Scythians preceded Sumerians? Also Scythian & Ireland Connection

Hello all! I am currently reading the book "Genesis of the Grail Kings" by Laurence Gardner. It is a fascinating book and the first part of the book they are trying to correctly date the important parts of the old testament and find out where the early jews came from and where their stories came from.

The author makes great points that the early jews came out of Sumeria and Babylon, making many valid points. I am at a point in the book where they mention a group of people called Scythians. The author is claiming that the Scythians preceded the Sumerians and that the Scythian script is very close to the Sumerian script.

I had thought that the Sumerians were the first to do many things, including using the wheel and written language, but the author is almost saying that the Scythians gave them both these technologies. Let me quote a part of the book from the 8th chapter titled "When Kingship was Lowered", subtitled "Where Heaven and Earth Met":

Quite apparently, the Anunnaki tradition was not an original aspect of Sumer, confined to a boundaried region above the Persian Gulf as has long been supposed, but was much wider spread within the Fertile Crescent and beyond - even across Central Europe to the Balkans.

As detailed in The Times Atlas of the Bible, a settlement called Scythopolis (or Beth-shean: House of Power) was established south of Damascus in Galilee. With shean being a derivative of sidhean, it relates (as is apparent in the alternative name Scythopolis) to being of Scythian origin. It was announced by the British Assyriologist Sir Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, in his 1853 address to the Royal Asiatic Society that the Scythians from the Black Sea regions were the early occupiers of Akkad in Mesopotamia - a fact which we encountered in Chapter 4. Even Scythian writings from 1000 years before the earliest Sumerian script (29) are identical to those of early Akkad.

The Scythian warlords of the Sidhe (a transcendent intellect called the Web of the Wise) originated in the Carpathians and Russian steppe-lands to become a migratory race who took their culture far and wide - as far as Ireland to the West and Mongolia to the East. Indeed, the very name of Ur (the capital of Sumer) came from the Scythian word Ur, meaning 'Lord', while the settlement of Anu was not in Sumer where one might expect to find it, but hundreds of miles to the north on the Caspian Sea.

The advanced town of Damascus, founded in Syria at about the same time as stonehenge was erected in the South of England, gained it's name from Damuz (tammus or Dumi-zi) the consort of Anunnaki Queen Inanna, granddaughter of Enlil. Moreover, in accordance with the oldest Scythian custom, Damuz's festival is still celebrated in parts of the Balkans today(30).

29. The subject of the Transylvanian script and it's related archaeological discovery is discussed at length in Gardner, L., Realm of the Ring Lords, pp. 66-70.

30. O'Brien, Christian and Barbara Joy, Genius of the Few, Dianthus, Cirncester, 1999, p. 121.

you can read about the Realm of the Ring Lords here:
graal.co.uk...
Before i read this part of the book i can't really recall hearing about the Scythians. I was very familiar with the Sumerians and Babylonians but to claim that there were a group of nomads who preceded the Sumerians would be quite fascinating and i would love to find out more information about them.

Sadly, i can't really confirm that their writing is older than the Sumerians. If anything, i have found that the Scythians did NOT have writing. So what is the deal?

And on a side note, i found the following very fascinating. While doing some Scythian research i found this Scotish Declaration of Arbroath from 1320 which was the Scotish version of the Declaration of Independence, whom the US could have borrowed the idea from. from the website:

The Declaration of Arbroath was written in Latin and promulgated on April 6th, 1320, at Arbroath Abbey (on the east coast of Scotland, just north of St. Andrews, the home of golf). Its purpose was to convince Pope John XXII, resident in Avignon, France, that Scotland was an independent country. This rebutted the English claim to rule Scotland. Famed Scottish leader, Robert the Bruce, had defeated the English at Bannockburn in 1314, and recaptured Berwick-on-Tweed (a city on the border with England) from the English in 1319.

Particularly interesting is that the Declaration claims a connection between the Scots and the Scythians, and also mentions the Exodus of the Children of Israel from Egypt. The ancient tribe of the Scythians once lived in the area to which the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel" were deported by the Assyrian Empire (according to the Bible and historical sources).

Another Scottish connection to the Scythians is that, according to legend, Andrew, one of Christ's apostles, preached to the Scythians. St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland. The Scottish flag contains a Cross of Saint Andrew.

www.giveshare.org...

I haven't had much time to look into this bit of history, but i wonder if the Knights Templars had anything to do with this. I find the timing very interesting because it is reported that the Templars fled from France between 1307 and 1312 when the pope disbanded the group and some think that they went into Scotland, which there is an obvious link to freemasonry. The scotish (maybe some templars) right this amazing declaration to the church and 400 years later the Americans (mostly freemasons) write a very similar declaration of independence.

But to summarize and ask the question once again, did the Scythians have a written language 1000 years before the Sumerians, putting the Scythian language back to 5000 BC? If that is true, shouldn't we be try to find out more about these elusive Scythian people? I am already upset that not much talk comes from the Sumerians, who were obviously the original story tellers of most of the Old Testament.

And lastly, i would like to share a song by Andrew Bird who wrote a song mentioning the Scythians:




Five day forecast bring black tar rains and hellfire
while handpicked handpicked handler's kid gloves tear at the inseams
their Halliburton attach cases are useless
while scotch guard Macintoshes shall be carbonized
now theyre offering views of exiting empire
such breathtaking views of Scythian empires

Scythian empire, horsemen of the Russia steppe
Scythian empire, archers of an afterthought
Routed by Sarmations, thwarted by the Thracians
Scythian empire

Scythian empire, exiting empire
Scythian empire, exiting empire
Routed by Sarmations, thwarted by the Thracians
Scythian empire
Kings of Macedonia, Scythian empire

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


If you're interested in the Scythians check out a book by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor titled From Scythia to Camelot. It presents the hypothesis that the Arthurian legends don't actually originate in England, but are instead a retelling of Scythian history.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


Thanks for the lead, i'll check that out. That reminds me of the theory that many of the royal kings of europe are descendants of Jesus & Mary Magdalene when Mary took Jesus' bloodline into southern France.

well done I have been saying for years that us irish are probly more scythian than celtic, scythia is mentiond so many times in our mythology that its hard to belive that we are considerd a celtic race,

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
well done I have been saying for years that us irish are probly more scythian than celtic, scythia is mentiond so many times in our mythology that its hard to belive that we are considerd a celtic race,

wow i didn't know that about the irish mythology, i will have to look into that. This is why i love ATS, replies can lead to very interesting things.

Ive never heard of Scythian culture pre dating Sumer, Ubaid culture is the only one traceable to predate Sumer.

Scythia evidence dates them from 700 BC, unless there is evidence available before, until about 300 AD when they fade from History, absorbed by other cultures and empires.

They were expert horsemen and terrifying warriors. The book about Conan the barbarian is based on the stories of these Warriors, the women fought as hard as men and had equal status on battlefields and culture. Fascinating culture; they used Cannabis in rituals, nomadic and mentioned in the Bible due to their terrifying battle strategies.

But there is no evidence they predated sumer, the earliest known data dates them to about 700 B.C.

Originally posted by ariel bender

Ive never heard of Scythian culture pre dating Sumer, Ubaid culture is the only one traceable to predate Sumer.

Scythia evidence dates them from 700 BC, unless there is evidence available before, until about 300 AD when they fade from History, absorbed by other cultures and empires.

They were expert horsemen and terrifying warriors. The book about Conan the barbarian is based on the stories of these Warriors, the women fought as hard as men and had equal status on battlefields and culture. Fascinating culture; they used Cannabis in rituals, nomadic and mentioned in the Bible due to their terrifying battle strategies.

But there is no evidence they predated sumer, the earliest known data dates them to about 700 B.C.

Thats what i had thought, that the Scythians dated to around 700BC. The Ubaid are connected with the Scythians to some degree, atleast some people think. Here is some information i found on the Ubaid & Scythian connection. I think that the author from the Grail Kings saw the Ubaid as Scythian:

However, recent research confirms that the original Sumerians were descended from the Ubaid, a proto-Aryan, Pictish culture which originated in the region encompassing Carpathia, Transylvania and the White Mountains where the Greek gods originated, which later became known as Scythia.

It is suggested therefore that the Sumerian gods (the ancient deific royal family) were imported with the Ubaid Picts from Transylvania, Carpathia and Scythia. Scholars relate that the name Sumer is pronounced Shumer, the sh for s indicating a linguistic relationship with early Goidelic, and thus it is closely related by pronunciation to the Gaelic Sumaire, meaning, as we know, a vampire and a "reptile" - a Dragon.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

[edit on 28-8-2010 by BeastMaster2012]

I fail to see how the Scythians were connected to the Sumerians or Ubaid cultures. The Scythians came along thousands of years later. Their language family was Indo-Iranian.

Its a good bet the Scythians that pushed furthest to the west and north into Europe merged with populations of Celts, just as Celts merged with Ibernians when they pushed into the Andalusian peninsula.

reply to post by Lucifersjester


Well they are considered part of the Celtic Language family, because they are. Similarly they held culture that was analogous to the other Celtic groups. You find (for example) Druids in Gaelic (there was NO Ireland the single nation till well after Christian times began), Cymric, and Gaulish cultures. Thus you have a linguistic and cultural link.

There are no Genetic markers for "race" (a useless term anyhow), and thus you must rely on culture and language to classify them.

Scythia were another member of the Indo-European language tree, and thus it is quiet easy to see why one considers them like the Celts. They were like wise similar to the Germanic tribes. But not the same.

is the book saying saying the Scythians had something to do with early Sumerian Development? Because I have never heard of a Scythian city?
I know the Bible says Abraham came from UR but it seems he wasn't Sumerian
and I understood that the Sumerians were not Semitic

I 'll think about this awhile but I have some quibbles with it in that Sumerian Literature never mentions Horses and Scythian or any PIE peoples would not be who they are without the horse I never heard of Scythian script or Irish or Celtic script either they didn't write much and if they did it some version of Ogham not very fluent or detailed . Whereas Sumerian Literature is very well developed for transitioning all kinds of abstract thought's and ideas as well.
They are like apples and oranges

I'm really interested in this book though

I am very fascinated with ancient civilizations. The Sumerians are obviously one of the oldest and greatest civilizations. The jews are very fascinating also, since they are one of the longest surviving groups of people from the ancient world.

What is even more amazing are the number of connections between judaism and ancient civilizations. Jews are everywhere almost! They are in Egypt, in Greece, Sumeria, Babylon and even the Romans. Almost all ancient civilizations interacted with the jews. The most important thing, to me, is finding out where these ancient civilizations came from. I am beginning to see that the jews originated from Sumeria and went to egypt and canaan.

The Bible explains that the Bloodline story began with Adam and Eve, from whose third son Seth evolved a line which progressed through Methuselah, Noah and, eventually, to Abraham who became the great patriarch of the Hebrew nation. The text relates that Abraham brought his family westwards out of Mesopotamia (present day Iraq) to the land of Canaan (Palestine), from where some of his descendants moved into Egypt. After many generations, they journeyed back into Canaan where, in time, David of Bethlehem became king of the newly defined kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

www.karenlyster.com...

One of the most amazing similarities between Jews and Sumerians is the fact that the Sumerian Kings and descendants of Adam lived a very long time. The Sumerian King List shows some Kings ruling for 28,000 years, and some ruling for only a few years. From Adam to Moses you have some reaching almost 1000 years. Obviously this probably didn't happen, but we will probably never know. Did the jews just take that idea from the Sumerians, much like most of their bible stories? Did they just borrow the Sumerian
tales and make them their own on their way out of UR?

Sumerian king list:
www.livius.org...

Moses Genealogy:
www.mazzaroth.com...

So the question i have, is where did the Sumerians come from? Did they come from the north? Were they more white then dark? If they were more white and had large beards, they probably came from the north from around where the Scythians ruled.

The book is claiming that the Scythians writing seemed to predate the Sumerians, but i don't see that anywhere on the interwebs. He seems to be basing this on an old book or some other knowledge.

All i know is that our history is written by the winners and i am fairly confident that most of what we know about "history" is wrong. I am not saying that the author is right, but i just wouldn't completely believe everything the history books tell us. We are still being told that Columbus was the first person to discover America which is complete BS.

I don't know where the Sumerians came from ,most people have tales of origins and being from someplace else ,but the Sumerians say that were created by Gods to work for them.

they don't seem to have a collective recollection of being from anywhere except Sumer
I think that the myths and stories of Sumer deal with an ancient conflict between settled agriculturists and semi nomadic herdsmen, and more widely Patriarchy vs Matriarchy

I did how ever read on the interwebs that the Kurds are the original peoples of Northern Iraq for at least 30 thousand years and they don't have any origin except that

maybe there is a connection Just throwing ideas out there

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
What is even more amazing are the number of connections between judaism and ancient civilizations. Jews are everywhere almost! They are in Egypt, in Greece, Sumeria, Babylon and even the Romans.

You're thinking Bibliocentrically. Remember the great civilizations of the East had no contact with them, nor did those of the Indus valleys or the Mound Builders of North America, the pre-Olmec civilizations of South and Central America. As far as we can tell, the Sumerians "originated" there and collected into larger groups toward the end of the last ice age when dryer conditions forced people to live closer to water and roaming bands came into contact with each other and began to negotiate for resources.

The most important thing, to me, is finding out where these ancient civilizations came from.

Generally, from the area where they lived. Homo sapiens was widely distributed across the planet by that time and was turning into a very successful species. Greater numbers of people plus limited resources led to larger bands and changes in lifestyle and trade.

One of the most amazing similarities between Jews and Sumerians is the fact that the Sumerian Kings and descendants of Adam lived a very long time. The Sumerian King List shows some Kings ruling for 28,000 years, and some ruling for only a few years. From Adam to Moses you have some reaching almost 1000 years. Obviously this probably didn't happen, but we will probably never know. Did the jews just take that idea from the Sumerians, much like most of their bible stories?

It's quite possible. In the era of the early city-states, there seems to be a drive for each one to make itself important by claiming lineage to a god or a demigod. The 'our rulers live a long time' concept shows up in the Middle East around 2500 BC (so the earliest kings lists didn't have long-lived mythological kings). Wikipedia dates the Sumeria document to the Middle Bronze Age and to a city called Isin which was attempting to dominate the area both politically and militarily.
en.wikipedia.org...

Since the Jewish religion began around 1500 BC in the Mesopotamian area, and the kingdom of Judah begins around 960 BC, the religion would have been started by people who lived in the area who had a particular male deity (Yahweh, by the way, had a consort in the VERY earliest cultural findings.)

So the question i have, is where did the Sumerians come from?

Sumeria. The Levant.

Did they come from the north? Were they more white then dark? If they were more white and had large beards, they probably came from the north from around where the Scythians ruled.

They looked "Arab." And "large beards" can come from any group (look at the Sikhs from India as an example.)

The book is claiming that the Scythians writing seemed to predate the Sumerians, but i don't see that anywhere on the interwebs. He seems to be basing this on an old book or some other knowledge.

Perhaps it's based on what he wants to believe is true.

All i know is that our history is written by the winners and i am fairly confident that most of what we know about "history" is wrong.

Then do take the time to join history hunters -- October is Archaeology Month, and there are local and state and national archaeological events that are designed to get people interested in and trained in digging up history (I'm not being sarcastic -- in fact, I'm suggesting such an event for the place where I am a docent.) Although conquerers can rewrite paper, they can't overwrite millions of artifacts.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
What is even more amazing are the number of connections between judaism and ancient civilizations. Jews are everywhere almost! They are in Egypt, in Greece, Sumeria, Babylon and even the Romans.

You're thinking Bibliocentrically. Remember the great civilizations of the East had no contact with them, nor did those of the Indus valleys or the Mound Builders of North America, the pre-Olmec civilizations of South and Central America. As far as we can tell, the Sumerians "originated" there and collected into larger groups toward the end of the last ice age when dryer conditions forced people to live closer to water and roaming bands came into contact with each other and began to negotiate for resources.

I was thinking about this. I understand that you are saying that they claim that they "originated" there, but almost every single civilization has that story that they were created there, wherever there maybe. That is silly to assume that they started there, in fact almost stupid to believe. I can understand if they were an african tribe because the popular belief is that we came out of Africa, not the middle east. So they may have "originated" there but i want to know when they got there back in history. I believe the accepted theory is that humans left africa around 60,000 bc so maybe that is when they were there? This is an impossible question, but i really think they came from somewhere. Unless they were "created" there by the help of another civilization or "alien", than i can buy that. Like if the original people were natives and a new race came and and helped them, like the story of the south american gods that had beards and wore long robes.

So it believe the Sumerians had help from another group of people from another area, or they just came from another area. They could have either came from the North by ways of eastern europe or central asia or from the east out of India, and possibly from the south out of Africa. But i think there was an advanced civilization prior to the Sumerians. Could be atlanteans or some offshoot of them.

Did they come from the north? Were they more white then dark? If they were more white and had large beards, they probably came from the north from around where the Scythians ruled.

They looked "Arab." And "large beards" can come from any group (look at the Sikhs from India as an example.)

Well what is interesting to me are how the hair on asian mens faces grow. For the most part, they can not grow a full beard like white people. Their sideburns do not meet their chin. What if the ones that do have the ability to grow a full beard have DNA from a white person in their past? I know there is a story that jews went to Japan and they still follow an ancient religious ceremony that is very similar to the jewish ark of the covenant. What if they really did travel to Japan and help populate the island? Also it's a fact that Jews went to India after the fall of Jerusalem in the 1st century. The Cochin jews are proof that they could have easily expanded more into the east and the BEARDS maybe a hint!!!

en.wikipedia.org...

dear op

according to this article in the new york times, western science had no idea what was in eastern europe so you might want to compare romanian/hungarian/bulgarian/serbian/ukranian to mid/far east artifacts.

scythians didn't just hatch in 700bc. they built huge cities but in eastern europe..

[edit.. compare eastern europe to egypt too]

Textreply to post by BeastMaster2012



If you are interested of finding out more of the Scythian-Sumerian link, please check this out:
This essay by Klara Friedrich is about a 6000-6500 year old disc and two rectangles found with what looks like Szekely Rovasiras and/or Sumerian in Tatarlak, Hungary with a quite interesting proposal of Magyar/Hun Sumerian Scythian connections...
cakravartin.com...

I believe Gardner might got the idea of the Scythians from Sir Henry Rawlinson's connection between the Scythian (being the older) and Sumerian languages.

Howdy Byrd

There is also the theory that the Ubaidians were the people forced out of the river basin that was flooded slowly after the ice ages - which became the Persian Gulf.

The Irish trace their origins back to Magog the second son of Japheth this is well known. Josephus identified the offspring of Magog as the Scythians. Basically the Scythians are the Irish, and the Irish are the Scythians!

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Byrd

There is also the theory that the Ubaidians were the people forced out of the river basin that was flooded slowly after the ice ages - which became the Persian Gulf.

That's one that I've read as well.
There seems to be a past before the past we know.