Deity only answers Muslim, Christian, or Jewish Prayers?

Originally posted by bogomil
Re: Mikahel, djinni and others involved.

First of all, the earth IS flat. The simplest, but not correct, argument for it being a globe is, that you'll start by seeing the mast of a ship approaching, later all of the ship. The reason for this is, that the flat earth, at centrum, rests on a turtle and the edge sags. As to satellite photos etc. they only demonstrate the existence of a conspiracy.

This is disturbing. But I will not try to dismiss you outright. I will study more of this. Thanks for pointing that out.

Originally posted by bogomil
Bees can see into ultraviolet frequences, which they experience as a colour (well, at least the bees I've asked about it). Probably are a lot of the experiences generally called paranormal, anomalous, supernatural etc just a momentary enhancement of standard human senses, where we recieve signals, which are a perfectly 'natural' part of cosmos.

Yes I can understand that but as usual some people will ask you to prove it as science or else you'll be labelled as deluded.

Originally posted by bogomil
So to those requesting experience before having opinions (in this context a peculiar condition; I'm 'Bogomil the great', and to have opinions on that, you have to experience this postulate from the inside first. Nonsense)..to those I can only say, that I have experienced this kind of anomalies, and I'm even less christian now than before.

And you cried when that happen? Hmm... You have discovered repentance and yet you did not surrender your soul and have faith? I'm sorry for you, my friend Perhaps you need baptist once more and I mean not simply pouring water on your head and hope.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

Originally posted by AllIsOne
Deity only answers Muslim, Christian, or Jewish Prayers?

My experience is that He pretty much does what He wants ... no matter who is praying to Him and no matter what they are asking for. He seems rather fickle to me.

reply to post by Mykahel

I don't agree with the statement that God is everything or In everything. I think He is capable of being everywhere and having all power (Omnipresent and omnipotent) but God is not all things.

This god is or is not omnipresent and omniscient if it is then there is nowhere it is not and if there is nowhere it is not then there is nothing it is not.

In order for there to be somewhere it is not, requires a something else (which would immediately negate its' omniscience) this would preclude your god being the creator of all that there is qed.

Pleas bear in mind I don't make any claims about this god only point out scriptural claims.

For instance, God is not a toaster, or a sandal, a cup or a ping pong ball. God is not a mountain or a tree or a star. He is God.

The god of the judeaochrsitian scripture is claimed to be the creator of everything are you implying it is not ?

You say he is a god ,are you implying one of a variety if so this changes the discussion if not I refer you to my previous response.

Any scripture reference to Him being something is simply simile or metaphor to describe His nature/character, not His actual physical or spiritual being.

Here you imply that any conclusions made by reading scripture are merely guesswork, although I must add that many of the scriptures are quite specific in relation to the nature of this god (yahwhe/jesus) and leave no room for doubt.

Nevertheless if as you are now claiming this god is described in simile and metaphor, who is the final arbiter or authority on deciphering what is alleged to be scriptures either written or inspired by this god?

Clearly if the method of understanding what this so called god is all about is simile and metaphor , then that leaves no room for absolutes and makes a complete mockery of several thousand years of claims to authority.

God desires for a relationship with people because God

You cannot speak with any authority on this as you've previously stated that scripture is based upon simile and metaphor, so perhaps you should add this is what you believe or your interpretation, ie your guess is as good and no less incorrect as mine.


Nevertheless if your god is the creator of all that there is ( if not you have to explain who or what created what it didn't) this would preclude it's desire/want. Desire/want implies something other, and this simply cannot be if it is the creator of everything. Omnipotence and omniscience precludes want either something is or it is not.

He created us with the intention of showing us that love and of being loved in return.

Again, this you cannot speak with any authority on, as you have previously stated you have to negotiate your way through simile and metaphor, unless of course you are now changing your mind and claiming this as an absolute .

But yet again if this is an absolute, then it would cause more problems as the creator of everything (first cause) would have to have created something to love it in return in order to express the experience. Being first cause this could not in any way be a genuine experience and is somewhat of a paradox not unlike the "How do we know what chicken should really taste like scene" from The Matrix.


Again implying intention implies something there is not, which again would preclude omniscience/omnipresence.

God can create anything He wants,

If this being is the omniscient omnipresent creator of everything, then there can be nothing that is not created, and this precludes want.

but for Him to actually receive love, it has to be given freely by us as we have the free will to choose to do so.

According to your scriptures, loving this god is commanded unless of course it is a simile or metaphor, then that changes things and makes your absolute claim redundant.


The commandment to "love" (and incidentally also fear) leaves no room for free will, as there is a penalty for not doing so. You are therefore obliged to act in a given manner for fear of the consequences for acting in another.


To act in a manner that you were not created to , would preclude the omniscience of your alleged creator thus requiring something else which would then preclude omnipresence.

Reading between the lines it would appear that your god has created you sick and is commanding you to get better.!!



[edit on 31-8-2010 by The Djin]

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said:

"What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying,

"What is the tortoise standing on?"

"You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

Story from Stephen Hawkings book, "A Brief History of Time".

reply to post by EasternShadow



Originally posted by The Djin
You seem to laughing at yourself my friend, after several thousands of years of access to the "power" of prayer why is it that the most religious nation on earth spends trillions on health insurance ?

Yes and people still pray even after spending trillions on health insurance because it doesn't matter.

What doesn't matter exactly ?

They claim is that praying to an invisible man in the sky has an effect, as I've previously pointed out there is no measurable evidence of this claim in relation to sickness thus, the claim is -

A a lie

B a delusion

Yet another observation is that many who make the claims in relation to praying, not only fail to provide the evidence but in relation to sickness seek science to alleviate the problem.

One can then logically conclude that they tried praying and it didn't work or they didn't believe it would to begin with and sought out medical science.

And your response to this was ? -

it doesn't matter.

Hm, this pretty sums up the intellectual vacuum that many (but not all) christian types appear to live in. There are some very engaging apologists on ATS but you are currently falling well below the mark and are not only making yourself look foolish with your vacuou replies but are somewhat of an embarrassment to their cause and completely de edify yourself.

If you wish to further engage with me in debate may a suggest that you actually think about what your saying before you respond otherwise you'll just end up in the deluded sheeple box.





[edit on 31-8-2010 by The Djin]

Originally posted by The Djin
What doesn't matter exactly ?

They claim is that praying to an invisible man in the sky has an effect, as I've previously pointed out there is no measurable evidence of this claim in relation to sickness thus, the claim is -

A a lie

B a delusion

Yet another observation is that many who make the claims in relation to praying, not only fail to provide the evidence but in relation to sickness seek science to alleviate the problem.

One can then logically conclude that they tried praying and it didn't work or they didn't believe it would to begin with and sought out medical science.

You see. This is where you are wrong. It's the other way round. We seek medical first. If the medical fail then we pray. You can spend trillions on health insurance and continue with your rubbish opinion about praying, that's your choice. It does not concern me. But many people still spend money and pray because health insurance does not guarantee that you'll be 100% healthy now and then. What if you're dying due to cancer and doctor proclaim you can't live long? No amount of medical experts can save you. Do you honestly believe trillion of money invested before, matter any more? So what are you going to do? Give up? Commit suicide? Crying hopelessly? For me, I'll pray to the last day and let God decide what's best. If He decide I'll should be cured and live, then I will live happily. Else, it will be my fate and I'll still happily accept it. That's what surrendering one soul is all about.

You might ask why bother on medical treatment if you can pray? Because God want you to depend on yourself first. You have to work it out with God's Law of Nature. Cause and Effect. This is where God going to test you whether you're sincere or whether He should intervene or not . But of course, this is just delusion for you. How would you understand this. For you, there is no miracle.

Still my response; It doesn't matter if I spend trillions for health insurance, I'll still going to pray.

Originally posted by The Djin
Hm, this pretty sums up the intellectual vacuum that many (but not all) christian types appear to live in. There are some very engaging apologists on ATS but you are currently falling well below the mark and are not only making yourself look foolish with your vacuou replies but are somewhat of an embarrassment to their cause and completely de edify yourself.


If you wish to further engage with me in debate may a suggest that you actually think about what your saying before you respond otherwise you'll just end up in the deluded sheeple box.

As I can see, you are the one calling people deluded and liars first. When you fail to understand, you continue to attack others. You're the type who will use emotion first before brain. And even then you're not using it to think deep.

You disappoint me. Good day.




[edit on 31-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

[edit on 31-8-2010 by EasternShadow]

It's turtles all the way down. TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN! You get it? The turtles, and then more of them going downward? And the back of the turtle has more turtles on it? You get it?

I like turtles.

Re: EasternShadow

Thanks for your comment.

I don't have any fixed position on super/paranormal experiences as compared to scientific approach. Both sides need to work closer together. And I'm absolutely not presenting my material as conclusive 'evidence'. This is, for western thinking, an area needing much basic research.

My emotional agitation was actually part of the pagan part of the ritual, I was invited to join in. And while I can be timid in some life-situations, I would never dream of associating a strong emotional state with repentance in a 'spiritual' meaning. What happened was, that I was overwhelmed by the sheer beauty of nature, seen from a very unusual point of observation (my enhanced awareness). Guess any wiccan would have given much to experience this.

Thanks for your concern of my soul, by trying to convert me. I will be equally caring about you, suggesting that you leave christianity, as I did when I was 15.

reply to post by EasternShadow

You see. This is where you are wrong. It's the other way round. We seek medical first. If the medical fail then we pray

Then quite obviously you don't trust god/yahwhe/jesus to cure your illness you put your trust in a doctor or a pharmacist first . If this fails then, you are saying you resort to asking an invisible man in the sky to cure your illness.

This can also be called last ditch wishful thinking, where your praying god has become a form of "complementary medicine" ie the placebo effect.

Come on mate, if praying to your god actually worked then the idea of medicine would be redundant or only of use to an atheist.

But there again if praying to the godman actually worked then an atheist is less likely to use medicine and would less likely be an atheist.

Again, you still have not provided any evidence of the effectiveness of prayer to your go in relation to sickness. On the contrary, by admitting that prayer is a last resort when medicine fails (when science has not yet found the answer) you destroy any case you believed you had.

reply to post by The Djin


Re-read my post. I have edit it twice before your post.

Thanks and Good Day.

Being an amateur reiki healer, I've seen some pretty amazing things. Healing taking place, after medicine had given up in one terminal case. I can stop nine out of ten headaches in ten minutes.

I'm not chestbeating, a lot of people could do that. Rather I'm surprised and curious about it.

Neither I, nor the patient wanted any religion mixed up in the treatment. Actually the patient would have been very uncooperative, if I had suggested this, as he is a total atheist.

Such 'miracles' happen in all kinds of contexts. In religions with a god, religious-like systems without a god, amongst atheists, amongst agnostics and amongst indigenous polytheistic nature religons.

Until we know, what's happening and how, it's meaningless to ascribe the phenomenon to any specific reason. And especially for any single religion to copyright it as 'proof' of its own doctrines.

Like the abomination: 'Intelligent design', one of the most stupid slogans ever cooked up.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by bogomil]

Originally posted by The Djin

This god is or is not omnipresent and omniscient if it is then there is nowhere it is not and if there is nowhere it is not then there is nothing it is not.

In order for there to be somewhere it is not, requires a something else (which would immediately negate its' omniscience) this would preclude your god being the creator of all that there is qed.

Pleas bear in mind I don't make any claims about this god only point out scriptural claims.

You're using twisted logic here. Luckily God attributes don't depend on your understanding them. Thats about all I have to say here.

The god of the judeaochrsitian scripture is claimed to be the creator of everything are you implying it is not ?

You say he is a god ,are you implying one of a variety if so this changes the discussion if not I refer you to my previous response.

And here you begin again with the twisting of what I have said and for this reason any respect for you that I might have had is now gone. I never said that God was not the creator of everything. God created all matter, and is the creator of everything. There is nothing that exists that was not brought into existence by Him.

Here you imply that any conclusions made by reading scripture are merely guesswork, although I must add that many of the scriptures are quite specific in relation to the nature of this god (yahwhe/jesus) and leave no room for doubt.

Nevertheless if as you are now claiming this god is described in simile and metaphor, who is the final arbiter or authority on deciphering what is alleged to be scriptures either written or inspired by this god?

Clearly if the method of understanding what this so called god is all about is simile and metaphor , then that leaves no room for absolutes and makes a complete mockery of several thousand years of claims to authority.

Again with the twisting. I never implied anything of the sort. I said that calling God a material thing, such as a rock (As He is called a rock and firm foundation) is done to help us understand His nature. God is not a literal rock. You are right, many of the scriptures, not using metaphor and simile to describe God as a thing, give very clear insight as to who he is. That's about the only thing you've got right so far.

Sometimes you have to use things that are known to explain the unknown. I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this to you though.

You cannot speak with any authority on this as you've previously stated that scripture is based upon simile and metaphor, so perhaps you should add this is what you believe or your interpretation, ie your guess is as good and no less incorrect as mine.

I never said scripture was based on metaphor and simile, so here you go again not only twisting what I said but putting words in my mouth. God is sometimes described using simile and metaphor. The scriptures are inspired by God and at some places dictated by Him and are based in absolute truth.

Nevertheless if your god is the creator of all that there is ( if not you have to explain who or what created what it didn't) this would preclude it's desire/want. Desire/want implies something other, and this simply cannot be if it is the creator of everything. Omnipotence and omniscience precludes want either something is or it is not.

Can God have a relationship of love with Himself? Again, your logic is flawed here and I have no need to argue the point.

Again, this you cannot speak with any authority on, as you have previously stated you have to negotiate your way through simile and metaphor, unless of course you are now changing your mind and claiming this as an absolute .

You either just really misunderstood what I said, which is the way I wish I could look at it, or you just have to keep twisting what I say to make your point. That's pathetic. Moving on...

But yet again if this is an absolute, then it would cause more problems as the creator of everything (first cause) would have to have created something to love it in return in order to express the experience. Being first cause this could not in any way be a genuine experience and is somewhat of a paradox not unlike the "How do we know what chicken should really taste like scene" from The Matrix.


Again implying intention implies something there is not, which again would preclude omniscience/omnipresence.

Maybe try rewording this and I'll bother responding, cause it sounds like the rest of your post so far.

If this being is the omniscient omnipresent creator of everything, then there can be nothing that is not created, and this precludes want.

At one point, there was nothing, no matter, nothing to make anything from. God decides to then create everything in the sense that He made all matter out of nothing. Obviously human hands put together the first car, dvd player, whatever. Do you get the point yet? God wanting Love does not cause contradiction with His creation of all things.

According to your scriptures, loving this god is commanded unless of course it is a simile or metaphor, then that changes things and makes your absolute claim redundant.

The commandment to "love" (and incidentally also fear) leaves no room for free will, as there is a penalty for not doing so. You are therefore obliged to act in a given manner for fear of the consequences for acting in another.

Nope, the command to love is clear, not metaphor. You can get off that point now since you clearly dont understand it...
Do you fear your father? Does your father demanding love and fear mean that your love and fear cannot be genuine? The fear is a result of respect and understanding who God is, something you do not have.

To act in a manner that you were not created to , would preclude the omniscience of your alleged creator thus requiring something else which would then preclude omnipresence.

God could know we were going to fall and rebel against our purpose. That doesn't in any way conflict with His omniscience.

Reading between the lines it would appear that your god has created you sick and is commanding you to get better.!!

And it's your reading between the lines that shows your inability to understand anything the scriptures have to say. Must have skipped the lines about Christ's sacrifice for us.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by The Djin


PS. Just wanted you to know that your post spurred me on to writing what is no doubt the most disrespectful post I've written here on ATS. Given your outright disrespect for the others here and the fact that you stoop so low as to twist peoples words and put other words in their mouths, I think it's rightly deserved.

If I feel you post anything of significance, I may be back. For now, I'm done with this thread. As Christ said, don't through your pearls to the swine. I'm shaking the dust off my feet regarding you and this thread. If you have any understanding of the scriptures, you might know what that means.

edit: Added you as a foe but then I saw it said respected foe and worthy adversary, of which you are neither. Just thought you should know.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel

Must have skipped the lines about Christ's sacrifice for us.

Oops sorry to skip that bit, here goes-

It is claimed that the Jesus charter that appears in the the NT is one and the same being as yahwhe who'd once again taken on human form in order to communicate a little more effectively than what he did last time.

This time he had himself be known as jesus and had changed his mind about the blood letting of lambs, doves and such in order to appease him.

This time around he hits on the idea of becoming his own son yet magically remaining himself then have his creation kill him.
Clearly the people who he had kill him had no choice in this matter or we would not be having this debate right now.

Not to digress to much - Once yahweh had himself tortured and killed for no other reason than he wanted his creation to act according to his will, he then makes the claim that he had sacrificed his own son who was also himself.

Somehow 200 years later I get dragged into this crazy affair, yet I wasn't even there because if I was, as a morally upstanding decent human being I would have made every effort to prevent this appalling human sacrifice (which I happen to find repugnant) taking place.

Nevertheless, when we look to the past with a reasoning mind the whole affair was bit of a joke on us if it ever took place.

The very nature of crucifixion was the intent to cause as much sufferng to the individual as possible. Well it turns out that jesus was only hanging for a couple of days, the average criminal was stretched out for at least 5 or more if possible.

Not only did jesus get off very lightly when it came to suffering he came back to life a couple of days later !

So the upshot of it all was no one actually died, well of course an omnipotent being cannot die can he, now that would be silly.

There you go then my friend no one sacrificed anything or anyone because no one died, and the entire nonsensical affair was his own idea to begin with so not a very omniscient god either.


Dude you got conned ask for your money back.

reply to post by Mykahel

Given your outright disrespect for the others here

Hey come on now you're being a little unfair, I've plenty of respect for people dude but I certainly am not obliged to respect totally unfounded beliefs that is absurd.

Beliefs are merely ideas which are changeable, I'm not throwing my toys in the dirt if someone thinks I as an atheist am influenced by satan.

Stop getting all girl on me dude try asking yourself how would jesus re pond in a debate such as this and try and emulator him perhaps. You never know we may get along like a house on fire if we allow our beliefs to be open to hard criticism .

reply to post by AllIsOne


Jesus never said be a certain religion did he? God hears all prayers from all people, and he will answer them all no answer is still an answer.

Prayer is asking for things to go your way basically. Examine your purity of intent.

I prayed one prayer to G-d last week that I felt I was being manipulative and saying what I thought he might want me to say so he would help.

Keep it simple:
Thy will be done and Thank you. The first one (thy will be done) is like a tight rope walker being blind folded and shuttling you across in a wheelbarrow. Now if riding in that wheelbarrow isnt faith, trust and surrender I dont know what is.

I cant tell you how many times I have cussed at him, been mad, pitched a fit, cried, tried to make a liar out of him, and he never once got angry, rejected me, cast me out, but always eventually comforted me. If you get angry at him it means you believe...he likes that.

Tell a religious person(Muslim, Jew, especially Christian) this and they will start telling you all sorts of nonsense and bog ya down with all sorts of law and guilt.
You want to know why G-d created you? Not to worship him but to have relations with you.

If anyone wants to be worshipped it would be Satan. G-d calls you to be free...eventually all the dust and mud falls off that you picked up along the way. He knows this.

Saying beware Satan comes as an angel of goodness basically locks the religious person up in fear,suspicion, and judgement. Don't listen to them.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by superluminal11]

reply to post by superluminal11


I mean this is the most respectful way possible, but you confuse me. You speak of God and leave out the vowel as Jew would due to reverence of the Lord's name. Not many who are not of one of the Abrahamic faiths would do that. You also speak of God wanting a personal relationship, a concept not entirely unique to Christianity but fairly rare among any religion.

I agree that God desires that relationship, and that He would rather you believe and be angry at Him than to not believe, but I wouldn't necessarily say He is happy about you being mad at Him. It didn't go over too well for Job, as even though he ended up being blessed, he was definitely put in his place by God.

On a more personal note, how would you describe your faith if you aren't a Jew, Christian or Muslim? This is more out of my own personal curiosity than anything so I understand if you decline to answer.

Re: Superluminal11

I don't want to sound un-necessarily harsh, but what was the purpose of your post? I can't find your point, and as Mykahel I would be interested in a clarification.



[edit on 1-9-2010 by bogomil]

Mykahel

Looks like the debate has become entrenched in certain polarities. Maybe changing to basic doctrines of the various 'praying-to-god' groups can break this.

It's always easier to relate to things clearly defined (definition ofcourse not implying or meaning 'truth').



[edit on 1-9-2010 by bogomil]