Civility, decorum and the Aliens and UFO Forum

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
I still don't understand why you skeptics and debunkers are even on "a conspiracy site"...what's that about?

Wouldn't life be better if you just stayed away - after all you don't believe in anything outside the limitations of your own minds. Doesn't it drive you nuts to be correct time and time again?

Again - why are you here?

This poor attitude exemplifies how many people feel they have a greater sense of entitlement on this forum than sceptics. This type of attitude is a cancer that management and staff need to cut out as it usually leads to abusive behaviour. As watchZEITGEISTnow has just shown, they are already angry/hostile towards us before we've have even had a chance to post within a thread.

What watchZEITGEISTnow and many other members fail to realise that ATS is not about conspiracies for conspiracies sake. It is about exploring the validity of a conspiracy and the supportive evidence/proof on it's own merits, minus the noise created by emotion and opinion. Though opinion is fine if labelled as such, it lends no weight either way to the validity of a claim. The same can be said for the emotional pleas often seen within threads as people seek confirmation of their own biases.

ATS is about denying ignorance. What you suggest watchZEITGEISTnow flies in the face of that philosophy.

IRM

[edit on 17/8/10 by InfaRedMan]

InfaRedMan is right, it's a two way street and upon re-reading the thread I can't but help thinking here that neformore, you got it wrong, the overall message is right, but the slant is unfairly erring against the skeptics.

When I read the OP and see quotes such as:

Not everything is a hoax

If you make a case for a hoax that the staff agrees with, the thread will be moved to the Hoax forum.

Sadly, the staff have noticed that recently claims of the unusual are being met with scorn, overt sarcasm, hostility and personal attacks

It becomes clear that it is, without a doubt, aimed towards skeptics.

What a joke!

Let me elaborate by giving an example of exactly what an ATS skeptic has to put up with on a regular basis, ironically the post I'm about to quote comes from this very thread:

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
Perhaps the professional skeptics and debunkers can bring some of their own ET threads and help out eh?

I still don't understand why you skeptics and debunkers are even on "a conspiracy site"...what's that about?

Wouldn't life be better if you just stayed away - after all you don't believe in anything outside the limitations of your own minds. Doesn't it drive you nuts to be correct time and time again?

Again - why are you here?

I want you nefemore, to honestly tell me that the above attitude is acceptable in these forums.

There is no civility in these posts, there is no decorum, it's loaded with sarcasm, scorn, hostility and is embracing ignorance.

It epitomizes everything bad about this forum and It's these types of posts that I see all the time and it really, really gets me fired up, this in turn makes me come down to their level and go all out on attack mode and hey presto, the skeptic is the bad guy for defending himself.

I think many other members can mirror my sentiment here too.

So what I think happened here is that this thread was a knee jerk reaction, stemming from one (maybe two) particular thread(s), where the skeptical side probably was pushing the friendship a little too far.

Perhaps a little more time should have been spent on it to emphasize that BOTH sides need to cool their jets?




[edit on 17/8/10 by Chadwickus]

reply to post by Springer


I seriously thought about contacting you about alien evidence that is literally trapped in stone, like an insect trapped in amber. The outer surface of these translucent blue-green stones are pitted and having seen the images within filled them with wet tissue and let them dry. The paper mache captured small 3d images of human-like people similar to the ones i photograph. The link to images here. s914.photobucket.com...

[edit on 043131p://am3128 by debris765nju]

The Aliens/UFO forum is what attracted me to this site.

The main reason?

The skeptics!

I tend to err on the side of "believer" but I am the first to admit that my hopefulness is not a good trait to have as I tend to get suckered in to considering some whacked out ideas to have some credibility. Mostly because I am hoping to see something earth shattering and amazing. But honestly, there is nothing worse than reading forums that are full of tinfoil-hatted people who just agree with each other and want to believe so much that they don't even try to reason.

I love that the so-called skeptics in this place keep the threads grounded, they constantly push for credible evidence and keep the OP honest for the most part. Admittely, having so many people on their toes means that it's an obvious target for hoaxing. But if it's a well thought out hoax, sure, its a disappointment (because its a hoax) but it will eventually get found out and it's always fun to go back in retrospect and see who had it figured out from the start.

The star and flag system is a great way to see whether or not people agree; as a novice, it helps me to get my bearings and start to see what posts / threads are more than likely rubbish or atleast have some point of interest.

reply to post by intrepid


I think we can all agree that the Mods are usually much more informed than the average ATS user. No matter what, some of us are going to argue with other users and Mods about anything and everything. So at least if the Mods share their reasoning and understanding we can gain from their actions, and the explanations that would go along with it.

I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Well, when dealing with the whole UFO subject in general, its really hard to bring forth any hard facts to the subject. Yeah, you can quote sources and this and that and give your own thoughts on the subject, but at the end of the day, its a discussion with many holes in it. There is no "proof" really. There isnt a smoking gun of sorts to point at and say hey, ET visitation is real and UFOs are manned by ETs. The poster cannot do that because the poster simply doesnt have any sources to point at and say as much.

All we have are certain cases from down the line that we discuss ad nauseam here. We also get some new cases that crop up once in a while that are interesting to go over and discuss.

In the end, the whole UFO subject just has way too many holes in it and its based purely around lies, deceit and disinformation. It takes a person with an open mind to discuss the subject at any real depth. These are reasons that I personally think that its a real hard subject to draw the line on.

edit: woops, I double posted somehow due to my ISP burping. Could a mod delete this post and leave the one below.



[edit on 17-8-2010 by -Blackout-]

Well, when dealing with the whole UFO subject in general, its really hard to bring forth any hard facts to the subject. Yeah, you can quote sources and this and that and give your own thoughts on the subject, but at the end of the day, its a discussion with many holes in it. There is no "proof" really. There isnt a smoking gun of sorts to point at and say hey, ET visitation is real and UFOs are manned by ETs. The poster cannot do that because the poster simply doesnt have any sources to point at and say as much.

All we have are certain cases from down the line that we discuss ad nauseam here. We also get some new cases that crop up once in a while that are interesting to go over and discuss.

In the end, the whole UFO subject just has way too many holes in it and its based purely around lies, deceit and disinformation. It takes a person with an open mind to discuss the subject at any real depth. These are reasons that I personally think that its a real hard subject to draw the line on.

reply to post by Chadwickus


I agree with Chadwickus,

However I do not agree with gang mentality, sarcasm and especially scorn.

But nefemore, do you not recognise that it seems to be on these boards that both sides are guilty of this and if you haven't had a "special experience" or some "enlightened happening" - then you just "don't understand and/or are just part of some government conspiracy to hush the truth." (I could go on, but I won't.)

That is just ludicrous.

I might not post much, but I read ALOT. It is happening on both sides.



[edit on 17/8/2010 by Netties Hermit]

reply to post by Netties Hermit


I see a lot of gang mentality happen on the UFO/ET forum. However, it comes from both sides. Not just one or the other.

Originally posted by Chadwickus
InfaRedMan is right, it's a two way street and upon re-reading the thread I can't but help thinking here that neformore, you got it wrong, the overall message is right, but the slant is unfairly erring against the skeptics.

I'm 100% with IRM and Chadwickus (and Nettie's very succinct comments!) on this. I was going to comment further *specifically*, but I am relieved to see some posts above are now missing! In my opinion that sort of attitude is not what ATS should be about, yet it is, imo, somewhat (inadvertently) encouraged by some of the comments in the OP.

I *thought* this was a public forum. One that encourages vigorous debate about conspiracies and other 'out-there' topics, with a view to denying ignorance and uncovering the truth. Yes or no?

The ALERT button is there, and of course mods should be removing posts and/or warning people for breaking the rules. If that is too onerous and they can't cope with the volume, then impose some limits on posts per day, or take some other action.

But, imo, if the posts survive moderator examination, then that should be it - just let the debate continue! Frankly, people need to harden up a bit!! If an opinion expressed is wrong, or expressed a little harshly, then other posts will counter it. Truth will win.

If any post is genuinely abusive or insulting, then the system is already there to deal with it. Where is the problem???

Posting a request to be somehow 'nicer', and more 'allowing' of conspiracies, seems to me to boil down to wanting us to allow more unsupported stuff, and not to ask the hard questions - nor be critical of soft or wrong answers. If the poster is either having the forum on, or is so uninformed - perhaps deluded - that no amount of actual information is ever going to get through, or is repeating claims that have been addressed many times over... maybe the responses will indeed seem a little harsh..

And the important point to me is... all *that* stuff drowns out the really interesting stuff! You seriously want *more* of it???

What's more, this criticism of debunking/skepticism gives the hoaxers/trolls an 'out' - "You are obviously picking on me so I won't continue on this thread".. I'm seeing that cop-out used here more often than I would like - someone will post very questionable content, wait for a few criticisms, and then storm off in a (pretend) huff, thereby avoiding having to support it or answer questions. For the troll, that means "job done" - xxxx successfully thrown at fan, some of it sticks...

Further, some of the threads are being so contaminated by timewasting cut-and-pastes and the now de-rigeur 'argument by youtube', that I am more often just turning my back on them - even though I know what is being presented is a lie.


Anyway, like they said - TWO WAY STREET.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

It would be better for the education of us all if moderators would share the information used to determine whether a thread topic is a hoax or not. I think this would also ease the tension between mods and users, if mods were required to explain their actions when labeling a thread hoax, or any other action taken.

Thanks

I am in total agreement after having a post removed just yesterday without any explanation from the MOD concerned other than the general sticker saying the post was 'off-topic' (which it certainly was not).

I think an explanation for any action taken by a Moderator as well as the general sticker would certainly save a lot of confusion and frustration.

I would like to add that the majority of MODS do a fantastic job overall

Woody

reply to post by CHRLZ


CHRLZ…..

The irrational commentary & abuse against members & witnesses attempting serious analysis can cause the whole discussion environment to deteriorate & even become dysfunctional.

The Sydney UFO Hoax thread is a good example of this:

**HOAX** UFO In Sydney Australia **HOAX**

The relentless irrational commentary & abuse by one or two members in that thread made things extremely difficult for those of us attempting serious analysis.

Additionally, this irrational commentary & abuse:

- Extended to the witness, which also made it more difficult than it needed to be for the witness

- Discouraged the involvement of a very experienced & well published UFO researcher, with whom I was discussing the case externally.

It’s such a shame to see this sort of thing occur.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

reply to post by neformore


... the recent long crop circle with the hiroglyphics must have taken all week for a dedicated team of weirdos - and they got it so Perfect .... Took me nearly that long to decipher it . Anyway the decode reads thus ( you earthbounds won't be happy ) -
Fraternization with natives unnecessary - no knowlege to be gleaned - denizens primarily concerned with fear and lollies -
Do not loiter - if apprehended feign insanity and resign yourself to brief incarceration by unlimited Talkshow hosts until ( thankfully) terminal torture by richest government -
Emissaries sent previously have been disected at remote secretive location named Neverland ...
Avoid like plague which is what you will get due to unrestrained chemical and bacterial profiteering.
Any treaties agreed to will be voided at greediest opportunity - have been known to steal even from family !!
If species is allowed to migrate will fill universe with Burger franchises and Paparazzi -
Delay contact for 3 million years ( 84 seconds our time ) hostility will be bred out due to laziness .
Rectinol - Overregulator of the Dark Passage - TM. pending ..

Originally posted by neformore
ATS is about denying ignorance, not promoting it.

I wish this were true. I aim for it every time I share my thoughts here.

This thread is a perfect example of a topic here which promoted ignorance, socially linked like-minded people, denied scrutiny and had moderators support and protect it right here in the Alien & UFO section of the forums before finally moving it to the Skunk Works.

There should be a thread about it (and possible me) in the mods forum.

Have a read through that and then tell me that ATS is about denying ignorance and not promoting it.

I understand it's a hard game to balance moderating the boards here and I give a big 'High Five' to all the mods for their hard and usually thankless work.

But please understand if you allow for people to pick on those who are vulnerable then you become part of the problem and not the solution to it.

Scepticism is about uncovering the truth for everyone.

Scepticism is how we will eventually understand Aliens and UFOs.

Scepticism is what ATS strives to be.

As for the etiquette part - I think everyone can be insulting in a particular environment.

Those who determine what that environment is should be more moderate in their allegiance to beliefs.

-m0r

Personal Responsibility

If you think a thread is junk, don't comment on it.

The less comments it gets, the quicker it will disappear down the thread list.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO COMMENT ON EVERY THREAD

You most certainly do not have to attack anyone, and if you think that you do maybe you should be asking yourself what it achieves other than to stoke your own ego in doing so.

If someone posts a picture of a raindrop on a windscreen and you really really can't control yourself to the point where you cannot make a concious effort to stop your fingers from typing a message out, then simply say "I think its a raindrop on a screen"

If you are challenged on your assessment, explain why. People will either agree or disagree with you.

Debunking a hoax does not have to be personal - the only person who makes that choice is YOU - likewise if someone gets stupid with you you most certainly do not have to respond - alert the post instead

I'm tired of the crappy excuses for being uncivil. Alot of them have been presented in this thread. Last time I checked this wasn't a schoolyard or a kindergarten. Its time people started acting their age and being personally responsible.

reply to post by neformore


this thread is the most beautiful thing i've seen this whole weekend, not counting THIS, of course.


keep ATSing neformore,
et

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

If I had absolute, undeniable factual evidence about the nature of a UFO, say for example being of extraterrestrial origin, do you think I would post it on ATS? No, I would go to CNN or other major news organization duh.

Many of the posts are speculative thus the "Unknown" in UFO. But to be honest I've seen many posts were derisive replies were made almost automatically, in some cases, even before it would have been possible to watch the entire video or read the entire article.

The net effect in my opinion is that fewer people will bother to post interesting (to me anyway) ideas. Then all you will have left is the skeptics and we all know how interesting they are

Originally posted by neformore
If you think a thread is junk, don't comment on it.

The less comments it gets, the quicker it will disappear down the thread list.

Again not necessarily true.

Galactic Light Federation threads, Star Child threads, The Indigos etc. all stay near the top and don't have those who 'believe' chide any flack for sharing their thoughts on the subject from moderators.

I find it insulting (and embarrassing for humanity too) when someone states something without proof, has many people buy into their belief system sometimes supplying the same lack of proof and this is promoted via stars, flags and lack of moderation.

I look for civility, I look for decorum and yet all I find are people populating a thread with wild claims which generate traffic for some other website full of vulnerable (and possibly mentally unsound) people.

These threads generally tell sceptics not to respond or take part.

Rosa Park would have had a field day.

-m0r