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Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

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posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
On the contrary most of the prophets went against the leaders of established religion and were outcast and persecuted and killed.


One key difference, even setting aside what Christ said, is that the other prophets were persecuted for what they said about others, while Christ was persecuted for what he said about himself. But the bottom line is that, unlike John the Baptist, who was quick to point out that he was not the Christ, Jesus flat out said that he was. If you want to degrade him to be a mere prophet, that's your business, but I personally see no benefit in it.




posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by hawkiye
On the contrary most of the prophets went against the leaders of established religion and were outcast and persecuted and killed.


One key difference, even setting aside what Christ said, is that the other prophets were persecuted for what they said about others, while Christ was persecuted for what he said about himself. But the bottom line is that, unlike John the Baptist, who was quick to point out that he was not the Christ, Jesus flat out said that he was. If you want to degrade him to be a mere prophet, that's your business, but I personally see no benefit in it.


EVERYONE is persacuted everyday for what they believe, hence the changes in belifes, CHRIST IS ANOITED ONE, MEANING CHRIST IS IN US ALL EVEN THEM AND YOU, You are smart, only if you believe in yourself,

CHRIST LOVES ME AND YOU EQUALLY,



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:26 PM
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Very deluded topic.
You are "god". Every single atom you see around you is an illusion the one conscious soul of the universe has decided to manifest. The evolution of the self is the evolution of "god". If you decide to do "evil" things you will eventually pay the price during your part of evolution. There's no such thing as Hell, can't stand when people talk about these topics. Like open your mind and stop listening to things preachers tell you. All they want is your money and your souls energy. Wake up to the " universal oneness" within eveything, and never stop searching for the truth.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by Qonscious
 


We do not know if there is a heaven or a hell.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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Their is a Heaven Outside of your Hell, seen?

CHRIST LIVES



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by ReHaBzWuRdZ
 


What do you mean by christ lives?



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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Not a good question. A better series of question would go like this:

Why create beings who never asked to be created and subject them to a series of events that they have little control over? Furthermore, in those series of event, the creations may or may not be introduced to the idea of the creator and can live its entire life without knowing, why send that creature to hell? Why create something, that turns out to be less than perfect, and send it to hell?
The issue of free will is thrown out, but in all actuality how much free will do you have when you can not choose where you were born, how you look, the technology available to you when you are born, the society you will live in for the rest of your life, who lives on the planet at the same time as you do, what energy sources are available to utilize....and so forth and so on.

You have limited choice in a limited pool of items to choose from. That's no justification for "LOLuBADuGOTOHELL"



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
 


Lets put a Human perspective on God.

There is a man, and he is the King of the World.

Except he only actually really rules about 35% of the World.

Of his subjects he demands absolute obedience. If you go against his "will" you will be smited, and put into a dungeon where you will be tortured by one of his agents for the rest of your days.

He will tell you he loves you and all living things, he will then demand a sacrifice of gold, that you set aside an entire day for his devotion and worship at his feet or else.. off to those dungeons. And of those outside the 35% that he controls, anyone who rejects his rule, into that dungeon for torture.

And you cannot question his power, for he is ineffable and to do so is to go against his will and would mean the torture chamber for you.

Would you follow such a tyrant? For thats what he'd be.. a tyrant to be disposed and executed.. not followed and showed reverence and respect..

There is a school of thought that believes God of the 3 books and his Christ were actually "Satan" .. an Evil entity, not a benevolent God..




posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:03 PM
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Im amazed at all the mis information in this thread. Of course, if you do not believe in the Bible then that statement is pointless.

When I have time I'll back all of this up with the Bible:




Hell is a literal and real place.

Hell is an place of eternal torment where 'the fire is not quenched' and the 'worm dieth not'.

Hell was created for the Devil and his angels. (Demons, the ancient ones condemned already and among us now.) So, Hell was not intended for us but nonetheless, if you reject Jesus that is exactly where you will wind up at after your last heart beat and breath here on earth.

The Devil is NOT the king of hell. Satan will be bound and tortured along with everyone else that winds up there.

The body you live in now is your 'safety zone' or 'tent' as the Bible calls it and when you leave it (here) you will no longer have a choice between Heaven and Hell. The prophet Job talks about his fear of being 'escorted away from his tent by the "king of terrors"'

We will all be given 'resurrection bodies' in which we will dwell forever after this life, whether it be in one place or the other. (When Jesus returned after the Crucifixion He was in His glorified body as a good example). This glorified body can not be destroyed, so keep that in mind.


There is only ONE way to escape eternal damnation after this life and that is through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift of God and His Grace and is received through faith and faith alone in Jesus and His atoning, agonizing death on the Cross at Calvary.

Now, I speak from personal experience. What is that experience? I had a near death experience back in 2007 and was presented with a vision of Hell that I still have a hard time articulating to this day.


Let me just say this... Hell is the ultimate loss, that is why Salvation is called the greatest Miracle. You can NOT get your head around hell--TRUST ME. Nothing you have experienced here can compare and you don't know what fear is until you have tasted Hell.

My advice to everyone here? Just quietly and patiently read the Bible for yourselves and seek the truth in prayer. God will reveal Himself to you if you do this diligently. The Bible is an amazing book whether you agree with it or believe in it...or not. If you never completely read it, how will you ever know?




My short answer to the OP's question: God allows the existence of people who go to hell because they serve His purpose. I will expound on this later when I have time but this is one of the most frightening aspects of God. Whether you are a righteous vessel or a vessel 'created for dishonor' God is going to use you to fulfill His purposes. Of course, the bad vessels, or 'tares' will be thrown into the fire when it's all said and done with. Right now God is allowing the tares to grow up with the wheat. You can either let the tares sharpen you or lead you to hell. It's your choice.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by ViewFromTheStars]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
 


it doesn't make sense because it's baloney made up by human beings making up religions.

if it doesn't make sense to you, it evidently is not actually of a "higher power."

don't believe everything you see and hear.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by ViewFromTheStars
 


I am calling you a liar about your NDE.
EVERY and I mean EVERY NDE never talks of Satan as a real deity(if yours is special, present it to a true NDE (MD) researcher, and have your account published, including the hospital records of you actually dying). You are the one spreading false information. Eternal domination...please, your god is a tyrant. Like I said, pain is subjective. What about the Buddhist monk who did not believe in god that burned himself in Vietnam. He would in your view burn in hell for eternity. But he would not be in pain, because you can attune your mind not to feel pain. Your argument of hell being painful is flawed and outdated.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:23 PM
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God is the devil!

If one believes that the devil has independent power along with God then that person is saying that the devil is a God with God.

Who created these “bad vessels” some other kind of God?

Of course simplistic ideas would say “the devil created those bad vessels.

Well then who created the devil? The devil himself or God?

If that be the case [ saying the devil created himself] then this devil is a God along with God, you just label this devil as “God is going to use you to fulfill His purposes”

If so then you are what are known as a dualist


[edit on 4-7-2010 by inforeal]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by TheOneElectric
Not a good question. A better series of question would go like this:

Why create beings who never asked to be created and subject them to a series of events that they have little control over?

Maybe we did have a choice. Maybe we must agree to be part of this world before we're sent here.
Who knows?



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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The only hell that seems to exist is the one when people are full of fear of anything and everything.
One creates their reality through their own thoughts of mind. Whether it be Heaven or hell. One chooses either of these two realities in every moment in time and space.
"Be the change you want to see in the world- Gandhi"



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
As for those who do not believe in Christ, I'm not saying it's fair, and one would certainly hope that there are ways for God to grant grace for deserving people. But from a theological standpoint, no Christ, no covenant, no salvation.


I was going to stay out of this and lurk but....

From a theological standpoint.....? Whose theology? The Muslims and Jews would not see it that way. Their theology has no Christ. Are you saying that your theology is more valid than theirs? On what basis and authority do you undertake to pontificate on that?

Are you saying that a Buddhist, who has no God in your terms, is going to your God's Hell? Illogical Mr Spock.

It is more important that someone lives their life with care and concern for others and their environment than adhering to any religion - all of which have this quaint ability to say that only they are right.

Let me tell you a story.

A man died and went to the pearly gate where he met Peter.

"Come in " says Peter, "Let me show you round". They went round Paradise together Peter said, "Here are the Hindus and over there are the Buddhists. In the distance over there are the various lesser denominations of the Christian faiths and a few of the odd ball ones as well."

The man said, "You mean everyone comes here?"

"Oh yes", said Peter, "We even have a place over there for the atheists and agnostics."

In three separate areas there were huge walls. The man said, "What are those walls?"

"Ah", said Peter, "Behind that wall are the Roman Catholics, and behind that one are the Jews, and that one holds the Muslims"

He paused.

"Each of them thinks they are the only ones here."



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by adjensen
As for those who do not believe in Christ, I'm not saying it's fair, and one would certainly hope that there are ways for God to grant grace for deserving people. But from a theological standpoint, no Christ, no covenant, no salvation.


I was going to stay out of this and lurk but....

From a theological standpoint.....? Whose theology? The Muslims and Jews would not see it that way. Their theology has no Christ. Are you saying that your theology is more valid than theirs? On what basis and authority do you undertake to pontificate on that?


Um... Christian theology? Do you believe that all religions share the same theology? That my belief is limited by the fact that Muslims or Jews don't believe in Christ? How does that make any sense?

The Christian faith says that salvation comes from Christ. Ergo, no Christ, by this theology, no covenant and no salvation. Period. If everyone goes to heaven, because of their own good deeds, outside of the intervention of Christ, then there is no Christianity, and no Saint Peter at the gates of anything, per your joke.

You can say that you don't agree, or don't believe, but don't imply that just because you don't like something, it invalidates 2,000 years of religious thought, discussion and tradition. Or expect a Christian to defend their faith by utilizing Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish theology.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by Maddogkull
 


I would have to disagree with you about what you have read about NDE's apparently all being positive, if I'm getting what you're saying. There definitely have been "dark" accounts reported for a long time, and further, there is a component of these experiences that is very specific, and in that particular subset of cases, from what I have read, the vast majority of those NDE's are "negative". Maybe this particular person on ATS is fibbing, as you suspect, but they would not be alone.

The specific case of this "negative" subset is "suicide". There are in fact plenty of "survivors" of suicide attempts, and apparently too often, they "come back" with a sobering story to tell.

The most famous subset, of this subset, involved "jumpers" (probably due to their survival rate). These were people who jumped off of bridges, into waters far below. One of the consistent themes in their testimony is that they have an almost instantaneous "perspective shift", the moment they jump, usually seeing how "small" their imagined problems were, in comparison to the drastic "solution" they chose.

Another famous subset involves children. Here it seems that one of the more typical experiences involves animals, of all things! The NDE children often see animals, who presumably may have died, etc. But lots of interpretation there of course.

It seems to be a big topic, but you will certainly find that the interpretation of all this diverse data usually falls along philosophical / religious lines (predictably). For the New Agers, it's pretty simple, we're all headed to the light, onward and upward!

For the Christian, I think there was a period of cognitive dissonance that emerged, since most of the early, popular accounts of NDE's were seemingly so positive. As it turned out, much of what became popular, was probably more based on good book selling strategies, as well as the ever-present confirmation-bias that skewed the researcher's interpretations.

I'm not a Christian anymore, so I certainly do not believe in "hell", but I can see where the typical Christian is coming from in regards to these NDE's. There are "negs" out there, and if you already believe in the devil, and hell, it's not hard to see how they will grab onto them, and say, "Ah-Ha!"

Anyway, I posted a rather lengthy diatribe earlier on my observations on why few people really believe in Hell (a non-theological approach to the issue), but I guess discussing NDE's is just as legitimate, and you guys have a whole lot of back-and-forth. Hope it helps people!

JR



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
Um... Christian theology? Do you believe that all religions share the same theology?


No and thus that was the point. Under which authority do you presume to state that those who are not Christians will not go to heaven? This is your belief and not a statement of fact.


The Christian faith says that salvation comes from Christ. Ergo, no Christ, by this theology, no covenant and no salvation. Period.


Only by your terms and beliefs. The fact that you believe that, does not make it a truth, merely a belief. Religion has to be belief based, no matter which religion it is, because it cannot be proven as fact. Blessed is he that has not seen yet still believes.

The whole point of my 'joke' was to illustrate that what you believe is not the only answer and is not what another believes.


You can say that you don't agree, or don't believe, but don't imply that just because you don't like something, it invalidates 2,000 years of religious thought, discussion and tradition.


Did I say that I did not like something? I asked you to provide the authority for your statement, which of course you cannot, because it is a belief and not an authority.


Or expect a Christian to defend their faith by utilizing Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish theology.


It is quite apparent then that you have absolutely no concept of the roots of Christianity and Islam both of which are founded upon Judaism which itself goes back further than 2000 years. It is actually impossible for you to defend Christianity WITHOUT using the theology of Judaism since it is the foundation upon which your religion is built. I would agree that you could not use Buddhism, but Islam - yes since if you read the Noble Qu'ran you will find many references to the common roots of your religions. I assume that you have read the Torah and the Qu'ran?

I have not said you are wrong in your belief. As far as I am concerned all people are free to believe what they choose as far as religion goes and no one religion has the authority to deny another. My father was a Church Of England priest so religion and all the arguments for and against are engrained upon my education, and my father made sure that I did learn about other religions.

[edit on 4/7/2010 by PuterMan]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by cLOUDDEAD
 


Well, on some level, I believe we did. However, I do not believe in the JudeoChristian God. I believe we are kind of all pieces of God here to experience and grow. Our individual growth allows the composite to grow.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by JR MacBeth
 


No, There are hellish NDE. But not of the religious nature. Whenever a NDE actually went to hell in an NDE, and ask for forgiveness they were forgiven. In the christin religion there are no second chanes. This is what I think is dumb.



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