Yay! I'm back in a Marginalized group! :up:

So I'm an atheist, and it seems like the country was ignoring us for a while. Well, since the Muslim bogeyman isn't working as well we're becoming a target again.


From TPM

LA GOPer: November A Choice Between An Atheist Society And A Christian Nation

From the article, Rep. John Fleming (R-LA) states:

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation. So we're going to have to win that battle, we're going to have to solve that argument before we can once again reach across and work together on things.

That's a quote from that article. Now, I live in a semi-socialist Christian democracy here in Malta, a member of the EU and a western European country. Aside from the Christian parts, we have a near absolute freedom of speech and individual freedoms. As a dual citizen of both Malta and America who still considers himself a true American, I find the entirety of this quotes distasteful and entirely untruthful.

In my nation of current residence the only hindrance on free speech is that which "goes against the public morals" i.e. Catholic morals. Aside from religious concerns we are just as free as the USA. And I'd say making us a godless nation would make us far more free.

How is it that clowns like this are actually getting so much popular support?

The clowns are getting so much attention because of stupidity and fear on the part of their followers. They are also looking to amass as much power as they can, which is frightening to me. I'm a practicing pagan, so in as much a marginalized group as any atheist is in today's American. I keep a very low profile because I know my religious beliefs would open me up for all sorts of nastiness from "good, God-fearing Christians". Malta is lovely and I hope to get back one of these days to show my little girl the temples there.

There are two ways to see this.

On one hand, perhaps he is just stating a series of catch lines meant to incite his base?

Then, on the other hand, perhaps it is a divide and conquer strategy?

Regardless, the idea that a "christian" nation would be any more free is laughable at best. I like the christian roots of America, and would like to see christian values continue to prevail. But that is mostly because many of the atheists I have seen in my life are idiots (not saying all are, only a majority of those in my own personal experience) and I have not had very good examples of the thought process at play.

Socialism is a catch phrase in American politics, used any time that they are trying to incite fear. If you tolerate socialism, then by proxy you must support an ultra marxist agenda. It is a popular fallacy used since the end of WWII.

Regardless, You have just pointed out yet another reason why our current crop of elected officials (and their entire parties) needs to be removed from politics and their positions of power.

So I'm an atheist, and it seems like the country was ignoring us for a while. Well, since the Muslim bogeyman isn't working as well we're becoming a target again.

Awwww Poor Poor baby.

Paint yourself a target a little bit more, then set back and continue to wonder why people chastise Atheists.

Atheists get chastised by followers of God for the same reason followers of God get chastised by Atheists.

It's a game, you bought into it by labeling yourself. Stop crying.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation.

I wanted to point out the above quote for people to reflect on.


Maybe it's because I'm outside of the US now, but lets hope he doesn't ever contribute to foreign relations. Words like those only come out of an ignorant fool.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation.

I wanted to point out the above quote for people to reflect on.


Maybe it's because I'm outside of the US now, but lets hope he doesn't ever contribute to foreign relations. Words like those only come out of an ignorant fool.

reply to post by Snarf


Aside from the fact that I found your tone insulting (though I found your ability to communicate tone through text impressive), I understand what you're trying to say.

But I didn't paint a target on myself. I'm the sort of person who prefers to bridge gaps and live with others instead of bringing about conflict. I do enjoy the occasional spirited debate with people, but I'm not one to throw the issue of religion into public politics. I don't want to push my nontheism on others, so I'd prefer it if others didn't try to push their theism on my nation.

America isn't a "godless society". Never has been never will be. The REAL god today though is money. Think on that. Even religions need your money.

What I would like to see is a "godless government". Check out this RATM video:

reply to post by intrepid


I agree. America will always be a nation of many people, so it will never lose theistic influences. However, I disagree with a 'godless government'. I'd prefer to think of it as a 'god neutral' government, that doesn't even consider the issue.

It is NOT freedom from religion.

It is freedom of religion.

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation.

Yes, this comment was detrimental to foreign relations. He could have just not mentioned another country.

I did like the FACT that he did mention our freedom of speech and individual liberties.

I just wonder if he ever voted for a porkulous bill, a Patriot Act bill, a expansion of federal powers, etc etc etc.

As for calling us a Christian Nation, those peeps need to understand it is not a Christian Nation, it is a Nation created on Christian principles.

Namely, to do unto others or to do no harm to another.

Libertarian in me wants to lay it out the proper way-

Everyone has the RIGHT of Life, Liberty and Property. Do no harm to another or infringe upon another's RIGHT to Life, Liberty and Property.

Sometimes I think these politicians need to think before they open their mouths, kind of the mouth leads the thought. They need to phrase their thoughts properly because of the instantaneous dissemination of information.


[edit on 29-8-2010 by saltheart foamfollower]

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
It is NOT freedom from religion.

It is freedom of religion.

Actually, it's both. You can't be free to practice your own religion (or lack of) unless you're free form the religion of others. You wouldn't feel free if you had Sikhs hawking their beliefs at you through the government, would you?

I'm all for the rest of the people in my country being religious in any non-detrimental way they choose (e.g. no child sacrifice or genital mutilation) as long as I'm not harassed and the government remains secular.

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation.

Yes, this comment was detrimental to foreign relations. He could have just not mentioned another country.

Or his comment could have been directed at a country without free speech or individual liberties like...Saudi Arabia or Somalia or somewhere.

I did like the FACT that he did mention our freedom of speech and individual liberties.

I just wonder if he ever voted for a porkulous bill, a Patriot Act bill, a expansion of federal powers, etc etc etc.

Except that he mentioned them as being threatened by 'godlessness'. Last time I checked the Swedes are pretty godless and they've got a nice hold on their liberties.

As for calling us a Christian Nation, those peeps need to understand it is not a Christian Nation, it is a Nation created on Christian principles.

Namely, to do unto others or to do no harm to another.

Do unto others is a pre-Judaic concept as is do no harm. This nation was created on philosophical principles like those of John Locke and Rousseau more than those of any religion.

Libertarian in me wants to lay it out the proper way-

Everyone has the RIGHT of Life, Liberty and Property. Do no harm to another or infringe upon another's RIGHT to Life, Liberty and Property.

Reinforcement of my point that we based our government on Locke, he's the guy that put the whole 'life, liberty, and property' thing forward.

Also, as a libertarian you should be entirely for freedom from religion.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well the freedom FROM religion thing.

I would be alright with NO religion in any federal government type scenario.

Problem is, the federal government permeates everything.

The schools, the roads-by enforcing federal mandates by threatening the purse strings.

I could come up with other example but you get my drift.

Now, about the ONLY thing that I do not agree with the Libertarian party is the open borders thing.

Let me explain, until MY property rights are no longer infringed and my other Rights are re instituted, I do not want to have to supply those that are detrimental to my rights receiving any of the benefits forced out of us, by the theft of my labor and my property.

Heck, if all other rights are re instituted, open the borders.

Just a furtherance of my stance.

Since you are an atheist maybe you could answer some questions for me.

1. Since you know everything how does it all play out in say a couple hundred years from now?

2. How long will I live?

3. How can I become super rich in say less then one year?

4. How does it feel to know every thing about the universe, death, life, beginnings and endings?

5. If you do not know everything is it possible that God exists in the area of your unknown knowledge.

[edit on 29-8-2010 by ACTS 2:38]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

But I didn't paint a target on myself.

Yes you did. When you label yourself anything other than "individual" you openly paint a target on your chest that says "COME GET ME WORLD, because I belong to something!!!"

You asked for what you got. If you don't want to belong to something that is marginalized...then simply don't belong to it.

If you don't believe in God, that doesn't mean you are AN atheist and have to subscribe to the group.

Just believe what you want to believe and tell everyone else to hit the curb.

Or...don't, and create a thread labeling yourself as a victim. That'll help change things alright.

reply to post by Snarf


OK guys, let's keep the atheist/religion debate out of this thread please. There's some of that just don't care for your argument. Can we just discuss the topic? This could be really interesting.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by Snarf

 

OK guys, let's keep the atheist/religion debate out of this thread please. There's some of that just don't care for your argument. Can we just discuss the topic? This could be really interesting.

What are you talking about?

This conversation is about exactly that....atheism and Christianity...it's about religion, so i fail to see where your comments are valid in any way shape or form.


From the OP himself:

So I'm an atheist, and it seems like the country was ignoring us for a while. Well, since the Muslim bogeyman isn't working as well we're becoming a target again.

Key words "So im an atheist" "country ignoring us for a while" "we are becoming a target again"

"We" in this case refers to "atheists"

Or even better, from the Article in the OP:

We are either going to go down the socialist road and become like western Europe and create, I guess really a godless society, an atheist society. Or we're going to continue down the other pathway where we believe in freedom of speech, individual liberties and that we remain a Christian nation. So we're going to have to win that battle, we're going to have to solve that argument before we can once again reach across and work together on things.

Atheism v.s. Christianity


Please...try not to derail topics, Intrepid. Our conversation was 100% on topic. TYVM


[edit on 29-8-2010 by Snarf]

reply to post by Snarf


I didnt think the thread was about religion vs atheism. I thought it was about politicians using the threat of America becoming a godless nation as leverage in the elections.

Im actually surprised there isnt more drum beating going on seeing as how November is inching closer. Kinda makes you wonder what "shock and awe" they have up their sleeve that makes them feel they dont need to rouse the rabble to quite the level they normally do.

Even this attempt to make it seem as if atheism is a threat to the US is pretty limp wristed compared to the rhetoric these guys often sling.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower



You're absolutely right about everything except the being founded on Christian principles thing.

I mean, there is an element of Christian principles but it's only by proxy. America is founded upon the principles of Natural Law, which while is in basis founded on Christian principles, evolved in such a manner that by the time of this nations birth Natural Law really has no relation to Christian principles what so ever.

This is clear because the Natural Law we are based on is most similar to that of Thomas Paine's ideas. And Thomas Paine is far from a Christian.

Simply on the virtue of being born a sovereign being, you are awarded certain rights that no one can prohibit unless you yourself violate the rights of another.

That in a nutshell is the basis from what this country was founded on and while like I said, it has it's founding with Thomas Aquinas and Christian theology, several hundred years drastically changes the perception a concept has as it evolves and the people who think about the concept evolve.

Is there ever going to be a time in this country when the fekking atheists understand that there is "Freedom OF religion" and NOT freedom FROM religion!?!? Maybe if the fekking atheists stopped attacking anyone who had a belief, they would no longer be targets, eh???

Originally posted by kozmo
Is there ever going to be a time in this country when the fekking atheists understand that there is "Freedom OF religion" and NOT freedom FROM religion!?!? Maybe if the fekking atheists stopped attacking anyone who had a belief, they would no longer be targets, eh???

To be fair on the atheists, when they lived in complete isolation and hid their atheist beliefs a while back they were usually attacked as well.

Repeatedly.

With torture.