Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?, page 2

reply to post by Maddogkull

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God exists! No doubt in my mind, heart or soul about that!
As far as going to Hell because you dont believe in him, why would he want you there? It would blow your mind too much and you may feel ashamed to be there amongst people who have always believed and didnt need proof, yet you ask for a sign. Doing good deeds is a great thing, but remember that God made it easier on us because of our stubborn hearts, he sent us Jesus. If you are willing to die for Jesus, you will get into Heaven.

Originally posted by alicepip

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

Originally posted by alicepip
reply to post by orionthehunter

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But doesn't that still contradict the notion that god is all knowing? If he really was he would know the 'possible outcome' that you would choose. If he doesn't know that, he isn't omniscient.

you will always have contradictions when you are describing god with human logic. there is just no way around it. just like the whole can he create a rock that he can't move, and so forth. perhaps there is some other way.....

That's the easy way out. If the bible is god's word why wouldn't he write it in a way that makes sense and is logical to humans, the ones he wants to worship him. The bible is filled with inconsistencies, and that is a major reason that many former Christians have become atheists or agnostics.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by alicepip]

actually thats not the easy way out. I made no reference to the bible. at all. in fact i replied to poster from a philosophical standpoint. perhaps you took the easy way out. why dont you respond to the OP about why god would allow the existence of people to go to hell?

reply to post by orionthehunter

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Did god see little kids getting drugged on heroin to change their perspective on life and that they were forced to kill people? Do they still go to heaven? We are born without morals. We are animals. If you are taught to kill from birth. You will kill.

Originally posted by alicepip

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

Originally posted by alicepip
reply to post by orionthehunter

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But doesn't that still contradict the notion that god is all knowing? If he really was he would know the 'possible outcome' that you would choose. If he doesn't know that, he isn't omniscient.

you will always have contradictions when you are describing god with human logic. there is just no way around it. just like the whole can he create a rock that he can't move, and so forth. perhaps there is some other way.....

That's the easy way out. If the bible is god's word why wouldn't he write it in a way that makes sense and is logical to humans, the ones he wants to worship him. The bible is filled with inconsistencies, and that is a major reason that many former Christians have become atheists or agnostics.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by alicepip]

Fundamentalists take the Bible literally, non-fundamentalist faiths do not, recognizing that the Bible is inspired (and probably directed) by God, but written by men. Men who put things into contexts that they understood, given their world perspective. Did God give Moses Ten Commandments? Yes. Did God personally write Exodus? No.

I've never met any Christian who had a strong faith that turned to atheism due to inconsistencies in the Bible, though I've met plenty (including myself) that moved away from a fundamentalist point of view for those reasons.

reply to post by rangersdad

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What about all the other messiahs, why just Jesus; why stop there? Why would god put a non believer in hell who is the nicest person ever, beside murderers and rapists? Common I am not even omni potent and I know that is just plain out stupid

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

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See, you believe a book written by man, and changed my empires. You do not know the original message. Eon changed to eternity. Wasn’t hell a fire pit behind Jerusalem or something? We do not know the original message. So to preach such ignorance like you actually know the truth of life is flat out stupid. I am not talking about you by the way, just the majority of people who think they know everything.

Spirituality is a three tiered thing -- faith, religion and theology. If you try to build your spirituality without all three, you will flail about. Faith without religion and theology is just making things up.

Christian faith is based on the Bible, predominantly the New Testament. One could, in fact, get along pretty well with merely the Gospel of John. Accept Christ's sacrifice for you, love God and treat everyone around you as well as you'd like to be treated.

If you don't believe in that basic premise, then you're not a Christian, and none of this applies to you. But God's plan, as spelled out by Christian faith, religion and theology is not a buffet plan that allows salvation by your own good works.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by rangersdad

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What about all the other messiahs, why just Jesus; why stop there? Why would god put a non believer in hell who is the nicest person ever, beside murderers and rapists? Common I am not even omni potent and I know that is just plain out stupid

There are no other messiah (a Hebrew term, and they're still waiting for theirs, by the way.) Jesus claimed to be God, not that he was a simple prophet.

Like I said before, sending Gandhi to hell sure seems unfair, and I hope that God has a way that we just don't understand to accommodate that (like purgatory) but it's not "plain out stupid." On the contrary, broadstroke acceptance (everyone gets in) or some arbitrary definition of good (if you steal less than $100 over your life, you're in) would be "plain out stupid", because it means that a) no one would have any notion of what God expected from him and b) Christ's sacrifice, part of God's plan, meant nothing.

reply to post by adjensen

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What are you talking about? You do not have to believe in religion to be spiritual..... The most spiritual people out there do not believe in religion. There are monks that are not even bound to Buddhism or any religion that are more spiritual then any priest in the Christian religion. That statement is just ignorant. After I realised a close friend I had knew who passed away; I asked a minister, this minister was much respected, throughout the Christian community, if my friend would go to heaven. You want to know his response? If he believes in the lord Jesus Christ he will be fine. This person was in the Peace Corps, (Canadian equivalent) VOS. He helped TONS of people. And you are telling me he is going to go to hell? I think in today’s day in age more people would like to go to hell. Beer, strippers, and tons of fun What does heaven got a bunch on men playing chess?

reply to post by Maddogkull

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Please name the other messiahs. ONLY Jesus said that HE is THE SON of God...Buddha never claimed to be a messiah, heck not even Joseph Smith for that matter.
As far as being a good person and getting into Heaven, I suppose its possible, but with Jesus on your side its a whole lot easier!

reply to post by adjensen

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Have you ever heard of St. Issa? Supposedly that could have been Jesus, in the 30 years that he just disappeared. He learned different traditions of the Hindu and Buddhist faith. If you study religion, and not just Christianity, you would see that Christianity used a lot of eastern traditions, which were around way before Jesus Christ. Jesus taught forgiveness. He hung out with hookers and thieves. The going to hell part, was changed by Constantine for a way to control the masses. If you truly believe the bible is the same as it was 2000 years ago that is a joke. It is like the game telephone. Through different emperors and popes throughout the ages who changed the bible to their liking. The time it hit us, the message has been change.

reply to post by halfoldman

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So , the Great Ponzi Bill , belongs to a Baptist church eh ?


I bet they don't know that he's going to be one of those

"unfortunate" satistics.

unrepentant rebels , have NEVER fooled God.

I bet he sweats and shakes , if forced to read a Bible !

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

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What are you talking about? You do not have to believe in religion to be spiritual.. nip> This person was in the Peace Corps, (Canadian equivalent) VOS. He helped TONS of people. And you are telling me he is going to go to hell? I think in today’s day in age more people would like to go to hell. Beer, strippers, and tons of fun What does heaven got a bunch on men playing chess?

Your perspective demonstrates why one can't have faith without religion. You want to believe in heaven, so that's okay. You doesn't want to believe that there are requirements for entrance to heaven, so you dismiss that. Your faith now encompasses those two things, but you're contrary to what Christians believe, so you have some sort of pseudo-religion that doesn't correspond to anything, and you lack any theological basis, other than feeling uncomfortable with it, for your belief. At that point, you can add "heaven is only for vegetarians," "only dogs go to heaven" or pretty much anything you like to your faith, because, like I said, without religion or theology, you're just making stuff up.

As for your friend, I have no idea if he is in heaven or not, that's between him and God. My wife passed away three months ago, and, while I don't know for a fact that she is in heaven, I have faith that she is.

reply to post by rangersdad

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Saoshyant, Maha Avatara, Li Hong, The Buddhist Maitreya, The Muslim Mahdi. Messiahs are prevalent throughout any religion.

reply to post by adjensen

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What are you talking about; you are basing my statement on your beliefs. I KNOW SPIRITUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT BOUND BY RELIGION. How more clearly can I get? Requirements to get into heaven? THE BIBLE WAS WIRTTEN BY MAN. Jesus was a man. 2000 years ago, people were a lot different. It is funny you think you hold the truth. How you think you know how to get into a place you have never seen. Tell me, do you think we honestly know everything there is to know about how to get into heaven? Have you never heard of cause and effect? Let me make this clear. You might think you know the truth, but you are more blind then the rest of us. Have you ever heard of NDE, they talk about a very different heaven then you? But let me guess NDEs are the devils work, because nothing that fits into the Christian world views must not be correct?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

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See, you believe a book written by man, and changed my empires. You do not know the original message. Eon changed to eternity. Wasn’t hell a fire pit behind Jerusalem or something? We do not know the original message. So to preach such ignorance like you actually know the truth of life is flat out stupid. I am not talking about you by the way, just the majority of people who think they know everything.

Spirituality is a three tiered thing -- faith, religion and theology. If you try to build your spirituality without all three, you will flail about. Faith without religion and theology is just making things up.

Christian faith is based on the Bible, predominantly the New Testament. One could, in fact, get along pretty well with merely the Gospel of John. Accept Christ's sacrifice for you, love God and treat everyone around you as well as you'd like to be treated.

If you don't believe in that basic premise, then you're not a Christian, and none of this applies to you. But God's plan, as spelled out by Christian faith, religion and theology is not a buffet plan that allows salvation by your own good works.

I am very spiritual and I do not have faith, religion or theology. I dont mean to insult you, but I am not sure you know what real spirituality actually is, it sounds to me you see spiritually as the belief system itself.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

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I KNOW SPIRITUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT BOUND BY RELIGION.

What is their faith based on? What is the point of their spirituality? Understand, please, that "religion" refers to the traditions, shared beliefs and community that one belongs to, it doesn't mean a specific church. Theology is the intellectual investigation and theorizing about our beliefs. If you have neither of these, your faith has no basis. You can claim it does, or say that you are spiritual because you sit out in the woods and listen to a babbling brook, but it's not the same thing.

The core of Christianity, by the way, is that Christ was more than "a man". Again, if you don't believe that, that's fine, but if Christ was NOT God, as he claimed to be, there is no point to Christianity at all.

But let me guess NDEs are the devils work, because nothing that fits into the Christian world views must not be correct?

On the contrary, I believe they are real experiences. In fact, I consider them to be pretty good proof of my beliefs, particularly if one accepts the concept of purgatory.

Good question. It really depends on your belief system and open mindedness to things outside it whether you will get a satisfactory answer.

In my opinion hell is more a temporary state of mind in between lives when you review your most current life and what you did. No one will be in hell forever. Some may be longer then others if they take longer to learn the lessons of the physical plane.

The very black and white standard modern traditional Christian belief of heaven and hell and life and death in general is is very limited in light. The fact that you are asking questions is a good sign. Don't ever let anyone stifle your questioning things that do not make sense, and be willing to discard them eventually if they cannot be reconciled. be careful though not to discard things to quickly as often further light and knowledge will suddenly bring them into focus. Put them on the shlf for a while and see what turns up.

There is light in the Bible and other scriptures and esoteric writings however it depends on your eternal evolutionary level as to how much of it you can discern. For instance reincarnation is taught in the bible but most modern Christians will bristle at such an Idea.

Here is a good article on it: www.freeread.com...

We go through many lives to learn and progress through eternity to higher and higher levels of existence until we reach relative perfection. Some will take much longer then others and a very few will refuse to progress and the matter and light gathered together at that point in the cosmos to make them unique and who they are will if they refuse to progress eventually be dispersed back onto the cosmic mix so to speak and redistributed to other new points of light who will become beings and souls. These are the few the bible calls sons of perdition.

All of us have had several lives where we were not good people and this often accounts for the men or women you see who seemingly have rough lives but never did anything to deserve it. Well they did in a previous life and they are paying off that karma and learning why they should never choose that path again in future lives, but look to uplift humanity and work toward peace and brotherhood of all men and women.

Karma is also taught in the bible. "Cast your bread upon the waters and it will come back to you a hundred fold" Many don't realise this means good or bad. The universe has a way of returning everything you send out back to you good or bad. You can even see this working in your current life.

Here is an another article that will give you an idea how of this works:www.freeread.com...

Earth can be classified as hell also it has no light of its own and operates only on borrowed light from the sun and it's inhabitants and the scriptures teach Satan is the god of this world

But it is a good example of free will, earth is what we make of it. For some it seems like heaven and for others it seems like hell depending on thier circumstances. Here is a good parable on heaven and hell: www.freeread.com...

We are actually the ones making the decisions as to what circumstances we will be born into based on what areas we need experience and learning in. God does not send anyone to hell. We choose everything we go through and eventually in the end the last weary traveler will make it home!

[edit on 4-7-2010 by hawkiye]

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