20 Signs America Is No Longer Free

reply to post by Arrowmancer


I began a reply to your post, but the numerous logical fallacies gave me a headache. There's no bible allowed in a court house because church and state are supposed to be separate, and a bible in a court house is a huge breach of that.

Freedom to assemble? As long as you fit the criteria required for an assembly permit, you're free to assemble. What's wrong with that? By that malformed logic, people should be allowed to just get behind the wheel of a car without a permit; after all, people can be denied their license right? Right?

Freedom of Press, I don't understand why you want absolute full disclosure to the PRESS of all things.. what if sensitive documents were seen in press publications by the wrong people? Don't you understand that what you're asking of the government is the exact thing the OP is complaining about?

There is Freedom of Speech, but there should be obvious limitations when the content of the Speech violates cultural/societal norms in a negative manner.

Please don't respond to this post without debunking my premises.

edit::

I just read your piece on taxes, and I stopped when you insinuate some sort of connection between the case of England actually taxing the colonists without representation with our current system. Unbelievable.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Erase]

reply to post by pacific_waters


Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

What, we broke the law, on our farm we grew corn and hay for our cows. And our cows were healthy and happy.

Did you know cows love persimmons. We had a persimmon tree near the pasture and I didn't like persimmons so when they got ripe, I'de pick a bunch and give them to the cows.

During the second world war, America wasn't even at war with Russia, so how can you say that you defeated Communisn. The Russians sacrificed more during ww2 than America. Try reading a history book.

Last time I checked Communism is still going strong and Americans don't even know how to win a war.




[edit on 3-9-2010 by kindred]

Originally posted by Erase
reply to post by Arrowmancer

 

I began a reply to your post, but the numerous logical fallacies gave me a headache. There's no bible allowed in a court house because church and state are supposed to be separate, and a bible in a court house is a huge breach of that.

Well, first, there are only logical fallacies in the mind of the thinker. This may not fit in with your idea of logic, but it fits in perfectly with mine. Which will lead you to believe I'm an idiot, I'm sure, but that's OK, too.

You are not guaranteed a separation of church and state. Nowhere is that even mentioned. What you are guaranteed is a separation of state FROM church, and those two things are completely different. At the base level, the courthouse I used as an example is property of the citizens. We bought and paid for it, we can do with it what we wish, within reason. It's stated that congress can't pass a law concerning an establishment of religion. IT doesn't say that religion can't cross the other way. If what you say about the separation is true, than why is it stated that are rights are 'endowed by our creator'? Nonspecific as to who or what that creator was and is an excellent example of how the First is misunderstood and misrepresented.

Freedom to assemble? As long as you fit the criteria required for an assembly permit, you're free to assemble. What's wrong with that? By that malformed logic, people should be allowed to just get behind the wheel of a car without a permit; after all, people can be denied their license right? Right?

I appreciate you making my point for me. Abridging the right to assemble. There's no malformed logic here. Abridge: to curtail; diminish Being required to acquire a permit that can be rejected by the issuer is a possibility of abridging that right. Having a single stipulation or requirement for the granting of such a permit is a violation of the First Amendment.

Freedom of Press, I don't understand why you want absolute full disclosure to the PRESS of all things.. what if sensitive documents were seen in press publications by the wrong people? Don't you understand that what you're asking of the government is the exact thing the OP is complaining about?

I don't think all information should be given to the press. But alot more than what is given. If transparency existed, at least to a degree, then the majority of the problems we face domestically and abroad wouldn't exist, and the ones that DO exist would exist and be understood by the citizenry. It's our right to be informed. I understand there are and always be situations where we can't be completely informed, but the level of understanding we currently have is comical. If you think that what I'm complaining about is backing up the opposing side of the OP's argument, allow him or her to say so. I think that it is backing up the OPs side.

There is Freedom of Speech, but there should be obvious limitations when the content of the Speech violates cultural/societal norms in a negative manner.

And therein lies the problem. You aren't protected from positive, loving, well-meaning speech. The First Amendment protects you from the negative things that violate cultural/societal norms. You have the right to say anything you want, regardless of who it offends. But you also have the right not to listen to those who offend you. There should be zero limitations on the Freedom of Speech. Period. Ever. The First was spelled out plainly so that it couldn't be misunderstood.

Please don't respond to this post without debunking my premises.

I can only assume that you thought I wouldn't defend my original position and would begin a tirade of bashing anyone who doesn't agree with me. I can assure you, I have never done such a thing and never will. I know you don't agree with me, and I will try as hard as I can to see from your point of view, but I expect the same courtesy. This last quoted sentence makes me wonder if you were simply trying to antagonize me. Regardless of your intentions, I would like to know why you believe these things I disagree with and why you think I'm wrong.

I will be the first to admit a mistake, and I have no problem changing my opinions if I realize that they are based on lies, falsities, or truly broken logic. But the 'Headache' comment was unnecessary. I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. I'll debate with you in a courteous manner without trying to insult you.

I can hope that in the future, you'll do the same.

Editing this so I can give you a fitting response.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Erase]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by 5MaveN5
I hate to beat a dead horse, and I could be incorrect in how the law is applied. But I would assume that anyone that sells anything on a website would have a business license, or be paying a franchise tax, or at least be paying income tax on any money earned.

Incorrect. They were specifically taxing people using the Goodle AdSense program, which allows you to put ads on your site for free and generate a few cents per click. Some people only make a couple bucks a month, some make thousands, depending on how popular their blog it.

When you sign up for this program (I've done so in the past), all you give them is personal and bank info. You don't need (and aren't offered) any sort of business license.

Geez, you mean people may actually make money doing this? You know we can't let that happen. F.. em, they need a license !! We need our cut!

Sorry to argue this small issue on this thread, but it seems that it is fitting in a discusion about freedom.

Where I am from, people are required to report income and pay applicable taxes. You ever even had a job?

It just seems like just one more little bite, harmless really, and obviously people are ready to defend it. License equals taxation and control...


I agree that it seems like the elder posters can see the aggregate effect of all of the small losses of freedoms that have happened over the past couple of decades.

I wonder it just goes part and parcell with a more technologically inclined society, is it possible to have so much information and connectedness out there with out more limitations to protect us? Or is it just that fact that it is there and the PTB can and will take advanage of it. A bit of both maybe?

Good thread, I love to see all of the brain power at work on ATS.

reply to post by Arrowmancer

Well, first, there are only logical fallacies in the mind of the thinker. This may not fit in with your idea of logic, but it fits in perfectly with mine. Which will lead you to believe I'm an idiot, I'm sure, but that's OK, too.

en.wikipedia.org...

Logical fallacies aren't dependent on the thinker's mind, they depend on whether the proof is valid and sound or not. There are established lines of reasoning that can be easily followed and applied from situation to situation.

You are not guaranteed a separation of church and state. Nowhere is that even mentioned. What you are guaranteed is a separation of state FROM church, and those two things are completely different. At the base level, the courthouse I used as an example is property of the citizens. We bought and paid for it, we can do with it what we wish, within reason. It's stated that congress can't pass a law concerning an establishment of religion. IT doesn't say that religion can't cross the other way. If what you say about the separation is true, than why is it stated that are rights are 'endowed by our creator'? Nonspecific as to who or what that creator was and is an excellent example of how the First is misunderstood and misrepresented.

I'll take your word for the first three sentences, but I have a problem with the fourth. Unless I am mistaken, the taxes used to fund the construction of the courthouse are managed by the same people those being taxed put into power. Now that I look back on that, it seems that we're simply agreeing with each other. That paragraph as a whole was actually quite informative, thank you.

I appreciate you making my point for me. Abridging the right to assemble. There's no malformed logic here. Abridge: to curtail; diminish Being required to acquire a permit that can be rejected by the issuer is a possibility of abridging that right. Having a single stipulation or requirement for the granting of such a permit is a violation of the First Amendment.

Do you believe that the requirement of a permit of sorts to drive a car is a violation as well?

I don't think all information should be given to the press. But alot more than what is given. If transparency existed, at least to a degree, then the majority of the problems we face domestically and abroad wouldn't exist, and the ones that DO exist would exist and be understood by the citizenry. It's our right to be informed. I understand there are and always be situations where we can't be completely informed, but the level of understanding we currently have is comical. If you think that what I'm complaining about is backing up the opposing side of the OP's argument, allow him or her to say so. I think that it is backing up the OPs side.

I have too many thoughts on this issue to put to text, but I'll try. Actually, I'd rather just ask you a question in case I say something uninformed; to what country is our level of understanding comical? Can you please provide an example of a country with that type of understanding? I am actually curious to see if one exists and functions properly.

I will be the first to admit a mistake, and I have no problem changing my opinions if I realize that they are based on lies, falsities, or truly broken logic. But the 'Headache' comment was unnecessary. I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. I'll debate with you in a courteous manner without trying to insult you.

I can hope that in the future, you'll do the same.

Thank you for being so patient with me, I didn't mean anything by the headache comment but I can see that it was irrelevant and unnecessary.

reply to post by 5MaveN5


There are plenty of ways to make a living without being taxed, I don't get taxed at my new job and I could seriously make a living off it if I wasn't busy with school.

That GoogleAd thing is widely known to be a scam though, not sure why it's being talked about.

I also have a question for you; The US Gov't has been tightening the noose since day one, are you sure this isn't just part of the gradual increase in Gov't power that has always been going on?

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Erase]

True Freedom,
is being able to say NO, without consequence.

I dont believe that can be found anywhere, but there are locations where the degrees vary.

reply to post by Funkydung


Very good post Funky!

I will now watch the videos you were so kind to share.

"A man that does not know he is a slave, will not revolt and a man that does not know he is imprisioned, will not try to escape."

All we can do is try to wake up just one person at a time from the Matrix we are all currently residing in.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by ANOK

From what I have been told, When America entered WWII that was when the tide turned and the American Forces are what won the war.

But and it's a big but, I wasn't around then, I can only repeat what I have learned and history is often misleading.

I have also been taught that the English People displayed a resourceful courage when they were bombarded every night. They even sent their children to the countryside which was a remarkable and unselfishness plan.

War anywhere is horrible.

I do believe that America has always put most of her people's money into the war machine. The US is one of the strongest military nations on the face of the planet (I'm told).

Some conspiracists claim that while Germany may have indeed lost WWII, the Nazi's just moved to America under the care and protection of the Uncle Sam.



Research, Project Paperclip.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by ofhumandescent]

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by ofhumandescent

 

What I find alarming is the gradual infusion of the points brought out here are to the newer America is what they will uphold vehemetly. You see it all the time in the replies given here on ATS in so many replies. I'm 79 and the America that was bountiful and free is no longer and now will never be again. What we see is saddening indeed. Thanks for the thoughts.

Truthiron

Just wanted to be clear on something. Which is the 'bountiful and free' America that is gone and will never be?

Was it the bountiful and free America of the depression during which you were born?

Was it the bountiful and free era of the McCarthy era in which you could be blacklisted if you did not confess your sins or, more importantly, rat your friends/colleagues for their alleged beliefs?

Was it the bountiful and free America that featured institutionalized segregation in the South during your 30s?

or was it the bountiful and free America during which Nixon reigned and J. Edgar Hoover maintained extensive surveilance on people so as to better consolidate his own power?




Every era has its shames and its issue. The past tends to get romanticized just due to its unavailibility, a lot of times.

Just as a baby takes the first step to independence, a man can take the first step to FreeDom. You see freedom Is dominant because it Is. It is a Universal truth though not here on Earth. Perhaps this is because mankind refuses to seA or acknowledge one another as a Neighbor, your Brother.

No?

To be at One with the Universal implies one is one unto their neighbors.
If this makes sense it is because it Is.....as a 'Form' itself Is to thought.
Forms or shadows?
Your choice.

If something does Not make sense, it is because it was not designed to.
I'm sure you 'understand'?

Is all the pain and bloodshed really necessary?
For what purpose, for what End I ask?
Why destroy a 'being' In creation?

If mankind is ~Of~ the Creator, does not mankind have dominion over the Earth as a steward of all creation thereIn? I know of no other creature on Earth which possesses the ability to Create like mankind. Do you? Do you know of another being, besides ET's of course, that is inherently endowed with the abilities to use Reason, to be Rational, to be Logical, to be Ethical, to be Moral or to even understand the concepts of gravity or 'thought' itself? Only mankind can even 'plan' for the future or even enVision himself in the oneness of the Cosmos.

The 'animal kingdom' is surely not so endowed, no?
I suppose this is for a Reason.
A 'Good' one.

Why is this so difficult to Understand?
Seems unReasonable, no?
What other 'traits' can U mention that sets man apart from the 'animal kingdom'?

I suppose this could be called 'Project Self Discovery'.....if you say or rather Do so. Regardless, we have always had choice. No?

One more thing.
Are ET's and Angels mutually exclusive?
Why or why not?
They would both be 'not' of the Earth.
No?

Looking Up.....
~Out Here~
Oh.....Greetings.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by Perseus Apex]

I believe a man by the name of Dr. Kavanaugh of Saint Louis University knows 'this' topic well.

Good for him and his 'students'.
That is 'Good' man indeed.
The Man in black.
He knows what 'I' mean.
lOl


[edit on 3-9-2010 by Perseus Apex]

reply to post by Reign02


Last time I checked, this wasn't a thread about "How does American Freedom compare to that of other countries". Yes, well aware that our freedoms are much more progressive than most, but that certainly doesn't mean that we have to agree with how they are decided upon, to what degree, and more importantly HOW they are implemented, which is exactly what this is about.

I do completely agree, that our freedoms are almost completely unrestricted when compared to dictatorships, but unfortunately that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the fact that "No Taxation without Representation", one of the founding statements in this country has now become "Taxation with Representation by people who represent their own personal agendas", and that we are expected to elect people to represent us to our overfed federal government from a pool of 2 or 3 choices that are equally immoral, just with a different motto.

They say that dictatorships are bad, and America fights to spread democracy, but what we truly have is dictatorship by an entire entity instead of a single person.

I understand that laws are put into place to protect us. Taxes are used to defend us. But when did we lose lending our voice to help them decide? When did we lose the ability to work WITH the government in creating a better existence? Since when did the organization built to work for us become the thing that we are afraid or helpless to work against?

At least with countries that have no freedom KNOW they don't have it, where as here we're blinded by the few things we do have, and completely forget about the things we don't.

I'm pretty sure that hostage takers usually have that same ability. They take and abuse, than reward to make them feel privileged. To put it even more simply, they beat is to near death, bury us 6 feet under, wait a couple hours until the need to escape is stronger than our anger for their abuse, than dig us back up and we thank them for saving us. It's disgusting.

Give me 'that' golden crown in that I may melt it to ingots for the 'begots'.
If this sounds strange you Are correct.
If it sounds reasonable, so Be it.

I'm not all into politics that much, quantum physics, metaphysics, and philosophy are my cup of tea thus when I read about this sort of stuff it makes me realize how much I either A. Need to buy a gun or B. Just leave this terrible country, For they must know about me already and how I already posses knowledge they wouldn't want others to know about. In the end, I really don't need either option, They cannot ever take my spirit. Besides 2012 is right around the corner, follow the link from my signature and prepare your mind/body/soul for whats coming.

Oh yeah.. S&F I'll read the rest of this at home when I'm off work =D

reply to post by 4stral4pprentice


If mankind possessed all the knowledge of 'this' Universe would he not go his own path as a unique creation? Is not each human a 'unique' creation with a 'unique' set of skills, talents and gifts that would benefit humanity collectively? What would One collect in the End? Perhaps One would gain true freedom from oneself as unto another.....as ~Enter ~Cosmos with Cosmic intention. Would not a Creator's favorite passtime not be to witness the creation of creation?

If this sounds exciting, perhaps it Is though how would one know if they know Not? Well, I suppose one could 'try'.
Would not All life on Earth benefit in 'that' End.
I believe so.....

Yes, I agree with one-ness idea since it is *Of* sense.
I believe the term 'open-source' sais quite alot to this End.
Would you Agree?

Homo-Universalis or common man.
Your choice.....

If not.
Why not?
This question is posed to the trolls whom do not bide by the own beat of 'their' Drum.
Please.....click Ear.....


[edit on 3-9-2010 by Perseus Apex]

Want to be free. Free yourself of your clothes and walk around America. This freedom we never had. Freedom is not a definite state of being in any country. What we want is a higher level of freedom, and for that we must pay a high price. Soldiers cannot fight for my freedom. When they do, it enslaves me.