If the confederacy would have WON!!

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Ah yes, "sheeple" forgot that one thank you! It really just does not make sense to you does it? There are people that disagree with you not because of ignorance, or fear or anything of the sort, but because they actually, truly do agree with people like President Obama, on policy and with people like Alexander Hamilton and James Madison on what the role of the state versus federal governments should be.

She believes that a strong federal government should trump the governments of states. I've met many other people like her as well, smart, educated and reasonable people whom believe fully in central government.

I know it will sound cliche, but I, personally prefer a parliamentary-minister system to your congressional-presidential one, but that is a debate for another day.

So do you really believe that a person cannot be reasonable if they disagree with you? Is that why you feel that you have to call them names, and insinuate that they are ignorant or cowardice?

In the end the Federalists won in the Civil War, and those that would agree with them now, have inherited that victory in today's United States Federal System.

No it does not make sense to me how people can love the government so much. It does not make sense to me how one can make so convoluted the Constitution. It does not make sense to me how people would choose tyranny over freedom.

reply to post by __rich__


I'm sorry but the Decleration of Independence has no constitutional weight. It came before even the Articles of Confederation. It was never ratified as a governing document. It was a letter of protest to the King of England. Some may even call it a decleration of war. However, it is no way part of the contract/compact that the states ratified as the constitution.

reply to post by __rich__



Please note the bit about changing the law to make children born of slaves citizens

(and also the reaction of northern workers to the freed slaves)

"Changing the Laws The Right to Vote Timeline
library.thinkquest.org...


The Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments were important to the Civil Rights Movement. The Thirteenth Amendment ended slavery in the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment allowed Blacks to have the same rights as Whites. The Fifteenth Amendment allowed Blacks to vote. Although many people were against the amendments at first, the amendments were very helpful for the Civil Rights Movement.

Thirteenth Amendment

The Thirteenth Amendment was added to the Constitution in 1865. It made slavery illegal in the United States. Many states passed laws to protect the rights of Blacks, but white people against racial equality, mostly from the South, fought against similar laws when Congress tried to pass them. In addition to the equality issue, some states did not accept the Thirteenth Amendment because they believed freeing the slaves would cause other problems.

Slave owners were used to the slaves’ cheap labor and paying others to do the same work would cost more and lower how much money they made. Some slave owners wanted the government to pay for their freed slaves. Workers in the North wanted Blacks to stay in the South because they were afraid Blacks would take their jobs for less pay and poorer working conditions. Many slaves still could not obtain a good job because of discrimination and the lack of a good education. Blacks still did not have the same Civil Rights as Whites.

Fourteenth Amendment

Congress passed the Fourteenth Amendment, sometimes called the "Great Amendment," to help protect the rights of the freed slaves. It was added to the Constitution in 1868. It stated that all people who were born in the United States, including African-Americans, are considered natural citizens and have the same rights as all other Americans. It also prohibited any state from making or enforcing any laws that took away or hurt an individual’s civil rights. After the Fourteenth Amendment passed, many African-Americans still didn’t have all the rights Whites had. Many Whites, especially in the South, continued to treat the Blacks unfairly.

Voting was one right many Blacks had taken away. Many Blacks didn’t vote because some Whites didn’t want the Blacks to have this power. Voting provided power to change things. These Whites said that Blacks weren’t smart enough to vote and wouldn’t know who to vote for. They purposely did not tell the Blacks when or how to vote and did other things so Blacks could not vote.

Fifteenth Amendment

The Fifteenth Amendment was added to the Constitution in 1870 to protect Blacks’ voting rights. It prohibited the national and state governments from refusing citizens the right to vote because of their race, color, or because they were a slave at one time. After the Fifteenth Amendment was passed, a large number of Blacks voted during the late 1860’s through the 1880’s. The African-Americans used their voting rights to gain political power and to protect their rights. Soon, southern states started passing laws to make it harder for Blacks to vote. Some states passed laws that required people to pay a poll tax before voting. Others required people to pass a reading or writing test before voting. Since most Blacks had been slaves their whole lives, they had little money to pay a poll tax and did not know how to read or write. Some people were still trying to take away the civil rights of African Americans.

Although many were against the amendments, the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments played an important part in the Civil Rights Movement. The amendments declared that Blacks were real people and should be treated as equals and not as property. The amendments also gave Blacks the right to vote, making it possible to change things."

as I said nothing has changed...




[edit on 8-7-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 8-7-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by __rich__

 

I'm sorry but the Decleration of Independence has no constitutional weight. It came before even the Articles of Confederation. It was never ratified as a governing document. It was a letter of protest to the King of England. Some may even call it a decleration of war. However, it is no way part of the contract/compact that the states ratified as the constitution.

I knew someone would pipe up and say :"it's not law!", just like any reference to the preamble.

However, I never said it was law, just that it is an interesting observation of the Founders' intent.

Either "all men are created equal", or not.

Next comes the "slaves weren't considered men" argument.

reply to post by __rich__


It is interesting to read those words. However, their actions were in direct opposition of their stated intentions.

According to the Decleration their intention was to allow people to toss off government that no longer worked for them. We see how well that worked. It has become a commonly held belief in legal circles that there is no right to revolution, revolt, or secession.

Yet the Decleration of Independence says;

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,

In the short, that means intentions not made in to action are so much vapor in the ether.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
No it does not make sense to me how people can love the government so much. It does not make sense to me how one can make so convoluted the Constitution. It does not make sense to me how people would choose tyranny over freedom.

The fact that this does not make sense to you, should concern you. The lack of understanding of an ideology, especially one so incredibly common in your country, and so directly opposed to your own leaves you at a severe disadvantage.

Remember first and foremost when learning about others ideologies to suspend judgment first, do not dismiss them. You do not have to believe it to be true, in fact you'll probably think they are completely dead wrong, but the key is understanding why they believe what they do, the core philosophical principals behind it.

Understanding the enemy is the first step in defeating them. The Confederacy did not at all understand the Union's culture, and the Old Southern culture was destroyed.

Knowledge first, in all things.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


The Confederacy understood quite well that their enemies were not the abolitionists, but the industrialists who funded them. Within a generation, these industrialists would be at war with the very idealists they supported a few years earlier. Any belief that the Union was guided by those free from prejudice, concerned only with a more perfect union, simply does not hold up under closer scrutiny. One need only look to the Industrial Revolution to see that the true intention of Union leadership was by no means the betterment of his fellow man.

Well, some people will never be convinced, so I will just post some more video and song that honors those that fell and celebrates those that still remember!

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

Saw you a-marchin' with Robert E. Lee
You held your head high tryin' to win the victory
You fought for your folks, but you didn't die in vain
Even tho' you lost they speak highly of your name, 'cause

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

I heard your teeth chatter from the cold outside
Saw the bullets open up the wounds in your side
I saw the young boys as they began to fall
You had tears in your eyes 'cause you couldn't help at all, but

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

I saw Gen'ral Lee raise a sabre in his hand
Heard the cannons roar as you made your last stand
You marched in the battle of the Grey and the Red
When the cannon smoke cleared, took days to count the dead, 'cause

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

When Honest Abe heard the news about your fall
The folks thought he'd call a great vict'ry ball
But he asked the band to play the song Dixie
For you, Johnny Reb, and all that you believe

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
Yeah, you fought all the way, Johnny Reb

You fought all the way
Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

The sun shone bright and clear that day
We all left Washington
To lick the Rebel boys in grey
At the Battle of Bull Run
They came from Pennsylvania and some from Maryland
To see the Rebel boys get spanked by Honest Abe’s broad hand

We said we’ll run ‘em to Atlanta and to Galveston Bay
But they ran us back to Washington and Philadelphia
And Philadelphia

The ladies wore their brightest shawls
The gentlemen were gay
They came to see their Yankee boys whip old Virginia
I held my momma’s hand and skipped
When a soldier said to me
Would you rather have Jeff Davis’ hat or the sword of Bobbie Lee

We said we’ll run ‘em to Atlanta and to Galveston Bay
But they ran us back to Washington and Philadelphia
And Philadelphia

And then the general doffed his hat and said let’s rest a spell
And for the first time we all heard that awful rebel yell
The waters of Manassas Creek became a ruby red
and many a Reb and Yankee boy lay in the willows dead

We said we’ll run ‘em to Atlanta and to Galveston Bay
But they run us back to Washington and Philadelphia
And Philadelphia

A fight locked in the chest of time too horrible to tell
Virginny’s cool green countryside became a lake of hell
Don’t count your chicks before they’re hatched
Or your work until it’s done
Remember yes remember long the Battle of Bull Run

We said we’ll run ‘em to Atlanta and to Galveston Bay
But they ran us back to Washington and Philadelphia
And Philadelphia

The Wearing of the Gray
These are the lyrics to a song written shortly after the War Between the States.





The fearful struggle’s ended now, and peace smiles on our land
And though we’ve yielded, we have proved ourselves a faithful band.
We fought them long, we fought them well, we fought them night and day
And bravely struggled for our rights while wearin’ of the Gray!


And now that we have ceased to fight and pledged our sacred word
That we against the Union’s might no more will draw the sword
We feel despite the sneers of those who never smelled the fray
That we’ve a manly honest right to wearin’ of the Gray.


Our Cause is lost, no more we fight ‘gainst overwhelmin’ power.
All wearied are our limbs and drenched with many a battle shower.
We feign would rest for want of strength and yield them up the day
And lower the flag so proudly borne while wearin’ of the Gray.


Defeat is not dishonor; No, of honor not bereft.
We should thank God that in our breast this priceless boon is left.
And though we weep just for those braves who stood in proud array
Beneath our flag and nobly died while wearin’ of the Gray.


When in the ranks of war we stood and faced the deadly hail
Our simple suits of Gray composed our only coats of mail.
And on those awful hours that marked the bloody battle day
In memory we will still be seen a wearin’ of the Gray.


Oh, should we reach that glorious place where waits the sparklin’ crown
For everyone who for the right his soldier’s life lay down,
God grant to us the privilege upon that happy day
Of clasping hands with those who fell a wearin’ of the Gray.

reply to post by getreadyalready


A star for the Johnny Horton fan.

Perhaps "Jim Bridger" would be appropriate for a discussion concerning the treatment of the Native Americans by the Union victors during the Indian Wars .

[edit on 8-7-2010 by 23refugee]

reply to post by 23refugee


There are some good Johnny Horton ones for that too, lol!

We need more threads on the Native American aspect of the US settlement and rise to superpower. There is a great book, I can't remember the whole name, but it is "something...Looking East" It is the history of America written from the perspective of people facing the tide of Europeans moving westward, instead of facing the "frontier" in the West. Very insightful.

People in this thread need to remember that much like all other wars, the civil war was mostly common men fighting for their families and livelihood and survival. The guys on the front line weren't setting out to change the world, they were just trying to stay alive and get home. The rebels may have lost, but at least they gave their lives for a duty, and a cause, and they had the courage to see it through. Today, we sit on our couches and complain. How many of us would risk our lives for an ideal? Hell a lot of us wouldn't even risk our lives in the face of physical aggression, let alone an abstract thought!!

I saw a 4th of July sign and it made me sad, because I knew that it was no longer true. It said, "Better to starve as a free man, than get fat as a slave." I agree, but I can see many people these days, that would justify taking the path of the fat slave, and not understand why anyone would think it ws wrong .

reply to post by 23refugee


Found it:

Facing East from Indian Country
Daniel Richter

reply to post by getreadyalready


I'm from the area of the borders of KY, WV, and VA. My people are intimately familiar with the folly that was the Civil War.
Like many wars, no matter how noble the cause of either side may seem, people died so some rich man could make a dollar.
What causes me to join these discussions is a disgust for the holier-than-thou disdain so many people express for those with a Southern heritage. As if a Northern heritage is any better. Both sides treated somebody like crap and no matter who you are, somewhere along the line, your people did too.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Thank you. I'll have to put it on my list. I'm positive someone recommended that very title to me before.

For an example of the disdain I abhor, check out this movie review. Sorry I'm too ignorant to link you there.
www.cinescene.com/shari/cmountain.htm
Cold Mountain
by Shari L. Rosenblum

[edit on 9-7-2010 by 23refugee]

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

Seems you all over looked Texas's key words . .

The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact.


Someone was not obeying the Constitution.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

[edit on 7/8/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]

Oh, you mean the part of the Constitution about slavery. "(No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.)
The part that says you have to send slaves back.
And that helps prove "How?" that the civil was wasn't about slavery?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by maybereal11

 

States can make any laws that they want, as long as it does not violate the Constitution. The laws the North made violated the Constitution.

The Federal Government allowed the states to Continue the unconstitutional laws, and even added onto them with unfair tariffs.

The Federal government was complicit in the ignoring of the Constitution, so the South left.

It is not rocket science. Even us "dumb rednecks" understand it.

OK, let's have a little inconvenient history. Th original rednecks were a large group of union coal miners from West Virginia who wore red bandanas as identification in their war against the "detectives" from Baldwin-Felts Agency in Bluefield who were hired as union busting mine guards to fight organizing efforts in Southern WV. See, www.wvculture.org...
And, in fact, West Virginia in effect seceeded from Virginia as a result of VA seceeding from the union. It (WV) became a state in the Union during the Civil War, in 1863. WV sent twice as many troops to the Union as it did to the Confederacy. Take a look at www.wvculture.org...
So the original "rednecks" were union (UMWA) loving liberals from a union (USA) state. Sorry.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by 4nsicphd


You must have missed the thread where some member dismissed the notion that redneck refers a specific group because "Gretchen Wilson made it cool to be a redneck woman and rednecks are just people who work and play hard". Also," hillbilly" might be an ethnic slur, but don't be so sensitive 'cause it's funny and reminds them of "Deliverance " and run til you can't hear banjo music, Ha, Ha.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by 23refugee]

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by ProjectJimmy

 

As I said and others have said, it played a part as tea played a part in the War of Independence.

It is not an admission, and those who see it as the sole reason, or even the driving reason are mistaken. It was the tip of the iceberg for the underlying cause, which was states rights, and the non-adherence to the Constitution, as stated by Texas.

The South did surrender, but we all lost that war. Not just the South. That was the beginning of the decline of rights for all.

As for the slaves being better off? Not by a long shot for at least half a century, if not more.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

WOW! The highlighted above has got to be about the most ignorant thing I've ever read at ATS. Good work on that milestone.