Why the west should fear muslims

Originally posted by operation mindcrime


All I see is a bunch of angry men expressing their opinion...!?!

Just a bunch of angry men with issues....

Emotionally charged up and therefore, all the easier to manipulate and control.

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
..
You act like you know what has happened there or what continues to happen there. The government has a tight grip on media sources as well as what people are allowed to say about the government.

FACE IT THE ONLY ONE WITH LACK OF BRAINS IN THIS SITUATION IS YOU!!!

But guess you wouldn't know that. It is people like you who make me feel sorry to call myself a human being sometimes.

Deny ignorance ATS!

Im sorry that your people suffer. In Norway we don't really have problems with Etiopians but with Somalians etc.

Originally posted by babybunnies

I find it hilarious that most people on here are "anti government" and "anti media manipulation" but are being manipulated by the VERY Government and Media they claim to abhor when they are posting things like how much they hate and fear Muslims.

Yeah so what, i am anti goverment, i am anti media manipulation, i'm still anti-islam. For what it teaches, why wouldn't i be? I've read their manifesto, i know its based on a invisible man in the sky, who says women can be stoned, and hidden by a burka (choice or not) also says death to all the un-believers, even if it isn't DEATH to the un-believers it's a lot of disrespect if anything.

Do you know WHY you hate Muslims? Beause you've been INDOCTRINATED by the Western Media into believing that Muslims are bad and evil.

Utter nonsense.

No, it's called learning what the QuRan says, looking at what "radical" Muslims are doing, look at their laws, looking at their manifestos, lookig at the reason people are blowing themselves uplooked how they want to impose Shariah law on us, looking at the punishment for apostasy.

How dare you say i have been indoctrinated by the West, i don't read Newspapers or watch BBC/SKY/CNN/MSM and I still came up with the conclusion that i dislike Islam.

Did we say dislike every Muslim? But i certainly don't have respect for someone with these beliefs, i'm not going to lie to myself.
I wonder how many of the posters on here have actually attended a service at a Mosque or even been to a Muslim nation and seen how they live?

Most people in Muslim nations are NOT actually practising Muslims, similar in that most people in Catholic nations are not actually practising Catholics.

Then they are not religious, they have just been branded with that label because of peer pressure, or because people disrespect people in countries. Most people in Iran/Iraq and other Muslim countries don't have a chance if they don't submit to Allah, remember the punishment for Apostasy.

We should be celebrating the differences and diversities in human culture, not trying to crush them.

I'm happy enough to celebrate our cultural differences, but i won't respect or celebrate people with these fanatasies or thinking that some old book is the perfect book written by man, it's childish.

We should be taking away those differences, we already have skin colour, race, hair colour, favourites football team.

First of all, look at what the majority of Muslims say about Jews

and Yes those differences are enough, the only difference is in belief, and that belief is unfounded - that difference being someone believes there is an invisible man in charge of the universe, some of us who believe a different man rules it, and some people who think its retarded.

What a stupid difference to have, why don't we just unite together in the belief of truth and science, we could make our lives better, instead of worse. Without prejiduce towards other people, not even because of skin colour, race, clothes.

But if you want to come to our country, remember the majority of us don't give a monkeys about religion any more, Atheism is becoming more respected, and it's about time.

Originally posted by Acharya

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
..
You act like you know what has happened there or what continues to happen there. The government has a tight grip on media sources as well as what people are allowed to say about the government.

FACE IT THE ONLY ONE WITH LACK OF BRAINS IN THIS SITUATION IS YOU!!!

But guess you wouldn't know that. It is people like you who make me feel sorry to call myself a human being sometimes.

Deny ignorance ATS!

Im sorry that your people suffer. In Norway we don't really have problems with Etiopians but with Somalians etc.

Well I saw your post about your claims that the quotes that you have shown prove that Islam is spreading division, hate, et cetera.

But your quotes, like the ones that are one liners, are out of context.

Just to prove it to you would you mind showing the entire paragraph this has come from ALONG with at least 2 paragraphs in front of it and behind it?

That is for each single quote, just to allow no distortion.

If the scripture is as you say then you can continue to show them. But if they prove otherwise that those were incorrectly showing what was in the initial message then you cannot show those individual quotes before without the entire paragraphs in front of it.

But this SHOULD NOT ONLY BE USED FOR THE QURAN, IT SHOULD ALSO APPLY TO ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE THAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS PROMOTES DIVISION, VIOLENCE, ET. CETERA.

i wish some god would lead me beside some still waters
where i could get away from religion. i really wish y'all would just shut up.
go pray on someone else

Originally posted by 3vilscript

Originally posted by pjslug
Yes, apparently these pictures were left out of the American and European media and were taken by a Canadian. Someone sent the e-mail to my grandmother and she sent it to me, so I'm not sure of the origin but they speak for themselves.

Post some pictures of the crusaders killing a bunch of people... you have any of those? Or any pictures of the Jews as they were leaving Egypt and people were "giving" them their worldly possessions because they were "God's people." Post some pictures of how in the name of God cities were destroyed.... oh the camera wasn't invented yet... but I hear those stories are well documented in some book somewhere. Why don't you post some pictures of how New Orleans was destroyed because God could not stand the sin.... or Haiti... I seem to remember a few religious (Christian) leaders rationalizing all that pain and suffering in this manner. Post some pictures of the thousands of Native Americans killed because they had "devils" in them. All in the name of our dear Lord.

That god some of you pray to at night, the same god you think is so much better than theirs, is as bad if not worse than theirs. And I'll tell you why. It's because he is a product of your troubled minds, trying to justify your insecurities.

I have no doubt there is a God, no doubt. I also have no doubt that he is terribly disgusted at what we have become.

[edit on 8/22/2010 by 3vilscript]

Did you even read my first post with the pictures? I said ALL ORGANIZED RELIGIONS MUST DIE. But no, you didn't so you assume I'm biased.

[edit on 8/23/2010 by pjslug]

reply to post by ollncasino

I started going through the verses (or technically the "explanations" of the verse numbers) you posted, but I quickly realised that every one of them was either (at best) unintentionally mistranslated, or (at worst) intentionally misleading. I strongly suggest you review your sources.


reply to post by dreamwalker74

I direct you to this post by me in this very thread. You seem to be under a misconception about what "taqiyya" is.


reply to post by awake_and_aware

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

Originally posted by babybunnies
Do you know WHY you hate Muslims? Beause you've been INDOCTRINATED by the Western Media into believing that Muslims are bad and evil.

Utter nonsense.

No, it's called learning what the QuRan says, looking at what "radical" Muslims are doing, look at their laws, looking at their manifestos, lookig at the reason people are blowing themselves uplooked how they want to impose Shariah law on us, looking at the punishment for apostasy.

How dare you say i have been indoctrinated by the West, i don't read Newspapers or watch BBC/SKY/CNN/MSM and I still came up with the conclusion that i dislike Islam.

Sure, you say that, but it really does appear that you heard all the hateful stuff about Islam first, checked all the hateful propaganda, and THEN made you decision. This can be easily illustrated by your previous post:

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Relating to the topic, and my questions to any Muslim who truely follows his "perfect" book are as follows:-

What's the punishment for Apostasy in Islam?

According to the "perfect" book you mentioned, there is none. Even during the life of the Prophet, there were several recorded occasions when someone left Islam and no action was taken against them.

Does Islam WANT to dominate the world?

Islam isn't a living thing. It doesn't "want" anything. Insofar as the "perfect book" again that you mentioned, however, it makes no mention or command to "dominate the world", and instead makes quite clear that the different religions, tribes, cultures, etc. are all here according to God's will.

Do Muslims want to spread Shariah law across the world?

Do they? I dunno. What has that to do with Islam? The Quran doesn't mention anywhere that Muslims should want to do such a thing. Does America WANT to spread Democracy all across the world ? I don't think there is an implementation of Shariah law anywhere in the world anyhow...

Do Muslims believe in evolution?

The Quran certainly can be interpreted to be supporting evolution, and one of the first major proponents for evolution was a muslim whose writings influenced Darwin and Lamarck.

Why does Allah condone stoning of women and men as punishment? does Allah not believe in rehabilitation and nuture?

Once again, the Quran does not ANYWHERE mention stoning.


So, where did you learn of Islam from, then, since it wasn't from the Quran, obviously?

[edit on 23-8-2010 by babloyi]

Interesting how the board leadership and forum moderator will allow the O.P. to call out a whole race of people and label them as being lesser than he/she, and then continue along the bigoted/racist path in this thread - largely unabated... But when I directly (and correctly - down to the 'dictionary-definition') label the OP as a racist bigot, my post is edited and I am reprimanded.

Please note - all voices ARE NOT EQUAL here on ATS.

This was edited out of your post: "And not only have you shown yourself to be a racist, but also an ignorant bigot."

Please refrain from attacks like this in the future. These types of posts can and will be removed in the future.
Further reading: Mod Note: Go After the Ball, Not the Player!
Mod Edit: Please Review the Following Link: Courtesy Is Mandatory
MOD EDIT: Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

reply to post by Acharya


Fear them for the "Jr Ambassador of Death II"

reply to post by atlguy


Watch the Muslims come flooding in calling us Bigots

Were we afraid to call the Nazis bigots? We were afraid to call Stalin a bigot, are we afraid to admit North Korea is an opressive state.

Are we afraid to be "bigotted" towards them? No.

Any religion or political group spouting such nonsense doesn't deserve respect in our civilisations, especially when they are dividing them with fantasies and strict rules that they consider the word of Allah.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


So let it be said, so let it be written, so let it be done. Doesn't matter even a little to me.

reply to post by whywhynot


Cool

Originally posted by babloyi
I started going through the verses (or technically the "explanations" of the verse numbers) you posted, but I quickly realised that every one of them was either (at best) unintentionally mistranslated, or (at worst) intentionally misleading. I strongly suggest you review your sources.

I think it is disingenious to make such an accusation of poor translation without any evidence at all.

We have had good translations of the Koran in English for about 150 years and interestingly, Muslims don't deny the content of those verses so it is fascinating that you do.

I suggest you prove your accusation.

reply to post by babloyi


Lets take the first verse I cited. Apparently, according to you, it is a poor translation. Its actually a summary.

60:1 Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy.

Lets look at some other translations (5 in total).

060.001
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Choose not My enemy and your enemy for allies. Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve in that truth which hath come unto you, driving out the messenger and you because ye believe in Allah, your Lord? If ye have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them not friendship). Do ye show friendship unto them in secret, when I am Best Aware of what ye hide and what ye proclaim? And whosoever doeth it among you, he verily hath strayed from the right way.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

www.usc.edu...

60:1. O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.

www.harunyahya2.com...

60:1 O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, even though they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in GOD, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path.

www.submission.org...

Now it could be argued that an enemy here is an immediate enemy fighting against Muslims, Hence the statement "you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies" seems quite reasonable. However, the Koran elsewhere makes it clear who Allah's enemy is. Let's look at 6 translations.

002.098
YUSUFALI: Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL: Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.

SHAKIR: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

www.usc.edu...

2:98. Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

www.harunyahya2.com...

2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."

jahtruth.net...

2:98 Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

[2:98] Anyone who opposes GOD, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael, should know that GOD opposes the disbelievers.

www.submission.org...

Interestingly, this last translation uses the word 'oppose' rather than enemy.

So I decided to check whether the Arabic word translated as 'oppose' or as 'enemy'. When I translated the original Arabic into English,

2:98
[2:98] تُو کہہ دے کہ جو بھی جبرائیل کا دشمن ہے تو (وہ جان لے کہ) یقینا اسی (یعنی جبرائیل) نے اللہ کے اِذن سے اِس (کلام) کو تیرے دل پر اُتارا ہے جو اُس کی تصدیق کررہا ہے جو اس کے سامنے موجود ہے اور مومنوں کے لئے ہدایت اور خوش خبری کے طور پر ہے۔

using these 3 on-line translators translate.google.com... www.stars21.com... www.systran.co.uk...

All 3 of these sites translated the word into 'enemy' which would suggest the 5 sources which translated it into enemy and called a spade a spade are correct.

So Allah is clearly the enemy of disbelievers (2:98) and he warns his followers not to be friends with his enemies (60:1).

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by ollncasino

 

I think this is the original verse of 3/118

3:118 O you who believe, do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm; they even wish to see you suffer. Hatred flows out of their mouths and what they hide in their chests is far worse. We thus clarify the revelations for you, if you understand.

Let's have a look at 7 translations

003:118 Khan
:
O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

003:118 Maulana
:
O you who believe, take not for intimate friends others than your own people: they spare no pains to cause you loss. They love that which distresses you. Vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and that which their hearts conceal is greater still. Indeed We have made the messages clear to you, if you understand.

003:118 Pickthal
:
O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

003:118 Rashad
:
O you who believe, do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm; they even wish to see you suffer. Hatred flows out of their mouths and what they hide in their chests is far worse. We thus clarify the revelations for you, if you understand.

003:118 Sarwar
:
Believers, do not expose your privacy to the unbelievers. They like to mislead you and see that you are seriously harmed. Signs of animosity from their mouths have already become audible, but what they hide in their heads is even worse. We have certainly made Our evidence clear, if only you would consider it.

003:118 Shakir
:
O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

003:118 Sherali
:
O ye who believe ! take not others than your own people as intimate friends; they will spare no pains to ruin you. They love to see you in trouble. Hatred has already shown itself through the utterances of their mouths and what their breasts hide is greater still. We have made clear to you OUR commandments, if you will only use your understanding.

003:118 Yusufali
:
O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

www.comp.leeds.ac.uk...

The meaning seems pretty clear. Don't be friends with non Muslims - they want to harm you.



[edit on 25-8-2010 by ollncasino]

reply to post by ollncasino


Do you agree it's pointless to be critical of others religion? What is your belief in life? How would you find it if I criticized the way you live? Tell me!

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Any religion or political group spouting such nonsense doesn't deserve respect in our civilisations, especially when they are dividing them with fantasies and strict rules that they consider the word of Allah.

That's the thing. A large proprtion of these outraged 'Liberals' are actually Muslims.

reply to post by ollncasino

Originally posted by ollncasino
I think it is disingenious to make such an accusation of poor translation without any evidence at all.

We have had good translations of the Koran in English for about 150 years and interestingly, Muslims don't deny the content of those verses so it is fascinating that you do.

I suggest you prove your accusation.

Oh dear. You copy-paste a wall of text from some anti-Islam site, and then I am required to go through each one of them to show how it is faulty?
How about I do 2? One where a word has been mistranslated, and one where they've completely contorted the meaning of the verse. Perhaps then you can look again at the verses from a reliable source?

As for mistranslation, I suppose it is not really your fault. For example, in verse 5:51, the word "awliya" (أَوْلِيَاءَ) is sometimes translated as "friend", when in the context of this verse, it should really mean "guardian" or "protector". The major translation (and the one you probably would've seen if you looked it up yourself) would be the Yusuf Ali one. I believe it translates it as "friends and protectors".

The Muhammad Asad, Al-Muntakhab, Progressive Muslims, Abdel Haleem, Ahmed Ali, Ali Ünal, Ali Quli Qara'i, Amatul Rahman Omar, Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali, Shabbir Ahmed, Syed Vickar Ahamed, Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) and Farook Malik translations do not translate it as friends, just to name a few. Even many translations that most muslims consider controversial or deprecated, or with an indetermined status (eg. Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah, Muhammad Ahmed - Samira, Rashad Khalifa, Edward Henry Palmer) do not translate it as "friends".

And in case you still think this is a minority view, here are a couple of links:
Does Islam Forbid Befriending Non-Muslims?
Do not Take Christians and Jews as Awliya (a PDF)

Then for some examples of where the verses you quoted have been taken grossly out of context, in an attempt to mean something that the original text doesn't:
58:14-15, for example, isn't even talking about non-muslims. Neither is 9:107, and it doesn't mention anything about staying away from anyone either! 3:73 isn't even talking about a commandment to muslims, it is talking about what a section of "The People of the Book" say!

Good enough for now?

EDIT: the "arabic" that you posted isn't arabic at all. I think it is urdu. Also, God is the enemy of the "deniers of truth". This can include people who consider themselves muslim as well.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by babloyi]

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Any religion or political group spouting such nonsense doesn't deserve respect in our civilisations, especially when they are dividing them with fantasies and strict rules that they consider the word of Allah.

That's the thing. A large proprtion of these outraged 'Liberals' are actually Muslims.

Well I can tell you I'm my own person. Even though most of my quiz results labeled me as a Liberal or Conservative moderate/Libertarian. I would love to see who these secret Muslim Liberals are. Care to share the secret list? BTW are you a Atheist?

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by ollncasino

 

Do you agree it's pointless to be critical of others religion? What is your belief in life? How would you find it if I criticized the way you live? Tell me!

As long as you religious types keep yourself to yourself, then I have no problem with you.

You were however being clearly economical with the truth with the miss-translation you provided from the Koran.