Why the west should fear muslims

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Now this is what I'm talking about! I'll be taking part of "national burn a Koran" day.

I find it paradoxical that liberals are so quick to defend a religion that treats women as second class citizens.

I also find it strange that so many liberals defend a religion that is so full of hate for non Muslims, especially Jews.

"Read the book and learn something" they extort, while anyone who has ever read the Koran knows, just by that statement, that they have never opened the cover of a Koran themself.

"It is out of context" they cry. Again, anyone who has read the Koran, understands that contexts (and a chronological order, no less) are largely missing.

Liberals also defend the Koran on the basis that it contains messages of tolerance. Again, we are dealing with statements from people either displaying ignorance or who are trying to spread wilful missinformation.

The reason why the peaceful messages are null and void is a settled Islamic theological one - The Koran contradicts itself - apparently up to 3% of the Koran is a contradiction.

Being the eternal word of god, how can Allah contradict himself?

Couldn't he get it right the first time?

Nonetheless, Islamic scholars were forced to conclude that later statements that contradict earlier statements prevail over the earlier statements. The principle of 'Abrogation'.

Hence the earlier peaceful statements by Muhammad (when he was weak in Mecca) were simply replaced and superseded by his later hateful statements of violence against non Muslims made by him when he was a successful warlord in Medina.

That is a fundamental point.

Anyone who points towards the statements of peace made by Muhammad when he was weak, early in his career, are disingenuous (at best), wilfully lying or are ignorant.

While moderate Muslims may genuinely be ignorant and hard-line Muslims are presumably happy to deceive, the stance of Liberals towards Islam is a puzzle.


How can any liberal defend a religion started by a man who, during his 23 year career as a prophet, personally directed 28 military campaigns and was involved in planning almost 80?

How can a liberal defend a prophet who directed the beheading of the 800 male Jews of the Qurayzah tribe in medina (as stated in the Koran) after he had besieged them? A prophet who sold their women and children into slavery. A prophet who spent the night in bed with a one of the newly widowed wives, now a slave?

How can liberals defend a prophet who married a girl of 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9? Are liberals advocating paedophilia?

Perhaps the answer is that some European countries have up to 10% Muslim populations.

Are many of these 'liberals', in fact, 'wolves in sheep's clothing'?


[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

Originally posted by 19872012
I do think most Muslim people are decent and probably overlook the more hostile parts of their religion, I'm sure many individual Muslims are very charitable and peaceful, but the religion is not.

The Koran is written in 1,300 year old Arabic.

Most Muslims don't even know what they are chanting.

Their religious leaders do, though.



[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

This thread has so much misinformation that if this is the reason people should fear Islam (nevermind muslims), then they're doing something fairly foolish.

Originally posted by Freeborn
The problem is oozy, you are quite a regular, easy going, respectful and intelligent sort of guy.
Unfortunately a hell of a lot, if not most, people who regard themselves as Muslim aren't like you and interpret Islam quite differently my friend.

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a "a lot, if not most" people who consider themselves muslim AREN'T "regular, easy going, respectful and intelligent"?! The only difference I see between what oozy does and others do is that he seems to drink more and get into more fights than would be good for him .

Originally posted by lowki
Even if you have the Islam operating system properly installed,
either the Islamic Suicide Paradise virus is disabled,
or you're not showing any symptoms of it.

Are you suggesting that muslims, if they are not "highly westernised" have an "Islamic suicide paradise virus" installed? Are you suggesting that the belief system requires an "Islamic suicide paradise virus"?

People are SERIOUSLY suggesting that muslims/Islam have/foster a lower IQ? That Islam fosters a lack of education?!

Originally posted by Common Scarecrow

 

I wanted to see for myself so a few years ago I went out and bought an English translation of the koran.

It took me about 2 minutes to find places where it said things like, "Search out the Christians and the Jews and kill them under the rocks they hide under".

This is such a blatant lie, it is not even funny. NOWHERE IN THE ENTIRE QURAN IS THERE ANY SUCH THING. You have OBVIOUSLY not read the Quran.

Originally posted by ollncasino
"It is out of context" they cry. Again, anyone who has read the Koran, understands that contexts (and a chronological order, no less) are largely missing.

I don't get why so many go on and on about chronological context. While it makes an interesting exercise to read the Quran according to chronological context (which IS mostly available), it is definitely not necessary (and may in fact confuse things even more, since that isn't how it is MEANT to be read).
However, when people say "You have posted out of context" (as the OP of this thread has done), they don't mean chronological context. When a website is so deceitful that it quotes what is equivalent to "John said to not eat the apple" as "John said... eat the apple", then it definitely IS quoting out of context.

Originally posted by Freeborn
As Mohammed was illiterate he commanded The Companions to each memorise a portion of what was to become The Koran.

Just because Muhammad was illiterate, doesn't mean he didn't memorise the Quran himself (which he did). Several of his companions also memorised it (not just portions, either, although probably not all companions knew the whole Quran, and SOME may have memorised portions..not through any command of Muhammad, however). Muhammad DID however have the Quran written down by scribes, and some of his other Companions also had portions of the Quran written down.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Nonetheless, Islamic scholars were forced to conclude that later statements that contradict earlier statements prevail over the earlier statements. The principle of 'Abrogation'.

It is interesting to note that the Quran itself says that it abrogates nothing. While some scholars throughout history felt the need to include abrogation to explain some things, I'd say it was due to their own ignorance. Most scholars now are falling away from the idea of abrogation (which is good, because it is not according to their scripture). I'm curious as to where you got your figure of 3% being a contradiction, especially considering that each scholar (who subscribed to the idea of abrogation) seems to have a different number of verses.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Most Muslims don't even know what they are chanting.

I agree with you in this that many (non-arab) muslims do not know what they are saying when they recite the Quran, and it is definitely something that needs to change (through education).

[edit on 20-8-2010 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi


Not got much time so unable to answer your post in full yet, just one question....what about the contradictions?
Even one is one too many if The Koran is indeed the literal words of Allah.
Or what purpose do they serve?

Anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who has read The Koran is aware that there are some blatant contradictions.

reply to post by Acharya


Acharya,

Its sad that the Muslims wont integrate with western society, but the fault is their own. Countless western countries has tried to integrate them but their religion forbids it, the result is immigrant crime etc. The west has threaded them kindly, but we get angry people wanting more, and hating us in return. It is not the west that has done them wrong, they have bitten the hand that welcomed and fed them when they were in need, and now we should throw them out of our house for good back into the ruins they came from.

Can you please explain for me the relation between integration, religion and crime? Please elaborate on this because I love the opportunity to learn some facts.

And may I ask in what way you feel personally bitten?? Please give as much examples as you feel necessary.

Thank you.

Peace

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by lowki

 

My question was simple, are you suggesting I'm not a Muslim?

I'm quite open-minded,
and believe in many different Islam strains,
all of which are called "Muslim".

Do you wish to die while killing infidels,
so you could go to paradise?

You can still be a Muslim, even if you don't,
if I'm mistaken, please verify.

reply to post by Freeborn

If it were so obvious, you might have posted one or two? I know that it would be a big sidetracking of this thread, but you can't just say that 'anyone who is intelligent knows it' and expect me to believe.

If you DO decide to post some, however, while I don't expect to research and find it on your own, after getting it from whatever site, it'd be nice if you check it out in the Quran first, so it isn't like someone posting 'and slay them wherever you find them', but leaving out the start of the sentence where it says 'fight those who fight you..' (which happened earlier in this very thread, and probably every anti-islam thread in the history of these forums MULTIPLE TIMES).

PS: I too may be a bit too busy over this weekend to reply, but I'm sure you can wait for me till Monday .

[edit on 20-8-2010 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi


Mohammad spent his life conquering others, spreading his position as the only true voice of god through violent conquest.

The numerous violent campaigns carried out by Mohammad where not in self defense, but in pure aggressive conquest.

The story of Islam is one of violence, and it continues on to this very day.

There is no evidence that it will not continue on in this way.

How many are wolves dressed in sheep's clothing?

That is the big question.

Then the next, how do we separate the wolves from the sheep?

reply to post by poet1b


yes and if Islam hadn't allowed the Jews in Jeruselem to keep their faith and practice it when the Muslims conquered the area from the Romans in the 638 AD there likely might notbe any Jews today...


[edit on 20-8-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by babloyi
It is interesting to note that the Quran itself says that it abrogates nothing. While some scholars throughout history felt the need to include abrogation to explain some things, I'd say it was due to their own ignorance. Most scholars now are falling away from the idea of abrogation (which is good, because it is not according to their scripture).

Now that is interesting. That means then that no verse in the Koran can be overridden (abrogated) with a later verse that alters a verses's meaning. Hence every verse must be accepted, as is, as the eternal word of Allah.

Following that line of theological reasoning, what then does the Koran say about Muslim integration?


1. Non Muslims are both Muslim's and Allah's enemy.

Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1


2. If a Muslim is friends with a non-Muslim, Allah has prepared a terrible doom.

Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 58:14-15

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80


3. Muslims are instructed to stay away from and to not be friends with non Muslims.

Stay away from non-Muslims, especially those who disbelieve in the afterlife. 53:29

Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51


4. Non Muslims and their poisonous talk is to be ignored

Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 33:48


5. Non Muslims are liars and wrong doers to be stayed away from.

Stay away from non-Muslims. They are all liars. 9:107

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

The disbelieving people of the Scripture are liars. 59:11

Stay away from idolaters. 6:106

Disbelievers are liars. 16:39


6. Non Muslims are guilty, evil, wicked, evil-livers, who have diseased hearts and are not to be trusted

Muslims are the best people. Most Non-Muslims are "evil-livers." 3:11

Disbelievers are wicked and have diseased hearts. 9:125

Those who disbelieve are guilty folk. 45:31

Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29

Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9


7. Don't be friends with non-Muslims. Kill them instead.

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89


8. Non-Believers secretly hate Muslims - don't be friends

Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118


9. Don't pray for dead disbelievers or attend their funerals

Don't pray for dead disbelievers or attend their funerals. 9:84


So the Koran seems to be unequivocally anti-integration with clear prohibitions on Muslims becoming friends with Non Muslims.


[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

www.youtube.com...

Fear this peaceful religion? Come on!

reply to post by ollncasino


Not to mention Taqiyya, the demand to lie to non-Muslims, in order to bring people into the faith, and promote Shariah Law.

For those of you say this thread is racist, please tell me what you think about this Muslim protest in London. I'm getting a little sick and tired of the members here who say those who speak out against Muslim rage and hostility are racist.

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"Freedom Go To Hell" huh? Then get your stupid asses back to where you came from. You obviously left your country to GAIN freedom! Take some lessons from 9/11? Be prepared for the real holocaust? Go **** yourselves!

All religion needs to DIE. If this isn't proof of that then I don't know what is.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by pjslug]

I think the West should fear the people who fear Muslims.

Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated.

MLK Jr

There are certain things in our nation and in the world which I am proud to be maladjusted and which I hope all men of good-will will be maladjusted until the good societies realize — I say very honestly that I never intend to become adjusted to — segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry.

Ditto.

Words that never rang so true, especially in these times.

We have to remember, lest we forget the painful memories of the past. The rights that were earned in blood in peaceful protest extend to ALL people, and ALL faiths.

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

can't remember the author of that one, but relevant.

Peace.

Originally posted by pjslug
For those of you say this thread is racist, please tell me what you think about this Muslim protest in London. I'm getting a little sick and tired of the members here who say those who speak out against Muslim rage and hostility are racist.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b4b965c86ee7.jpeg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7935220403a7.jpeg[/atsimg]

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"Freedom Go To Hell" huh? Then get your stupid asses back to where you came from. You obviously left your country to GAIN freedom! Take some lessons from 9/11? Be prepared for the real holocaust? Go **** yourselves!

All religion needs to DIE. If this isn't proof of that then I don't know what is.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by pjslug]

A good proof of my statement if there ever was one.

Thank you for posting this.

Originally posted by ErEhWoN
I think the West should fear the people who fear Muslims.

Men often hate each other because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they can not communicate; they can not communicate because they are separated.

MLK Jr

There are certain things in our nation and in the world which I am proud to be maladjusted and which I hope all men of good-will will be maladjusted until the good societies realize — I say very honestly that I never intend to become adjusted to — segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry.

Ditto.

Words that never rang so true, especially in these times.

We have to remember, lest we forget the painful memories of the past. The rights that were earned in blood in peaceful protest extend to ALL people, and ALL faiths.

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

can't remember the author of that one, but relevant.

Peace.

Sometimes fear is good, its natures way of telling you to be alert of something. Fear is what keeps you from picking up a snake of you happend to come by one, its good for you Use your instincts for all their worth, they are there for a reason.

Yes, apparently these pictures were left out of the American and European media and were taken by a Canadian. Someone sent the e-mail to my grandmother and she sent it to me, so I'm not sure of the origin but they speak for themselves.

Who are the Muslim apologists on the board?

Its almost as if they had an ulterior motive to pretend they were standing up for freedom.

Perhaps they are a few of the millions of Muslims educated by Europe that wish to bite the hand that feeds them?


[edit on 20-8-2010 by ollncasino]

reply to post by Acharya

Sometimes fear is good, its natures way of telling you to be alert of something. Fear is what keeps you from picking up a snake of you happend to come by one, its good for you Use your instincts for all their worth, they are there for a reason.

It is not fear that keeps me from picking up that snake, it's wisdom, knowledge.

You do not have to fear something, to respect it.

Replace that fear with Love, and back it up with a .44 Magnum, in case the other side don't reciprocate.

Fear was good in the stone age, kept you alive. Or during the inquisition, fear was useful for the Church, to help keep the minions in line.

Now we just look it up on the Internets, and know better.