If the confederacy would have WON!!

Reply to post by madhadder545

actually if you do a tiny bit of research about the politics in that era of america you would see that althought the confederacy did not win southern politicans basically ruled US laws etc....why? Because the north relied on them for materials to make textiles and the like.....nothing would have changed if they had won....we would still be where we are now.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

I didn't have time to read all of the post on this thread, so sorry if this has been posted

I just wanted to include this quote from lincoln My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

In a way we are all slaves until we are truly self sufficient we always will be.

Reply to post by NewlyAwakened

Wow. Your whole post is absolute falsehood.

And fir the people bashing the south . . .

Y'all are full of unadulterated bull crap.

Texas alone is the home of Dell, NASA, and Texas Instruments.

The south invented the cotton gin, sugar refining, steam engine lubrication, ISA Bus for computers, RAM for computers, the worlds first 1 GHz processor, microchips, traffic signals, traffic lights, White-Out, artificial hearts, electric typewriters, car radios, MASH hospitals.

Should I go on?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Just one teeny, tiny problem with allowing states to pass their own laws: States could pass laws that unfairly discriminate against certain folks. Hell, a state could pass a law that would legalize lynching certain people. Allowing states to make laws without federal oversight means that all kinds of crazy laws could spring up, which would do nothing but start a tidal wave of lawsuits and headaches for the federal government.

It's not as easy as "states rights" vs "nanny state". Some people like to think it is and they're further conditioned by talking heads to stick with it.

Originally posted by The Sword
Just one teeny, tiny problem with allowing states to pass their own laws: States could pass laws that unfairly discriminate against certain folks. Hell, a state could pass a law that would legalize lynching certain people. Allowing states to make laws without federal oversight means that all kinds of crazy laws could spring up, which would do nothing but start a tidal wave of lawsuits and headaches for the federal government.

It's not as easy as "states rights" vs "nanny state". Some people like to think it is and they're further conditioned by talking heads to stick with it.

No, they couldn't. Every state has a Constitution which must conform to the Constitution of the United States. Everyone had protections under the law except of course for blacks who counted as 3/5ths of a person. We would actually enjoy far more freedoms were the rights of states left intact.

reply to post by madhadder545


Admittedly its only my opinion but I believe that if the Southern states had been able to secede(SP?) from the Union then eventually within say thirty years they would have come back , in order to get access to the more industrial north . Anyway I would be happy if I acted on principals in half the way Robert E Lee did .

Cheers xpert11.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened
In fact, the first thing the Confederacy did upon secession was declare war on the United States.

The whole war was #'ed up.

Actually the first thing they did was send a peace delegation to Lincoln. They offered him gold in return for the federal forts through out the CSA. Lincoln refused to meet with them.

Then Lincoln, despite a promise made to Virginia, sent reenforcements to Fort Sumter. He basically said he was going to re-arm and resupply the fort. His basic plan was to use it as a blockade on the port of Charelston. When word reached SC, then the war began. They weren't going to let Lincoln blockade one of their most important ports.

Especially after they had offered peace and he had promised not to resupply Fort Sumter.

Don't even get me started on the fact that North Carolina wanted to stay out of everything. However, Lincoln said they had absolutely no choice it was one side or the other. North Carolina said "well we supported you untill you became a douche." Then they joined the CSA.

Nobody really talks about the fact that Lincoln eschewed peace at every turn. No matter what alternative was offered he scoffed and chose war.

[edit on 8-7-2010 by MikeNice81]

My Spelling is horrid.

[edit on 8-7-2010 by MikeNice81]

reply to post by xstealth

They didn't want to be ran by a tyrannical government.

You are correct. They considered the government tyrannical because they were saying "NO MORE SLAVERY"



If the confederacy had won, the world would be much, much, worse off.

The building in Chicago where the bulls play, that is called "The house that Michael Jordan built"

...it would LITERALLY become the house that MJ built.

Along with several hundred of people with the same skin color as him.

[deleted]



[edit on 8-7-2010 by NewlyAwakened]

reply to post by DarkStormCrow

I stand corrected. Star for that.

reply to post by Snarf


I get tired of this kind of statement. Missouri and New Jersey both had slaves until they were made unconstitutional. Both were Union states.

1831 - 1865

PBS Africans In America

Northern blacks were forced to live in a white man's democracy, and while not legally enslaved, subject to definition by their race. In their all-black communities, they continued to build their own churches and schools and to develop vigilance committees to protect members of the black community from hostility and violence.

Even More From PBS

The situation in what was then the northwest region of the country was even worse. In Ohio, the state constitution of 1802 deprived blacks of the right to vote, to hold public office, and to testify against whites in court. Over the next five years, more restrictions were placed on African Americans. They could not live in Ohio without a certificate proving their free status, they had to post a $500 bond "to pay for their support in case of want," and they were prohibited from joining the state militia. In 1831 blacks were excluded from serving on juries and were not allowed admittance to state poorhouses, insane asylums, and other institutions. Fortunately, some of these laws were not stringently enforced, or it would have been virtually impossible for any African American to emigrate to Ohio.

In Illinois there were severe restrictions on free blacks entering the state, and Indiana barred them altogether. Michigan, Iowa, and Wisconsin were no friendlier. Because of this, the black populations of the northwestern states never exceeded 1 percent.

African Americans also faced violence at the hands of white northerners. Individual cases of assault and murder occured throughout the North, as did daily insults and harassment. Between 1820 and 1850, Northern blacks also became the frequent targets of mob violence. Whites looted, tore down, and burned black homes, churches, schools, and meeting halls. They stoned, beat, and sometimes murdered blacks. Philadelphia was the site of the worst and most frequent mob violence. City officials there generally refused to protect African Americans from white mobs and blamed blacks for inciting the violence with their "uppity" behavior.

One More About THe Great Northern Hate of Slavery

Although many antislavery societies had emerged in the 1830s throughout the North, abolitionists and antislavery sympathizers were greatly outnumbered by those who felt no aversion to slavery. Some northerners went so far as to capture blacks and send them into slavery.

Printed in an 1839 issue of the Anti-Slavery Almanac, this image depicts northern men capturing a free black. The inscription under the image read:

Nov. 20, 1836, (Sunday,) Peter John Lee, a free colored man of Westchester Co., N.Y., was kidnapped by Tobias Boudinot, E. K. Waddy, John Lyon, and Daniel D. Nach, of N. Y., city, and hurried away from his wife and children into slavery. One went up to shake hands with him, while the others were ready to use the gag and chain. . . . This is not a rare case. Many northern freeman have been enslaved, in some cases under color of law. Oct. 26, 1836, a man named Frank, who was born in Pa., and lived free in Ohio, was hurried into slavery by an Ohio Justice of the Peace. When offered for sale in Louisiana, he so clearly stated the facts that a slaveholding court declared him FREE --thus giving a withering rebuke to northern servility.

If Lincoln had been able to enact his original plan Michael Jordan wouldn't even be an American. Lincoln wanted to recolonize other parts of the world with American slaves. He wanted to send them all out of the country because he did not believe that blacks and whites could ever live together in a free society.

Something a little more modern from the US Census

When the other four indexes are taken into account and the ranks averaged across the five indexes, the five most segregated metropolitan
areas for Blacks in 2000 were,in order, Milwaukee-Waukesha,
Detroit, Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria, St. Louis, and Newark (Milwaukee-
Waukesha and Detroit are less than one average rank apart). Cincinnati,
Buffalo-Niagara Falls, and New York, are roughly tied for number six, but
each is more than one average rank behind Newark. The top ten are
rounded out by Chicago and Philadelphia (the latter roughly tied
with Kansas City, New Orleans, and Indianapolis).

Only one of the top thirteen most segregated MSAs with more than one-million people is part of the former CSA.

According to the same study

The top ten most segregated large metropolitan areas were in the older Northeast-Midwest “Rust Belt,” which has tended to lose
population in recent decades. All but one of the least segregated
large metropolitan areas were in the West and South, where metropolitan
areas have tended to gain population.

So, it would seem that the great myth of the free and fair "North" is just that a myth. It has never existed and even in modern times continues to prove it self the exact oposite.

Your snarky comments might pass as witty with some, but they show a general ignorance of the complexity of race relations in America.

Originally posted by Snarf
reply to post by xstealth

 

They didn't want to be ran by a tyrannical government.

You are correct. They considered the government tyrannical because they were saying "NO MORE SLAVERY"

If the confederacy had won, the world would be much, much, worse off.

The building in Chicago where the bulls play, that is called "The house that Michael Jordan built"

...it would LITERALLY become the house that MJ built.

Along with several hundred of people with the same skin color as him.

Fortunately, we avoided that scenario.
Luckily, we have a government who can, using the force of law, ensure that at least a few of those sharing MJ's skin color got to build that house and make a living wage doing it. Of course, those things probably have little to do with a Union victory, more likely due to the struggles of those "rednecks".

Well, here's the thing. Arizona only passed MLK as a holiday AFTER tourists decided to boycott the state. I think that MLK did more for this country than Saint Patrick, a holiday i don't celebrate.

So they now pull this stunt i wasn't surprised..at all. White americans feel it's an injustice when they are discriminated against, and it is. But when the shoe is on the other foot, some see it as a necessary evil.

Go figure

Originally posted by Nosred
reply to post by the owlbear

 

In the 19th century Republicans were left wing and the Democrats right. That's why the KKK was founded by democrats.

I have read all of these posts with great interest. This statement is very true. Blacks in America overwhelmingly voted republican until FDR began siphoning off much of that base and pretty much fully democrat when Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act which would not have passed without great "r" support who were much more in agreement with the law than were the "d"'s who had splintered over the issue. This fact was supported when a decade ago you could hear LBJ on the released WH tapes state with much glee: "I'll have every "n....." voting democrat for 200 years".

I have some very unabashed liberal yankee friends who are truly Civil War buffs. We used to vacation in the Outer Banks twice a year and we always stopped at major battlefields during our southernly trek. Antietam and Manassas were two of the stops. The entrenchments were still clearly evident and if you were lucky you could still occassionally find a spent round when foraging. Unlike my friends I was overwhelmingly saddened by these visits as I could feel the misery and death all around me.

Anyways these liberal and very learned yankee friends of mine would gladly debate all of the Union sympathizers here. They always believed that slavery only became a "true" issue of the war after Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 when he decided to use it to gin up sympathy. It was, in their opinion, foremost about secession and states' rights and "unfair" northern price control of southern goods, mostly cotton.

It is fruitless to argue what would have happened if the South would have won and the arguments only enflame the North-South debate that still exists today in much of the Southern states who never forgave the relentless carpetbagging of the North after the war, something that Lincoln (who was assassinated) and his suiccessor, Andrew Johnson (who was impeached) attempted valiantly but unsuccessfully to thwart. The stablishment "r"'s (what we conservatives despisingly call Country Club republicans today) were not going to allow the South to recover their dignity. They plundered and looted wherever they could. The "d"'s soon became the entrenched party in the South and remained so until the Dixiecrats broke free in the mid-20th century.

The KKK was definitely a southern invention but to suppose it to be wholely and only "reb" is naive and uninformed. Their were chapters everywhere in the North and blacks could not buy a home in many communities in my home state of New Jersey as recently as 30 years ago. From what I have seen of the racism of our past (last century) was that the only difference was that it was overt below the Mason-Dixon Line while the North proselytized equality to others while living in a segregated society.

Over the years I have come to prefer a man who states honestly how he feels over one who tells you how YOU should live and think without feeling the need to live it himself. I believe the Southerners and the minorities would concur with that opinion.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I vote for Hank Williams Jr for the New President of the Confederacy!

Check this out if you aren't completely sold yet.

If the South would've won we'd a had it made,
I'd prob'ly run for President of the Southern State.
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday,
If the South would a won we'd had a it made.

I'd make my Supreme Court down in Texas,
And we wouldn't have no killers gettin'off free.
If they were proven guilty, then they would swing quickly,
Instead of writin' books and smilin' on T.V.

We'd all learn Cajun cookin in Louisiana,
And I'd put that capitol back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track ‘cause, we'd take Miami back,
And throw all them pushers in the slammer.

If the South would've won we'd a had it made,
I'd prolly run for President of the Southern States.
The day young Skynyrd died we'd show our Southern Pride,
If the South would a won we'd had a it made.

I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee,
And all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills.
The national treasury would be in Tupelo, Mississippi
And I'd put Hank William's picture on one hundred dollar bills.

I'd have all the cars made in the Carolina's,
And I'd ban all the ones made in China.
I'd have every girl and child sent to Georgia to learn to smile,
And talk with that southern accent that drives me wild.

I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia
Cause they sure can make'em sound so fine.
I'm goin up on Wolverton mountain and see ole Clinton Powers,
And have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine.

Hey, if the South woulda won we'd had it made
I'd prolly run for President of the Southern States,
When Patsy Cline passed away that would be our national holiday,
If the South woulda won we'd a had it made.

If the South woulda won we'd a had it made.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by getreadyalready]

error double post

[edit on 8/7/10 by xstealth]

Originally posted by Snarf
reply to post by xstealth

 

They didn't want to be ran by a tyrannical government.

You are correct. They considered the government tyrannical because they were saying "NO MORE SLAVERY"

If the confederacy had won, the world would be much, much, worse off.

The building in Chicago where the bulls play, that is called "The house that Michael Jordan built"

...it would LITERALLY become the house that MJ built.

Along with several hundred of people with the same skin color as him.

you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Lincoln didn't care about slavery until it became his only option.

After JC's excellent quote regarding Lincoln's intent to "save the union"
how can anyone make with the slavery issue?

PS I'll take a swig of that JD if you are passin the jug around and I'll play you some Davey Crockett fiddle tunes on the guitar with a beer bottle slide...

Gentlemen to the fallen: may their bravery, honor and sacrifice be remembered so we don't dance that song again.




[edit on 8-7-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 8-7-2010 by Danbones]

Why is everyone seemingly looking for one reason and only one reason for the start of the Civil War? There were a multitude of reasons leading to the confedarate states seceding from the union. Tariffs, state's rights. tyrannical government, slavery, etc...

You can come up with one specific reason for such a complex issue. People make it about black and white but the facts are not black and white. There is a lot of gray too.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Saw Hank Jr. in Wise, VA many years ago. Rowdy show.
Judging by the crowd response to the liquor swigging, the disrobing, and the frequent trips to inhale something off the piano, I was sure this man could run for president. The music was great, but that good ol' boy outlaw behavior is what drove the fans wild.
Just a few short years later, the great state of Connecticut gave us one of her native sons, G.W. Bush.
I wonder if there's any connection?