The universal suicide taboo--a religious conspiracy?

This thread will examine the possible conspiracy involved in the condemnation of suicide by major world religions, and will examine the theory (put forward here) that suicide is actually an act of great spiritual courage and is possibly the ONLY act that will break the wheel of rebirth and demonstrate true spiritual commitment.

First off, its important for me to put forth my own spiritual viewpoint, which is very similar to Philip K. Dick's, and to the ideas in ACIM, in that I believe this world is a false world, created and maintained as a hiding place from God and our true selves. This world, then, as the Buddhists and Hindus believe, is maya, or illusion. There are rules to this false world and primarily these rules ensure that you get invested in this world with your heart, mind and soul. Only to die in the end, of course...but in the meantime, focus your attention on your "false life". That's the game.

In Christianity we get lots of contradictory messages. Jesus in particular said some things that don't really add up, if you buy into this world at all.

"He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal." (John 12:25)
Now that's a doozy, folks. Who hates his life more than a suicide?

Could the major world religions be blocking the door to the easy way out?
Wouldn't their main focus be on keeping people in the "black iron prison?"
Could the ultimate freedom be found through the ultimate renouncement of this world, suicide?
Why not?

reply to post by joechip


That is a very interesting concept and you have a valid argument. Maybe suicide is the only way to escape this prison we call life?

This is indeed a touchy subject, so I'll TRY to tread lightly.

The ONLY thing that I see wrong with suicide are the loved one's that are left behind.

And even then - it's selfish human nature on their part - as messed up as it sounds. When a loved one dies, are they really upset because of where the person might go, or are they really upset because THEY will miss the person who is gone?

In all honestly, I see the world as a horrible place. I see people who use religion to kill others and hold humanity back. I see racism, hate, misunderstanding, lack of understanding, wars over complete nonsense - I can go on forever.

So with that said, I really don't see suicide as a bad thing. And I can't believe I'm actually saying it like that, but that's how I really see it - case in point.

Lets break this taboo and talk about this!

Forbidding suicide is religion's way of keeping the people fed up with this crummy life around. It's no fun when the toys up and kill themselves! Who'd there be left to play with? *sniff*

I realize I shouldn't have called this taboo "universal" as Jainism and some Buddhist thinking allows suicide without condemnation. Even Hinduism with restrictions. But regardless, It does come close to universality. And in the western religions is perhaps the most serious "sin" one can commit.

Interestingly, in Hinduism, it is accepted if one has no ambition, desires, or responsibilities left. And is done by starving one's self to death. That's a little closer to the idea I was getting at, but really what difference in the means? And who gets to decide they have no responsibilities? What does that even mean in an illusion?

I would say that these exceptions point to some degree of the same conspiracy in Hinduism. I mean, if its so undesirable and bad, why have exceptions?

Interesting stuff.

reply to post by joechip

Interestingly, in Hinduism, it is accepted if one has no ambition, desires, or responsibilities left.

I'm at 2 out of 3 on this one, and someone would watch my cats for me if I died.

Starvation, tho? Ugh. That takes a while. :-|

Suicide is generally not a good thing. But there is no condemnation on the other side for doing it. You just hindered your progress. Your soul sends you into the circumstances we all find ourselves in to learn certain things and overcome them so to speak. If you commit suicide then your soul will send you right back into similar circumstances until you learn what you needed to learn.

Eventually you will reach a point in you eternal evolution where you have more control of the circumstances you incarnate into.

I have strong resistance to suicide and it is most likely because I did it two or three times in previous lives. Everyone has or will but they will learn it is no easy way out. In between lives you will have time to reflect. The only time I would say it might be somewhat justified is if someone is in extreme pain and that hinders any progress they might make because all thier focus is on the pain they are in or perhaps in prison for the rest of thier life and cannot accomplish anything they need to for thier life's mission.

We all chose to come here to progress and learn in the worlds of form. There is still a lot of beauty and good in this world. Yes there is a lot of evil too but where your focus is that is what you will color this world with. Try an experiment. Take about 3 weeks and look for nothing but good and you might be surprised what you find.

This is one small moment in eternity don't waste it on suicide tackle this life and find the beauty and joy that is everywhere if you look for it. if you have a hard life know that it is part of working toward the day of liberation when we move on to the higher realms and savor the learning we did here.

We all have easy and hard lives at times we are paying off karma from past lives but we also get to rest and progress in several lives too.

Here is an interesting parable that might have some significance here: www.freeread.com...


[edit on 18-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by joechip
This thread will examine the possible conspiracy involved in the condemnation of suicide by major world religions, and will examine the theory (put forward here) that suicide is actually an act of great spiritual courage and is possibly the ONLY act that will break the wheel of rebirth and demonstrate true spiritual commitment.

I have thought of this a lot too. I just never have said it online or elsewhere, because obviously if you say it offline people will be scared because you even thought of such a thing, and spreading ideas like this online could be dangerous if the theory is wrong. Very interesting thread.

reply to post by hawkiye

I appreciate your response, but feel that we have completely different spiritual views that color our views of this.
I believe (rather firmly) that there is nothing to learn, but merely to remember, and that the concept of "progress" has no meaning in the spiritual. In other words we were created perfect. Whole. And connected with God. I believe we have fragmented ourself and experience a dream. As in a dream we are unaware of the waking state. The waking state is reality.
I do not believe I chose this world as a place to learn, as there is nothing to learn. Or grow as I was created perfect and whole. Or evolve or however you wish to phrase the concept. I believe I am hiding from myself and God. In a dream. I believe the parts of me that created this dream to hide manifest as "religion" and other control mechanisms to keep myself asleep.

I believe these "new age" concepts and others join the dogma of the major world religions in justifying this false world, giving it a redeeming value.
No offense, but I feel we are on totally different pages here. I read the parable you linked, and did not relate at all. I don't believe in hell, for instance. I believe I am asleep and dreaming. If I REALIZE it rather than simply believe it, maybe I wake up. Maybe you can take hold of the whole question and wake yourself up with a bullet.
I don't know, its just a theory. But I do know we are coming from wildly different starting places and I don't relate to your post. Thanks, though.

This could open the door to many problems because the mentality of some types of people attracted to this site. This type of thinking is only suitable for the strong minded. With that being said, I have had the same thought but have gone further in it and come to different conclusions. Just like you say, suicide is "the easy way out," literally. But it is not the correct way out. Escaping through suicide makes you not spiritually strong enough to handle the outside. You didn't have to struggle or make a difficult choice (many suicides see it as their only choice, therefore an easy one).

There is truth in this type of thinking the truth lies in the idea of the individual deciding to leave of their own accord. Remember the Buddha and how he told his followers he was leaving and ascended the different levels of his mind until he was free of this world. Would that be considered suicide. It is my belief that until a soul is able to leave in this way then they are not ready to leave.

Remember, most people here haven't even lived half of a life time. Don't decide you don't want to be on Earth without all the facts. Imagine if your 7 year old self decided to never go to an amusement park because he knew he couldn't ride the roller coasters at that time. Had he waited 7 more years he would have grown to the proper height but will never get to experience the roller coaster.

When it comes down to it, life is about experience, don't cut yours short. We all will take that great journey and know the ultimate answer one day (its completely beyond control), why be in such a rush?


MT

reply to post by ModestThought


Excellent points, under consideration.
As to Buddha leaving "spiritually" as you described, didn't he die from a piece of diseased pork?
And Jesus, can't we characterize his death fairly as "willing" if not suicide exactly? I mean if you let someone kill you...Don't think "Jesus" here, imagine yourself "allowing" your own death if you could easily prevent it...you get my point, I'm sure.

I would hasten to say, thanks to everyone pointing out the particular "danger" inherent in free discussion of this topic...this is an intellectual discussion of the spiritual dimension of suicide and certainly I am not advocating that anyone commit suicide. That being said, everyone dies, and in a fairy short time period, as well. Doesn't it seem a little odd that we are so much more comfortable with that death coming from a car accident, heart attack, cancer, etc...rather than one's own free choice. Looked at objectively, this is odd, I think.

I would like to add, that you touched on parts of this I'd really love to discuss more. For example, the concept that if you aren't ready and able to "spiritually" leave as you described, what that means in terms of "waking up" when you die. If renunciation of the world is key, wouldn't such complete denial mean that you were "ready" for God and to be done with separateness? I suppose that idea requires one to accept the concept that one is truly holy and complete but merely asleep in a dream he build to stay asleep in. And maybe a few other assumptions as well...that God is all-loving for example. I do realize my ideas don't translate well without a common set of assumptions. Great post and thanks.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by joechip]

I've always been very against suicide , just the thought of people doing that to themselves sickens me . And its not because of any religious or spiritual reasons.
People doing themselves harm has always annoyed the s*** out of me for some reason .
I believe people should respect their bodies and especially their lives , no matter what their excuse for feeling sorry for themselves .
To me suicide is the ultimate form of selfishness & weakness .
People even contemplating it & talking about doing it literally need to have some sense slapped into them . Life isn't about giving up if things get tough , its about persevering & pushing on whatever the circumstances , life is what you make it and it can always get better imho .
I even find the practice of seppuku the Samurai would perform to attenuate shame and protect their honor if they failed in their duty to be the opposite , weak and shameful , the strong could bear their shame & I find that more honorable .
I've noticed quite a few posts on this site where people say they hope that if aliens come they wipe us out of existence because we a flawed species that doesn't deserve to exist . Speak for yourself I say.
I simply do not understand that attitude at all , its pathetic .
Anyhoo this is just my thoughts on the subject and I'm sure that some will take offense to my narrow minded point of view , thats fine , we're all entitled to our own opinions .
Peace

reply to post by Takka


Is this coming from someone who has an easy life?
How can you judge when you haven't lived in another's shoes?
Just because your body may work perfect or just because your social/financial/legal situations are good doesn't mean other people's are.
Also, some people are mentally unbalanced and in pain.

Not necessarily speaking about myself, but it pisses ME off when people like you call others "weak". You have no basis of comparison as far as walking in another person's shoes. None of us do.

And I'm not trying to be a jerk - regardless of how that last paragraph sounded.

In the biography I read on Buddha, he was against suicide. Some of his disciples started killing themselves when they took the teachings to mean that there is no point. Buddha quickly gave a talk on this subject and he was against suicide. If you look at his philosophy it makes sense, he was against self-mutilation period. However, I don't think he would think it right for those close to the suicide to dwell on the past and judge the suicide for his actions. He would say the suicider misunderstood and had clouded thoughts, but he wouldn't blame him lol.

It's not an easy way out. Can you imagine how hard it would be to kill yourself? It obviously takes a lot of courage, there are too many examples of people who "Couldn't do it"

To blame the suicider is a selfish act, it's the easiest way to gain closure in the situation.

The same people who say suicide is selfish, are going to say gaining closure at a funeral is un-selfish. Think about it. Does it help that this is predictable? I doubt it.

People actually talk about this in real life all the time, cause there is always one in the news... Just listen to them playing the blame game each time, acting like they can't believe it happened and how anyone could do it. But I know they know it can happen and that people will do it, because they've talked about it dozens of times as they do everytime a suicide is in the news. But they never say anything new, just this aghast reaction to something they are subjected to regularly lol.

reply to post by Novise


I would love an excerpt of that talk Buddha gave from that biography you read. I'll do a little searching for myself if you could give me the name of the book. Many thanks.

edit for spelling

[edit on 18-7-2010 by joechip]

I'll find it. The book is "Old Path White Clouds" by Thich Nhat Hanh. Also personally, I don't think you get any "points" spiritually for commiting suicide. Just like you don't get points in life for bungee jumping. I think it's an extreme act but I don't judge those who have done it.

It is a leap of faith but what is being proven? There is nothing to prove.

reply to post by joechip

I appreciate your response, but feel that we have completely different spiritual views that color our views of this.

Of course, it is our diversity of opinions that makes ATS what it is.

I believe (rather firmly) that there is nothing to learn, but merely to remember,

Wait I thought this was a theory? Why would we forget in the first place if we are perfect? or did we make a choice?

and that the concept of "progress" has no meaning in the spiritual.

Which is precisely why we might "choose" to descend into the worlds of form to gain new experience we can't get on the spiritual plane.

In other words we were created perfect. Whole. And connected with God. I believe we have fragmented ourself and experience a dream. As in a dream we are unaware of the waking state. The waking state is reality.

Ok I agree this is like a dream however if we were created perfect then why don't we just snap out of it? How come perfection has such a hard time waking up? Flaw in the matrix perhaps? Naw that would be an imperfection. How did we as perfect creations get stuck in the mire of this life? On other words how did perfection screw up? The only thing that makes sense if we were created perfect is we must have chosen to descend into this dream world to experience form.

I do not believe I chose this world as a place to learn, as there is nothing to learn. Or grow as I was created perfect and whole. Or evolve or however you wish to phrase the concept. I believe I am hiding from myself and God. In a dream. I believe the parts of me that created this dream to hide manifest as "religion" and other control mechanisms to keep myself asleep.

Then you need to answer the above question. Also how did you learn to walk and talk? How did you learn to interact with others, to not harm, to love, to feel, to smell, to touch, to dream within the dream, to suffer, and to experience joy etc etc..?

If there is nothing to learn and everything is perfection ok great but now I am bored, gee think I ll choose to descend into the worlds of forms for some new experience or at least to forget that I already know everything and need to forget to not be bored. So still it had to be a choice ? Even if you could hide from god would not that be your choice too?

I believe these "new age" concepts and others join the dogma of the major world religions in justifying this false world, giving it a redeeming value.

Wow and think your belief we were all created perfect and just need to wake up is not new age dogma? :0

No offense, but I feel we are on totally different pages here. I read the parable you linked, and did not relate at all. I don't believe in hell, for instance. I believe I am asleep and dreaming.

None taken however did you expect everyone to believe exactly as you?​ You asked for opinions and you got some including mine. The parable was just that I don't believe in the religious concept of hell either and the point of the parable was that where ever we find ourselves the place is what we make of it. It was not to convince anyone of heaven or hell in the traditional sense. You can believe anything you like I am not here to convince you otherwise I just gave my opinion and you did say it was a theory, however now you tell me it is a firm belief. No offense I made some observations based on it being a theory where it does not seem to make sense, that should give some pause on this.

If I REALIZE it rather than simply believe it, maybe I wake up. Maybe you can take hold of the whole question and wake yourself up with a bullet.
I don't know, its just a theory. But I do know we are coming from wildly different starting places and I don't relate to your post. Thanks, though.

Ok now we are back to it being a theory. Let me just say "maybe" is not a good reason to use a bullet to find out. It sounds to me like you might be trying to justify suicide in your own mind. Not that your on the verge or anything but looking for justification. Then what? Let me suggest that if we are perfect and connected to god which I agree we are connected and perhaps perfect in that sphere we came from so to speak then why not seek to find out from the source? How can one hide from god if it is perfection? Are you telling me the perfect god can't find you because you are hiding in a dream? Talk about new age... But the bottom line is that makes no sense so why don't you try asking, or meditation, or what ever your belief system is to connect with god and get an answer before trying a bullet based on a theory of "maybe" The key is determination and perseverance. The bullet theory is not a good way to find out. There is a a driving spiritual current/connectedness to god that drives all life and pulls us forward why not try and get a more direct connection and get some solid answers instead of speculating. If you put your attention on it long enough and are determined you will get some answers through the soul!


[edit on 18-7-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by impaired

Also, some people are mentally unbalanced and in pain.

Fair enough , I can understand people who are mentally unstable or people in constant pain due to injuries/disease .
To be more specific I'm referring to those who have have nothing physically or mentally wrong with them , but kill themselves over things like break ups (I know of several people having done this , I dare say this is a very common thing) Putting their family and friends through this kind of pain and loss to me is very selfish . I understand they get themselves into an irrational state of mind , and may not be thinking about the consequences of their actions .
A stronger person wouldn't do such a thing , hence in my opinion - weak minded.
And no I can't put myself in their shoes , but I know I would never even consider doing such a thing .
There are plenty of people who have had very hard lives and haven't resorted to suicide .
I understand my point of view will piss some people off , but it doesn't change how I feel about the subject.
People who kill themselves for what seems to me to be silly reasons pisses me off .
I cant help that , that's the way my mind works , even watching people off themselves in movies makes me angry .



[edit on 18-7-2010 by Takka]

reply to post by joechip

Bible references? Consider Samson in the OT...

Judg 16:29-30
29 And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.
-----
Samson was also named/honored in the "Hall of Faith" in the NT.

Heb 11:32
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson , and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets
_______________________________________________

I am of the opinion that we are put here on Earth to help each other so the longer we stay the more we can help people.

Peace






[edit on 18-7-2010 by FearNoEvil]

There is the right to life. There is also the right to death. Suicide is valid. It is selfish of the living to deny suicidal people who want to be free to move on with their lives in the afterlife. Face it, animals commit suicide too. So while everyone else is stuck on this planet, I see no point why suicide should be considered taboo.