Muslim leaders to abandon plans for Ground Zero community center

Originally posted by AshleyD
It morally saddens me they will continue with their plans in spite of the obvious pain it is causing.

Hi Ashley,

Regarding what I quoted from your post what are your thoughts of this video in response to your post?



Just curious on your thoughts on this

THanks

Originally posted by wutone

Originally posted by Lessinterested

How many of the Muslims involved here are not Americans?

Is there a difference between a Muslim and an American?

Can one not be both?

Yea what is the difference?

Why can't an American put a porn shop in front of a school?

But for some strange reason, a Muslim gets to bypass taste and respect and stick a mosque (called the Cordoba house no less) on ground zero. And for some strange reason this decision is totally defended by the powers that be and many others.

But yet the porn shop guy, who is also protected by the same 1st amendment, does not get the same protections as the Muslim.

So whats the difference between a Muslim and an American?

Because a porn shop will expose children to bad stuff
and a mosque...will expose children
(and those who don't know any better) to worse stuff.

Except if say the truth about one of them, you will not be beheaded by
angry mobs.
Here is your difference.



[edit on 17-8-2010 by tungus]

Originally posted by AshleyD
It morally saddens me they will continue with their plans in spite of the obvious pain it is causing.

Is it really causing pain, or is the widespread misinformation about it causing pain?

I know what the polls say about support for this project outside Manhattan (inside Manhattan they're still showing more support than opposition).

But how many of those asked actually know that it's not a mosque but a cultural/community center with a Muslim prayer space on two out of 13 floors? How many know that it's not on the WTC site but on a block two streets away? That you can't see it from the WTC site or the WTC site from it?

I've seen posts on ATS that seem so confused about all of it that they seem to think this is somehow being built instead of rebuilding St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church. But that's something like six blocks south of this site, and the problems with rebuilding that have had more to do with difficulties in arranging a land swap with the Port Authority than anything else.

This particular Imam has led a congregation very near the WTC site for 27 years. Currently they meet in a small storefront mosque about a half mile north of the WTC site.

He first thought about building an Islamic cultural center to serve Lower Manhattan in 1999. Suggestions that they just build elsewhere don't take into account the fact that building elsewhere is not the same as building in the neighborhood that he has been a part of for decades.

I do sympathize with the pain people are feeling, and I know that the country as a whole feels a claim to what happens at Ground Zero. But I also know that it's the residents of Tribeca who had to deal with weeks or months of being displaced or having to present ID to get into and out of their neighborhood after 9/11. And those people support this project.

And this is not Ground Zero (I hate that name, but that's another topic ).

This is blocks away, in a neighborhood that has had a hard time bringing businesses back after so many were forced out of business while the entire neighborhood was closed down after 9/11. This is an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory.

People who come to New York to visit Ground Zero will not even see this place unless they deliberately go to visit.

I would be 100% against the GOVERNMENT stepping in to put an end to the plans to build the center. Freedom of religion and assembly still reigns. That is why we have these legal protections. They weren't put in place to only protect the popular and socially acceptable.

So I am against the government stopping it but it would be nice if they were not pouring salt on the wounds of something so fragile. To be honest, it does make me angry that they know the pain it is causing others but are still going forward. Of course, we cannot worry about every little offense our actions cause another nor should we have to.

Again, I question whether it is the community center that is causing the pain, or whether other forces are using the community center to exacerbate pain.

But this is a pretty hot button. So common sense would dictate a move in location but common sense died a few decades ago so that's that.

A move in location to where? I've seen various suggestions but none of them make sense to me.

If two blocks away isn't good enough for the rest of the country, is five blocks? Ten blocks? A mile or two?

In order to serve the community that it is meant to serve, it can't move far. Very few people in New York drive. And there's very little space in Lower Manhattan that would be appropriate for a project like this, especially at the price they got this for.

There's a lot of vacancy, but that doesn't mean entire vacant buildings. They need something that they can demolish and reconstruct, not a patchwork of office space scattered throughout the neighborhood.

I for one don't sympathize with 9/11 families on this because sympathy for them doesn't reach here.

It's really a simple case of whether you believe Islam as a whole is to blame for the actions of a marginal few. And that's if you even believe in an official story riddled with holes.

No reasonable human being could ever lay blame on the entirety of any religion for anything a few of their members do. It would be like blaming all Christians for the WBC. Or blaming all Buddhists for all the depraved actions in pre-China Tibet. Or blaming all Catholics for the IRA. Religion is a powerful idea that, like other powerful ideas, can be used to control people to do things that typically those who prescribe to that religion.

It's this line of blame in which determines how you perceive this situation, and I think this line is rather clear; those thinking emotionally blame Islam, and those thinking rationally don't.

In 2001 islamic fundamentalist may not be responsible for the WTC, they did try to bring them down in 1993. So that is not something easily forgotten by many people. They may have moved on in their lives,but having a mosque near the WTC site will just bring back the pain that they have tried to put behind them. So I don't think it is a hatred of muslims they just don't want to be reminded of the tragedy that has happened there.

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


There's a mosque near WTC already; 4 blocks away. And it has been there years before the WTC was even built.


This fear is idiotic and has no basis on the reality of the matter.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

well i hope they are right because the bastards who did these attacks did them in the name of islam should not be glorified by putting a islamic temple
at ground zero. and don't scream i am a racist or a bigot or any of that crap. islamic people in saudi arabia held a telephon to raise money for their 19 martyrs who sacrficed their lives . allowing these to go through would be like japan making a memorial victory center over uss arizona commerating how Japanese pilots sunk all those ships at pearlharbor dec7 1941. or us making an atomic bombs and how they won us the war comminity center in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.any one who can't see that is a fool

Originally posted by illusive man
reply to post by willow1d

 

they should build it just to spite the Red necks, conservatives and fox news readers,
its always fun pissing off red necks

[edit on 16-8-2010 by illusive man]

I don't know where you are from but the people of NY are not rednecks...
I am and a conservative and love Fox News, but they are not.
So do a little homework before you slam someone else...







[edit on 17-8-2010 by Soldier of God]

Originally posted by proteus33
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

well i hope they are right because the bastards who did these attacks did them in the name of islam should not be glorified by putting a islamic temple
at ground zero. and don't scream i am a racist or a bigot or any of that crap. islamic people in saudi arabia held a telephon to raise money for their 19 martyrs who sacrficed their lives . allowing these to go through would be like japan making a memorial victory center over uss arizona commerating how Japanese pilots sunk all those ships at pearlharbor dec7 1941. or us making an atomic bombs and how they won us the war comminity center in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.any one who can't see that is a fool

Yeah or the complete restoration of the enola gay and it's public display, that wouldn't be right at all would it, oh but they did that hmm.

Yes they did the attacks in the name of Islam but that doesn't mean Islam as a whole is to blame. Just like the crusades were done in the name of Christianity, just like abortion clinics are bombed by Christians and abortion doctors killed by Christians. None of these actions should be blamed on the entire religion.

As others have explained to you, this centre (it's not an Islamic temple) is not on ground zero, it's a couple of blocks away. Why is it you are all for interferring the with the rights of these people to put up this centre? Doesn't that violate their rights, defended by the constitution?

And yes what you are saying is bigoted because you are insulting a religion when you put them all in the same basket.

reply to post by SpectreDC


So people that are getting on and trying to put a tragedy behind them are idiotic. Ok then if there is a mosque near there why do they need to build another one so close. Also if they want to better the relationship between everyone why can they not see that this is only going to cause problems for all involved. So if you want to say that this train of thought is idiotic then that is your opinion and it only matters to you.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Bigotry? I think not...

Intimidation? I think not...

What it was, in my not so humble opinion, was a group of people suddenly realizing that maybe it's a tad insensitive to build a mosque at that particular spot? Maybe?

Most of the people who were, and are, protesting this plan, myself amongst them; have no issue with building a mosque... Just not right there.

So...

Three cheers for neighborly thinking. Three cheers for realizing that this wasn't such a great idea... Three cheers...well you get my drift.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Yeah or the complete restoration of the enola gay and it's public display, that wouldn't be right at all would it, oh but they did that hmm.

But we didn't park it in downtown Hiroshima...
2nd line.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


McVeigh wasn't killing in the name of Jesus. Or Christianity for that matter. As misguided as he was, he saw the government do something at Waco that disturbed him. Posse Comitatus and all that.

And that 'Imam' is another story altogether.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Darkrunner]

Originally posted by Soldier of God

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Yeah or the complete restoration of the enola gay and it's public display, that wouldn't be right at all would it, oh but they did that hmm.

But we didn't park it in downtown Hiroshima...
2nd line.

No but it still caused anger and controversy and it still went ahead. You think the glorification of the aircraft that dropped the first atomic bomb on a nation doesn't hurt a little?

It's been over 10 years since 9/11. Once again this isn't a Mosque it's a community centre and it's being served by an imam who has roots in the community and has been practicing his religion in an area for a while. It makes sense to build the centre nearby.

And once again it's funny to see how people trample the rights of a group simply because they are unhappy about something. I thought such rights were protected. By not allowing this centre to be built it may very well cause further hatred toward the area.

Originally posted by pajoly
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

"When I said, " This is the law of the land" I didn't mean law as in real law, I meant law as in spirit. This is the way things get done in our democracy.. the majority vote is king. The mosque builders recognized this."

See, it is posts like this that should have each of you quaking in your shoes. People like this have no clue that they are completely ignorant of the facts, completely and willfully ignorant how our society is meant to function. He lives in opposite world. This is supposed to be the ONE COUNTRY where being part of the majority does not afford you ANY protections, any special rights. In this country it is supposed to be the INDIVIDUAL'S rights that get protected FROM the majority. This is EXPLICITLY why we have the Judicial system -- to protect individuals and small groups from the oppresion, bigotry, ignorance, mob rule and zealotry of the majority. That this poster thinks the opposite tells you just how poor our education is, just how far we have strayed.

BS. You are twisting what I said to fit your own agenda.

Originally posted by Darkrunner
McVeigh wasn't killing in the name of Jesus. Or Christianity for that matter. As misguided as he was, he saw the government do something at Waco that disturbed him. Posse Comitatus and all that.

And that 'Imam' is another story altogether.

Yes that Imam is another story

'Ground Zero Mosque' Imam Was A Bush-Era Partner For Mideast Peace
tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...

reply to post by Darkrunner


The Turner Diaries, written by William Pierce under the pseudonym Andrew MacDonald, is a fictional account of judgement day, which identity adherents are preparing for.

A summary of the book by Joel Dyer, author of Harvest of Rage: Why Oklahoma City is Only the Beginning:

In his book "The Turner Diaries," Pierce describes a race war that ends with the government being overthrown. Pierce's book is more than fiction. The most radical elements of the movement view it as a vision or blueprint for action. In the book, the Aryan forces used armored car robberies to finance their revolution. In real life, the radical white supremacist group called "the Order" used Pierce's book as a guide to their armored car robberies in the Northwest. In the book, the revolutionaries blow up a federal building as part of their antigovernment war. In real life, the bombing of Oklahoma City's Alfred P. Murrah Building was almost a carbon copy of the incident in Pierce's book. As I mentioned earlier, Timothy McVeigh had photocopies of a portion of "The Turner Diaries" with him when he was arrested. McVeigh also sold copies of the book at gun shows around the country.

Is it true that McVeigh had photocopied pages from this book and sold copies of it? Just asking.

People all think that the attacks on 9/11 were motivated by religion. They were motivated by money, using the religion in some idiots brains.

Does anybody know when they plan on opening this cultural center? Now this is what probably upsets people. They plan on opening this place on 09/11/2011. Thats right 09/11/2011 now that is just wrong if you ask me. So they want to make things better between us then why would you purposely choose that date that you fully know what that day means to most americans and especially New Yorkers.

Originally posted by illusive man
reply to post by willow1d

 

they should build it just to spite the Red necks, conservatives and fox news readers,
its always fun pissing off red necks

[edit on 16-8-2010 by illusive man]

Way to be racist.