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Economic Manipulation and how it leads to Religious Extremism

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posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 10:10 AM
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Many in recent weeks have been alarmed about the rising tide of religious intolerance and extremism on ATS and the sheer volume of Religious oriented threads dotting the discussion boards.

Many others think it’s about time as they opine about the dangers of certain religion, religion itself or the importance of religious prophecy.

If asked many would say it’s a result of the Park 51 Community Center and Prayer Space proposed to be built within a few blocks of the former World Trade Centers. Some would contend it’s the recent controversy over International Burn a Quran Day.

Others would say its end time prophecies and how people imagine they are coming to pass. Whether these are Mayan 2012, Hopi, Christian Revelations, or Islam’s 12th Imam, some are urging us all to repent before it is too late, some to prepare and some to surrender ourselves and submit to what they feel is ultimately inevitable.

Yet the truth is that it is really none of these things that is the core driving factor leading to the pervasive attitudes of fear and pessimism, where hope, goodwill and trust is increasingly shorter and shorter supply.

While many of us passionately debate the virtues of religion, religious doctrine or lack there of, and whether it serves God, and those that follow the many scriptures, gospels and commandments that have come from Judean, Christian and Islamic Sects, or the Powers that Be, the Patrician and Corporate Oligarchs and Royals the tend to be the real force that drives most earthly events, most if not all of us can agree there are some fundamental esoteric truths in religion.

All of the more recent events and stimuli mentioned above are but merely symptoms, as what really is driving all these events is Money, the root of all evil, and specifically the lack of money in a recessed and depressed economy.

In this piece and discussion I intend to lay out the foundations for this notion for all to consider and discuss.

Religion the Opiate of the masses



“Die Religion… ist das Opium des Volkes” reads the original famous quote by Karl Marx, translated from his native German “Religion is the Opium of the people”.

en.wikipedia.org...

While Marx and his ideas of a Utopian Communist society have oft been both abused and misunderstood by those seeking to turn it into a pseudo religion in it’s own right, Marx’s many believe his thinking to be sound in this regard.

While many people understand their own perceptions of religion and what it means to them, let’s stop for a moment for those who don’t understand the qualities of opium.

en.wikipedia.org...

Opium use is as old as religion itself dating back in recorded history to 4200 BCE.

Opium interacts with the brain causing it to shut down its own natural endorphin production while introducing a much larger supply of endorphins into the central nervous system, creating a sense of euphoria and wellbeing.

en.wikipedia.org...

While it’s possible to naturally ratchet up one’s endorphin production through strenuous exercise like a ‘Jogger’s High’ or self inflicted pain of a masochistic or religious nature through practices like sado/masochism or those that flog, whip or crucify themselves to experience the mythical Christ’s pain along the route to the cross and his crucifixion, even without these more strenuous and extreme activities, many people get a natural endorphin release through religion, and meditation.

That sense of euphoria, and wellbeing and the sense of contentment and security that come along with it.

So though many might bristle at the notion, opium and religion can and often do produce very similar effects.

While many would argue for or against the virtues of one over another two things remain clear.

One is both opium and its derivative heroin as well as religion are very popular still to this day.

Two is unlike opium and its natural and artificial derivative which indulging can lead to very expensive addictions costing upwards of several hundred dollars a day to someone in the full throws of addiction, religion itself is virtually free.

Entire societies like China’s have virtually collapsed through Opium addiction, its allure and use became so pervasive, while on the other hand entire societies have succumbed to theocracies, a religious inspired government of all the people, that have often then led to collapse and revolutions as well as those so inspired by their religion they have exported it to other peoples and lands violently.

Opium does have some real medicinal benefits when used in prescribed ways in careful moderation.

Religion does have some real spiritual benefits when used in the manner as put forth in the gospels.

Yet both Opium and Religion do have a tendency to be over abused by those who end up allowing them to entirely dominate their life, and open the door to dealers and merchants of one, and priests and politicians of the other, who further exploit that in ways that are seldom to anyone’s benefit, and everyone’s benefit.

Fundamentalism



While opium costs money and religion is free, there are a number of other things that make for a well entertained and happy society that cost money too.

For the most part we call them luxuries, but many especially in the Western First World Nations, even those in the lower and middle socio-economic classes have long enjoyed some.

Dining out, going to the movies, a weekend get-a-way, or vacation or an impulse shopping spree, or sporting or other entertainment event, are things many of us are accustomed to during healthy economic times.

Many like to work hard, then play hard too, enjoying the fruits of those labors in a well balanced life where entertainment, recreation, and work all go hand in hand. Many find pride and joy in indulging their children’s pursuits of recreational and educational opportunities that cost money. Many children anxious to socialize in the world and learn from it and explore it put a lot of pressure on parents to fund the expense and cost of doing some of those things. When we can that makes them happy, and that makes us happy. When we can’t that makes them unhappy, and tends to make us unhappy too.

When times do get difficult economically, we all start cutting our expenses, luxuries go first, as needs are reassessed in favor of wants. Many soon find that they are not only frustrated and bored from not being able to afford the economic cost of many forms of recreation and self indulgence, but find a lot of extra time on their hands in absence to them to question what has suddenly happened that they no longer can enjoy these things.

Initially they look to politicians that typically provide some level of false hope, while asking for some patience. They are working on it, they have assembled a team, legislation is pending, the finest minds are working on it, and things are improving blah, blah, blah.

Yet these words more often than not are hollow ones and the gestures empty, and while people want to trust in their leaders and authority they start looking elsewhere for answers.

Some even flock here to ATS looking for the deeper and darker reasons why their standard of life is not well.

Some will turn to drugs like Opium if they can still afford to some how by hook or by crook, to escape an increasingly unpleasant and frustrating reality.

Yet others, many others will turn to religion, that other opium of the people, for not just solace but answers. Answers that they typically find in doom and gloom prophecies.

That normally would be a turn off for many people, but like our political leaders, and their own promises of better times, these prophecies off the religious hope of much better times once a prescribed period of tribulation, suffering, repenting, and penitence has occurred.

In many ways religion is more powerful, while opium addiction comes with a certain stigma of being amoral or weak or overly self indulgent, religion offers something of the opposite nature, a very powerful word and ideal called absolution.

en.wikipedia.org...

Believe and obey, and all your wrongs shall be forgiven and you will stand in good stead when these tribulations are over.

There is now a real offer, of a tangible reward for accepting stoically one’s fate, and resigning oneself to accept dark days.

Whether you are a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim the faithful believe these things almost…

Three Card Monte and the Old Shell Game

Because each one of these three sects, offer absolution only based on following it’s scriptures, gospels and commandments, that means in many practitioners eyes you only have a one out of three chance of getting that absolution and it’s all dependent on whether you picked you the right sect to believe in.

No matter what sect you chose some fundamental aspects of human nature now come into play. First you don’t want to even consider being wrong when it comes to such an important choice in theory. Two in order to be right, you have to accept the other two sects are then wrong. Three because you just ‘love’ everyone, you want to save the other two from them selves and promote your sect as the right one, in large part primarily to validate your choice in it. Four because the other two are wrong, they can’t stand you are right, and because you have already been ‘saved’ by making the correct choice, their concern that you have not been becomes a test of your own faith by ‘evil’ forces who don’t want you to receive absolution, but want to dominate the world through a false and horrible doctrine.

Your religion of Love now either supports and some politicians and religious leaders would say demand such violent solutions as preemptive war, where you do unto another, what you fear they intend to do to you first, or acts of violence to martyr yourself for your cause.

This all amounts to a game of Three Card Monte, or the Shell Game.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

With three choices in play, you are literally staking your life on having selected the right one, and indeed for some they are willing to go one step further and stake not just their own life that they have chosen the right one, but to take a life or lives of those they are sure have chosen the wrong one.

Someone addicted to opium might opt to rob you to feed and pay for their addiction, but that’s only because they imagine you have the money that will enable them to do that. Robbery and murder of course are two different things and no one offers violent thieving junkies absolution so they tend to try not to kill anyone in this pursuit.

Those who have embraced religion though to the point of similar addiction tend not to be so particular though, because they all believe in theory absolution can be had from their God.

Of course having two thirds of the earth’s population split three ways along these lines, and each equally insecure and intent to prove they are right, certainly does provide an opportunity for those who would manipulate those fears and desires.

Immigration/Israel



Each sect comes to fear the other, each sure the other wants to dominate them and eliminate them, for bad and evil reasons, each sure the other will use violence in all its extreme forms to attain that end.

Many then see their sect’s survival and dominance as a numbers game that they then pursue in two different ways.

One is to recruit, recruit, recruit, to proselytize the virtues of your religion, the importance of its prophecies the euphoria, joy and contentment and absolution it ultimately claims to offer.

Two is to use attrition to reduce the other sect’s numbers. Some see the way to do this as convincing the others theirs is the true religion and the way to go. Others see a greater advantage through killing the members of another religion or driving them into Diaspora.

Making them flee their traditional homes and lands for safer greener pastures, and removing them from the environment.

While many see a spread of Islam into Western First World Nations and Cultures most perceive it as a purposeful act on part of Islam to spread its influence to become the dominant sect.

Yet the real driving factors behind this started with the displacement of millions of Muslims by the reintroduction of the State of Israel in the 20th Century, where now stateless Palestinians have travelled far and wide looking for new homes and economic opportunities.

Because Judaism is the least popular sect based on numbers of practitioners it has a lot tougher road to hoe in the numbers game, so attrition often becomes the number one remedy by Israel in establishing security through dominance.

Maintaining a dominant sphere of influence becomes key and central to that goal, and that includes creating economic and political conditions that make the Middle East an increasingly dangerous place to live as bombs and missiles rain on each side of the Muslim/Judean divide.

War causes refugees seeking safe haven, yet the presence of refugees in a save haven, when those refugees have a different religion and culture, tends to make the pre-existing denizens of that save haven, feel insecure and worry about why they really are there, when it comes to who is going to have those dominating numbers, that are required in a world that runs largely on a might makes right concept of morality and security.

This then tends to lead to even more approval of violent remedies which tends to then just lead to more refugees!

So while some see Islam spreading, I believe it’s more accurate to say it’s being displaced, in part by the presence of Israel, and the wars that are often being waged, for oil and opium under the thin guise of Holy Crusades for those religious minded people who do see their own sect as being the ‘right’ choice, and the superior one.

While of course the religious seek to profit off of this, which really profits of it, are military industrialists who manufacture and sell the weapons, the bankers who lend the money to purchase them, and the opium dealers themselves!

Banks and the Powers that Be Understanding Three Card Monte and the Shell Game



While many people do see the hand of God or prophecy in the day’s current events, others see financial and economic manipulations of the Elite as the real driving factor.

As any confidence artist, shylock or hustler can tell you the trick to Three Card Monte is keeping the Red Queen the object of the game is picking, up your sleeve and the ball hidden under the three shells in the Shell Game in the palm of your hand.

All three options the player has gambled on are false ones. The game is not meant to be won, the game is meant to take you for a ride and fleece you of your money.

Trillions have been spent on the Middle East Wars, much of it borrowed in the people’s names of the nations fighting these wars, so that bankers are making a fortune in interest, and most of that borrowed money has been paid to a small amount of corporations that provide technology, weaponry and contractors to assist in fighting the wars.

Primarily the Oil Companies have benefitted the most, because the turmoil and uncertainty makes for the security of trade routes being speculative, based on a presumption they could be disrupted at any time by hostilities. Indeed every time the Israeli or U.S. Government comes out with a threat of sanctions or military action against Iran the spot futures market on oil inches upward as speculators pay may for it in bulk in advance increasing its price to consumers.

Gasoline is like a tax for most of us, our suburban sprawl lifestyle and desire to be independent in as many things as possible makes gasoline a genuine need and not a luxury.

As its price goes up, it decreases our spending power in every other arena of life.

Yet it also increases further the prices for other necessities like groceries and basic life sustaining economies because most of them are produced and packaged in oil intensive ways. When the price of oil goes up, so does the price of those commodities as the businesses pass that added expense along to the consumer, thus decreasing one’s spending power further.

The less discretionary income a person has, the less entertainment time they tend to have as a result, the more they then focus on looking for answers why and many do turn to religion.

Yet the number one supporters amongst the populations of all sides fighting in the Middle East are the people who support it for religious reasons!

Thus setting the conditions for the cycle to be perpetual where violence and the price of oil, and a decreasing quality of life and purchasing power all go hand in hand.

Bread and Circuses



When times get difficult economically people still want entertained, in fact they want entertained more than ever to distract themselves from empty wallets, empty stomachs, and empty and broken promises.

So even those who are not religious end up getting drawn to the spectacle of the religious infighting and the high drama it is known sometimes to create. Will they dare to build a mosque there? Will they dare to burn a Quran? Will someone retaliate and how?

Intrigues breed drama and spectacle, and often the fears that lead to even more drama and spectacle.

Prophecies can in turn be made to be self fulfilling as the conditions for them to be are literally created by those who are sure they will come to pass and want to see them come to pass.

With words like God and absolution involved, King and Country involved, it’s never the individual’s fault for gambling this is a good investment of their focus and beliefs.

In a fear intensive atmosphere where people are already feeling insecure about how they will pay the rent or mortgage this month, while worried about how they are going to fill up their gas tank to get to work in the morning, and feed their family tonight, fear and worry become a way of life.

Any fear it seems then becomes a valid one, everyone and anyone who things it differently a potential enemy.

More people are then willing to justify extreme and provocative remedies just further deepening the cycle and the crisis and perpetuating it as they escalate it.

The drama and allure as entertainment to an impoverished group becomes consuming.

For those few who are profiting handsomely on it, manipulating its continuance becomes a necessity in their own mind.

Many would say the prophecies are the logical outcome in a sense of so much greed and stupidity.

Yet far too many would not change that even if they could come to believe the very real manipulations by the elite are behind it, because of that powerful opiate like desire for religion to assuage their every fear, and give them feelings of security and contentment.

Restoring Economic Vitality



How to get off that ride? Living well they say is the best revenge and few could argue successfully at the present they are living well.

Money the root of all evil continues to be the root of the problem. Yet the fine art of making, earning or stealing money is usually more intensive and harder than being entertained by the symptoms manifest when economic decay and a lack of economic vitality is present.

People as a result end up gravitating towards the things that will worsen and continue the cycle.

While the earth is not short of resources or a bounty capable of sustaining all in a much more quality life it is short of jobs and economic opportunities.

In large that’s part because most of the resources are controlled and owned by very few people, the Powers that Be.

So jobs then become dependent on what kind of logistical infrastructure they see fit in running those businesses that mine, farm, craft and manufacture, and then retail and service them and the products created by them.

Once they reach a certain quota they really need no more workers, or consumers, and since the resources are already locked up in their control, it becomes very hard for anyone outside that very small group, to provide opportunities to the masses.

You now have worthless eaters, people who aren’t needed for any available work, people who aren’t great consumers because they have no money.

An excess of humanity that in large part became excessive through a numbers game of trying to attain dominance for their religious sect or nation. There is strength in numbers or so it is believed, but that strength can turn into a liability when there is an excess that serves no real purpose to the powers that be.

An excess that can easily be manipulated to be excessive in their perspectives and perceptions and the remedies they will support to lead to the promise of a better tomorrow.

They become especially easy to exploit to the religion they turn to, to sustain themselves in the most difficult and uncertain of times.

It becomes so easy to manipulate them through prophecy to an end that just makes the rich, richer, the poor poorer, and the other guy, instead of the big guy, the real guy, the fall guy.

While the religious see each rival sect as the enemy and the harbinger of doom, and nationalists and statists and those that subscribe to those notions of identity as the rival nation as being the harbinger of doom, in reality it’s the Powers that Be, that very small group of international corporate elitists and royals who manipulate the religious for their own profit who are the real enemy of the people of earth.

The people of earth who see themselves usually as any thing but, but a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew, or an American, German or Iranian, or a Republican or Democrat, as they are first divided, then manipulated and then conquered using their own aspirations, desire for dominance, validity and absolution as their ultimate undoing.

Creating a robust economy in all areas of the world so that everyone can lead a quality of life that is well balanced between work and play, the physical and the spiritual, the sensual and intellectual is key to eliminating the appeal of Opium and Religion as an escape and the religious fundamentalism and extremism that manifests itself in supporting fear based preemptive wars and acts of terrorism.

Focusing on the real enemy, scarcity and deprivation, caused by systems that many imagine once worked but are now broken that were in fact always designed to promote scarcity and deprivation becomes the key in making the world a happy and safe place for everyone where no one feels threatened or compelled, to turn to extreme forms of belief to justify violence, death, murder and rape, and being indifferent to the suffering and the needy as a result.

Understanding the world is first and foremost the most important step in then changing it!




posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:02 AM
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Religion has been used throughout history to manipulate and control the masses. Constantine used Christianity that way when made it the official religion of the Roman Empire, and all kings and emperors claimed that they ruled by divine right in one form or another. If the masses disobeyed the rulers then they risked going to hell or some other kind of eternal punishment.

This is why I think the Protestant Reformation and the liberal-democratic revolutions from down below went hand-in-hand. Suddenly, there was not just one official state religion but many, and the choice would be left up to the individual conscience. Then Deists, skeptics and freethinkers began to appear and questioned whether any religions were "right" at all. At the elite levels, then Christianity started to become more "scientific" and liberal in order to survive among educated people, while fundmentalism was reserved for the masses. When the socialist and Marxist parties started to appear in Europe, the working class began to fall away from organized religion as well.

In the US, though, we never really had a socialist or labor party like other countries, but just the two capitalist parties. Our history would have been more like Europe had Eugene Debs been successful in the early 1900s, and then we would have had the two party system with one socialistic or social democratic party and the other on the side of capital and business interests. That would have made us less "exceptional", I think, and would have probably finished off fundmentalism except at the margins of society.

For many reasons, though, US history took a different turn, which is why all these reactionary and Tea Party elements still exist, and are trying to turn back the clock to the 19th Century--or even the 17th Century. They are mentally and culturally stuck in the past, and they are holding the country back. I think we have real fascist potential there, especially if this depression gets worse.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by witness63
 


Great post and some wonderful additional background regarding the power of religion and it's attractiveness to politicians and politcally minded people looking for a name and political power.

Politicians by some strange version always look to the romanticized past as a solution for present and future problems.

For some reason they and the people who see present and future solutions in a romanticized past typically fail to take note that it only led to the present problems and really is by extension not a solution moving forward.

Like religion can be it becomes almost a unbreakable form of circular logic, where people try to make work the same failed ideals over and over again.

The best lie is one couched with a shred of truth, and while many of the ideals are sound and lofty, it's usually what wasn't included or considered that originally led to those lofty and some times very sound notions not working out as envisioned.

So there is a great danger in simply wanting to discard the present condition and the future trends it is creating to seek a solution in a past that no longer exists and never factored in the present conditions to begin with.

Great post, big star, and thanks for sharing.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:12 AM
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Well yes. The good soil of american economic fields have lead many of late to leave their homelands and come here. I think thats why hard core Muslims in the east got angry and started blowing things up. We were stealing the hearts and minds of their dumb sheep.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:14 AM
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Proto, as usual, I am enjoying your thoughts on this subject and I completely agree with the premise. With that being said, I also happen to think that conspiratorial extremism is as result of economic manipulation, just like religious extremism and other forms of extremism. For those who are less inclined to believe in the mystical, there is conspiracy and like opium and religion, people have a tendancy to get carried away or addicted if you will. It doesn't mean that those who believe in conspiracy have no reason to or that it is some false sense of being, only that it too is a mechanism to toss blame around those things that we can not control. Conspiracy or the need to believe in conspiracy is driven by the same factors that are behind religion, IMO.

When you are on a roller coaster, you grip your handle-bar tight, holding on to dear life. Our emotions and how they relate to our environment variables are no different. When things are going good and they always have been that way, people tend to become complacent and questions aren't needed. For instance, when you have an air conditioned home, shiny new car and enough food to where some is thrown away at the end of the day, there is no need to question your surroundings and ask why. However, when you are in a cave in Afghanistan or a tent in the park, where the future is not so certain, the question "why?" becomes much more prevalent and when that question is asked, the answer is hardly ever pretty.

When people need to ask the question "Why?", the answer is hardly ever going to be liked and/or agreed with. Reality isn't pretty and when a sense of security is your blanket, a peaceful bliss is built as a mental wall between us and the ugly reality that we seperate ourselves from.

Anyway, thanks for threead.

--airspoon



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Logarock
Well yes. The good soil of american economic fields have lead many of late to leave their homelands and come here. I think thats why hard core Muslims in the east got angry and started blowing things up. We were stealing the hearts and minds of their dumb sheep.


I do believe there is no shortage of reasons on all sides of the religious and national divides that compell people often to zero in and focus on just one or two aspects for the purpose of political agendas.

The could be the politics of religion, that some times do benefit the politics of a nation, that some times do benefit the politics of a corporation, all depending on what their own agendas and goals are.

They say politics makes strange bedfellows, and I think we all have to be on guard when we consider the validity and truth of what our chosen and selected lovers are whispering in our ears.

Are they telling us what we want to hear, by focusing in only those aspects that we are focused on, or are they telling us the truth in regards to their own true opinions and agenda.

Are they making us fools while extolling we could be heros? Do we become the lackeys and pawns in some hidden agenda, by partnering and believing in those who potentially might have another one, simply because they are telling us in whole or in part, what we want to hear?

Thats the big question.

Oh and by the way, the thread is aimed at the extremists in all three sects and not just any one in particular.

Thanks for sharing.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by airspoon
 





When you are on a roller coaster, you grip your handle-bar tight, holding on to dear life. Our emotions and how they relate to our environment variables are no different. When things are going good and they always have been that way, people tend to become complacent and questions aren't needed. For instance, when you have an air conditioned home, shiny new car and enough food to where some is thrown away at the end of the day, there is no need to question your surroundings and ask why. However, when you are in a cave in Afghanistan or a tent in the park, where the future is not so certain, the question "why?" becomes much more prevalent and when that question is asked, the answer is hardly ever pretty.


People tend to only be able to draw the answers from their own limited experiences and perspectives on life. Someone living in a cave, who has never ridden in a car, or seen the inside of a 7-Eleven is likely to have a very different take than someone working at the car wash next door to a 7-Eleven.

We are all very much products of our environment yet tend to like to assume every one understands us, how we live and where we are coming from, while we tend to both pretend and judge how and why others live differently and should despite that different environment understand what ours is all about.

I think a critical lack of empathy is a result of this, as well as a often unreasoned level of fear.

When people assume they are dyameterically opposed to one another in rigid positions that won't change, I think they tend to look immediately to other solutions beyond dialouge and reaching a greater understanding.

Yet what politics itself displays and even religion is that it's possible to reach meanigfull compromise that could satisfy everyone's basic needs and eliminate their fears while providing them a greater degree of security and prosperity.

Great post my friend, thanks for joining in.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:55 AM
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its like Obama said (and like they took WAY out of context)

the people who are most effected by the issues of joblessness, environmental degredation, and corporatism retreat into 'god and guns' .

Its the same for poor, misled idiots in Pakistan as much as it is for them in Ohio or Kansas.

'they' (whoever they are) seed division because it keeps us separated. us separated keeps them in power. Religion is a great tool for division. And the Mulism world is so 'different' than the west, it makes an excellent bogeyman.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by justadood
 


Great post and I tend to agree, no one wins in confrontation, and no one ever really has the moral high ground in confrontation.

There is an old saying about having to accept the bad with the good, but do we really have to do that? Surely there must be a way for all people who enjoy religion no matter what it is, to do that always, without letting them selves be manipulated into supporting bad ideas and things, to a bad end.

Thanks for sharing my friend.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 





Focusing on the real enemy, scarcity and deprivation, caused by systems that many imagine once worked but are now broken that were in fact always designed to promote scarcity and deprivation becomes the key in making the world a happy and safe place for everyone where no one feels threatened or compelled, to turn to extreme forms of belief to justify violence, death, murder and rape, and being indifferent to the suffering and the needy as a result.


Scarcity and deprivation is not the only thing that the three major sects in the world are about, it is conquer and divide. They only serve to divide us, it is the only way they can conquer us.

No religion is right or wrong, as you mentioned there is always a little bit of truth and unfortunately that is what the populace focuses on, as long is that is the case the big picture stays obscured from the masses. That is by design of course.

Like that you include all three sects, nothing is the fault of one, in reality the fault lies with us, they have done their job well now it's our turn, do you think it may be to late?

Thank you Proto for another great thread my friend.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by justadood
 

Surely there must be a way for all people who enjoy religion no matter what it is, to do that always, without letting them selves be manipulated into supporting bad ideas and things, to a bad end.


I'm not so sure. Religion is 'organized' and anything that is organized can become political. This is why the Western tradition of European politics has made such an attempt to remove the Church from the Sate. Because the Church has run the state for so long.

to make a distinction, i would say "Spirituality" is a lot less corrupt, because it is merely about worship. As soon as it becomes an organized 'group' it becomes political and can be manipulated along all sorts of fault lines.

or so it seems to me.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by Aquarius1
 





No religion is right or wrong, as you mentioned there is always a little bit of truth and unfortunately that is what the populace focuses on, as long is that is the case the big picture stays obscured from the masses. That is by design of course.

Like that you include all three sects, nothing is the fault of one, in reality the fault lies with us, they have done their job well now it's our turn, do you think it may be to late?


Thanks for mentioning that and I sure would like to strongly stress two things in regards to this thread.

It's not about attacking religion, or any single religion, or blaming religion, for the world's woes.

It's about appealing to people both religious and not, to consider how, who, why, where and when some might see an advantage in exploiting your religious sensibilities for profit and power by appealing to and trying to manipulate your religious beliefs.

It's not about which religion did what, or who has the most bad eggs, or who did what first.

It really is just about manipulation, and how and why its a safe conclusion to believe that some people would see power and profit in manipulating people along religious lines.

Thanks for posting and sharing my friend.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by justadood
 





I'm not so sure. Religion is 'organized' and anything that is organized can become political. This is why the Western tradition of European politics has made such an attempt to remove the Church from the Sate. Because the Church has run the state for so long.


I think by and large what many of the United States founders felt was that both tend to corrupt one another. Politicians corrupt the church by equating their ambitions with ones God would approve of when just as often or not God might not. While church's looking for political power will give it to a politician in a kind of quid pro quo were each in turn does each a favor that may not be good for the whole, or even them in the short or the long run.

While they remain seperate in most Western Republics it's a thin line that separates to two with people on each side of it often straddling or stepping over that line.

Some would say it's a powerful temptation for both.

Thanks for sharing my friend.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by justadood
 





to make a distinction, i would say "Spirituality" is a lot less corrupt, because it is merely about worship. As soon as it becomes an organized 'group' it becomes political and can be manipulated along all sorts of fault lines.


I don't agree that spirituality is about worship at all, I consider myself a spiritual person and I worship no one or anything. Now some want to make spiritually another religion and that is not what it is in opinion.

No one can corrupt spirituality except yourself, it is not a following of others, it's going into yourself and finding your own truth.


edit on 15-9-2010 by Aquarius1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Aquarius1
 





I don't agree that spirituality is about worship at all, I consider myself a spiritual person and I worship no one or anything. Now some want to make spiritually another religion and that is not what it is in opinion.



There is no denying that many people do find something meaningful of a spiritual nature through religion, but religion also in addition offers people a shared identity and strength in numbers. While neither of those is a bad thing, they are things that make politically manipulating the religious an attractive proposition.

Great observation, thanks for sharing my friend.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Money, the root of all evil, and specifically the lack of money in a recessed and depressed economy.


And even more specifically, the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. (1 Timothy 6:10) And in a depressed society, that love, need, addiction is stronger than ever.



One is both opium and its derivative heroin as well as religion are very popular still to this day.


And they are all addictive. That's why so many heroine and opium addicts turn to religion in prison when they can no longer get their drug of choice. It's just switching from one addiction to another.



While of course the religious seek to profit off of this, which really profits of it, are military industrialists who manufacture and sell the weapons, the bankers who lend the money to purchase them, and the opium dealers themselves!


Isn't it always the pusher who makes the big bucks?

Another great thread, Proto, and one that brings to light the reasons that we find ourselves where we are today. In a drugged haze that allows us to be manipulated to serve the agenda of the PTB, to the point of completely abandoning our principles and our very selves. People embarrass me sometimes. How gullible and impressionable we are! How easily we can be shaken from our beliefs with just a little engineered fear-mongering.

Sometimes I wish the world would wake up with amnesia.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Some excellent points as always my friend, thanks for joining in and sharing.

As far as the world waking up with amnesia one day and putting this all behind us, I mused earlier today that some of the extremism and intolerance of some not only makes me ashamed at times to admit I am from this planet, but may be what drives so many people to post in the ATS Gray Are they aren’t of this planet.

It amazes me how we can’t all see the benefit of learning to get along.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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Gr8 Thread Proto!
Start and Flag of course!


It's interesting though, because when you started off talking about religion and opium I honestly did see alot of parallel, but when you went on to talking about Israel, bankers and politicians I thought you were going to continue talking with drug trade parallels.

Like when you said people don't like to see too many religions of another beliefs, I thought you were going to go into drug gang territories, and I ended up seeing alot of parallels with the rest of the thread too.

But basically yes I completely agree with you

I agree with it's all about... let's say.... hope or loss of hope
but sooner or later the people are going to have to start smartening up and I just don't see that happening

you know the other day some people were talking about politics and I said ya but this and that, and obama this.
And it was all fact, and on top of that when I say fact I mean mainstream news fact and they called me a conspiracy theorist lol.

So now there's a new breed of people thinking that informed people are conspiracy theorists.

We have a long way to go and i'm not too optimistic to be honest.



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 02:20 PM
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How about Religion as a necessary evil?

Imagine for a minute if throughout the ages there was no religion to put the 'fear of God' into people so they would remain more or less good law abiding citizens.

Moses brought down 10 commandments... we all know that story but the old testament is full of rules and laws designed to give the masses the necessary focus (fear of reprisal) if they didn't tow the line...

We have laws to do that today, enforced by police... but we see how well that system is working. The fear for your immortal soul was more effective back then..

Since that time though greedy control freaks have taken over most organized religions and throughout history have changed the rules to suit their agenda. It is dissatisfaction with this system that cause all the splinter religions that breed activists.

I am sure everyone by now understands that the god of isreal, the god of the Christians and the god of Islam is all the SAME god... it is merely man's interpretation that makes the split... and because of those interpretations, we have 2000 years of religious war and umpteen thousand factions, some fanatical in nature

Take away religion now... suddenly and you will have anarchy... because that fear of god still keeps most people from doing as they will...

Perhaps this is the reason the PTB fear telling us the 'truth' about the aliens? Afterall since all the various gods in history are not of this Earth, are they not true ET in the definition of the term extra Terrestrial - not of this earth?

Above the entrance to the Potala in Lhasa. Tibet is a sign...."A Thousand Monks, A Thousand Religions"

I always liked that phrase



BTW how many of you actually KNOW the 10 commandments? The ORIGINAL ones?





edit on 15-9-2010 by zorgon because: I really don't know.... just... BECAUSE



posted on Sep, 15 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


I agree with you there are a lot of other drug related tie ins that I didn't touch upon, like how the Major Intelligence Agencies and Royals and Oligarchs have been involved with the illicit drug trade.

Yet I really want to display what Marx meant in his famous quote "Religion is the opium of the people".

I honestly don't know it its' possible to count all the denominations of the three sects of Abraham. It could easily end up in hundreds of slightly unique takes on God and a sect, and that’s just on a denominational institutional level.

Whey you throw in the billions of people who practice these religions each with a take that is somewhat unique to them, you not only see its alluring power, but its divisive power too.

Ideally we should be able to celebrate our differences, even if you are a White Anglo Saxon Protestant I like to think most still enjoy a good plate of Curry, some Chinese Take Out, a Mexican Taco, and a dish of Lasagna from time to time.

Yet for the most part the religious, if not the religions themselves seem to fear diversity and want for us all to fear diversity in religion to favor one sect over the other, one person’s perspective on it over another’s.

I wanted to point out how strange that really is since variety truly is the spice of life.

Not only how strange that is, but how it could be so easy and advantageous to manipulate people along the lines of their religious beliefs.

Here is another correlation between opium and religion, both are nearly impossible to give up for people who are addicted to them.

Thanks for sharing my friend.



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