken to Ancient Rome they put Christians before the lions as in the Flavian Amphitheatre.

The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, as well as my own All Roads Lead to Rome Thread are great reads when it comes to understanding just how powerful a tool religion can be when inspiring and manipulating the masses.

As always some truly great observations you have shared my friend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Your religion of Love now either supports and some politicians and religious leaders would say demand such violent solutions as preemptive war, where you do unto another, what you fear they intend to do to you first, or acts of violence to martyr yourself for your cause.

Thanks for sending me the link, Proto, though I have to say your OP was written so well I had difficulty narrowing down something specific to comment on. Threads like this are why I love ATS. Well done! I have to warn you though, you covered enough to get my mind working so this may not all apply to what's in your OP... Forgive me if I ramble and take a detour or three.

Now on to what I've quoted above, this is something I've never understood about religion. If a god is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving, why would he/she/it/whatever support or demand violence against those who don't believe in them? If they were all-knowing, they would know who doesn't believe and why they don't. If they're all-powerful, they could change it if they wanted to. If they're all-loving, they would love the non-believers as much as the believers and the point would be rather moot. If they are none of those things, how are they a god? If they are all of those things, then why is it even an issue if someone doesn't believe?

As far as how it ties into economic manipulation, I have to say that seeing the Pope makes me laugh. As do all the religious leaders who drive around in expensive cars while half their followers are struggling to make ends meet. You have to wonder why the Pope needs fancy shoes and why Pastor Tim needs a shiny new Cadillac to drive through the poor areas of town on his way to church every Sunday. (I'd give examples from other religions, but I don't know them well enough. Fill in your own example from other religions here.) Telling your followers that god wants them to give money every week/month/whatever the time frame, only to have it go to the religious leader instead of the poor is manipulation and greed no matter how you spin it yet the masses buy into it.

It all goes back to greed. Religious leaders want more power just like politicians do. The only difference is they get power from their churches followers. The more followers they have, the more money that gets put in the collection plate each week, the louder they claim their flavor of religion as the "right" one, the more stuff they have and the more "missions" they can go on. Do they honestly think the tribes in Africa give a rats behind about their god when they're starving? How about sending that collection plate money over there in the form of food and medicine instead of prayers and missionaries? Maybe build a hospital with it for the kids with malaria. Maybe a school so they can learn something after they get better from their case of malaria. Nah, the preacher needs a new suit. (Sorry, went on a tangent.. Moving on..)

What gets me is how anything can hold a person so captivated and so enthralled that they will gladly crawl to their doom instead of seeing how they are being manipulated. With religion, we have suicide bombers and the crusades. "God says they must die", and off they go ready to kill themselves as long as they take the "heathens" down with them. With politics, we have the people who refuse to even entertain the idea that maybe what they're chosen politician is telling them isn't the truth or that maybe it isn't going to turn out as great as they think. "Bob's a great politician. He's not a liar like the rest. This bill will make life safer/better/easier.", and off they go ready to devote anything and everything they have to helping Bob however they can not realizing they're being lied to so Bob can have another term. And so on and so forth with just about everything.

There are liars and swindlers everywhere, yet people get so caught up in "This is what I believe, and I'm right, so you must be a liar" that they don't see what's happening til it's too late. Whether it's with religion, politics, consumerism, or whatever, nothing is ever as it seems on first glance and too many people fall into the trap without ever seeing it.

reply to post by Jenna

Now on to what I've quoted above, this is something I've never understood about religion. If a god is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving, why would he/she/it/whatever support or demand violence against those who don't believe in them? If they were all-knowing, they would know who doesn't believe and why they don't. If they're all-powerful, they could change it if they wanted to. If they're all-loving, they would love the non-believers as much as the believers and the point would be rather moot. If they are none of those things, how are they a god? If they are all of those things, then why is it even an issue if someone doesn't believe?

That's an excellent question and I think the obvious answer is to the question most believers can't ask. Since faith is all about taking things on faith, and the more faith you show, the more righteous and correct you are, not thinking about such questions let alone asking them is all about a testament to faith.

The way the doctrines are often set up is to reward those who don't question as opposed to those that do.

Yet I think what we do see, when it comes to the intra-faith rivalries that many who claim to have faith are insecure as to the sect and the denomination they picked.

Proving to their fellow human that they chose the right one becomes yet another matter of faith.

As far as how it ties into economic manipulation, I have to say that seeing the Pope makes me laugh. As do all the religious leaders who drive around in expensive cars while half their followers are struggling to make ends meet. You have to wonder why the Pope needs fancy shoes and why Pastor Tim needs a shiny new Cadillac to drive through the poor areas of town on his way to church every Sunday. (I'd give examples from other religions, but I don't know them well enough. Fill in your own example from other religions here.) Telling your followers that god wants them to give money every week/month/whatever the time frame, only to have it go to the religious leader instead of the poor is manipulation and greed no matter how you spin it yet the masses buy into it.

A lot of this plays into the pomp and circumstance and pagentry that adds to the spectacle and high drama that make people fill a part of something bigger, and more important and grander than they are.

It's the same to a certain extent as going in to an expensive attorneys office. It will be decorated often with hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars in fine furnishings, persian carpets, tapestries and art.

The whole premise behind it is I am sucessfull look at what I have acquired as a result of that success.

You want on this team too!

It all goes back to greed. Religious leaders want more power just like politicians do. The only difference is they get power from their churches followers. The more followers they have, the more money that gets put in the collection plate each week, the louder they claim their flavor of religion as the "right" one, the more stuff they have and the more "missions" they can go on. Do they honestly think the tribes in Africa give a rats behind about their god when they're starving? How about sending that collection plate money over there in the form of food and medicine instead of prayers and missionaries? Maybe build a hospital with it for the kids with malaria. Maybe a school so they can learn something after they get better from their case of malaria. Nah, the preacher needs a new suit. (Sorry, went on a tangent.. Moving on..)

While there is no denying that their work is sometimes the only thing that gives aide and comfort to the most down trodden and overlooked and forgotten amongst us, missionary work is all about expanding the congregation and the political sphere of influence.

What is maybe not looked at so carefully is how corporations and nations then looking to rape resources or labor from such people and lands who suffer so, benefit from first giving these people some common notions of behavior as it's laid out in religion.

While there are hundreds of different denominations to the three major sects they all have at their core some basic laws, that do tend to bind everyone together in that way despite their differences on finer points.

Introducing a untamed civilization to the basic tennents of Abrahmic faith also introduces them to some basic laws and customs that then make it easier to incorporate them into the modern corporate structure.

Some really passionate and insightful observations Jenna, thanks for sharing, big star!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Since faith is all about taking things on faith, and the more faith you show, the more righteous and correct you are, not thinking about such questions let alone asking them is all about a testament to faith.

That's something I've noticed as well. The more you question, the more "evil" (not quite the word I'm looking for, but close) you are seen as being. Ask enough questions, even if it's merely out of a desire for better understanding, and you eventually are declared an outsider and they refuse to answer any more questions since you're just trying to trick them and it must be a test of their faith.

What is maybe not looked at so carefully is how corporations and nations then looking to rape resources or labor from such people and lands who suffer so, benefit from first giving these people some common notions of behavior as it's laid out in religion.

All the while telling them that they're just trying to "help" them, no less. This, too, comes back to greed. What better way to increase your profits than to take advantage of those who need help and have no idea that you have ulterior motives.