All life may be derived from quantum effects

reply to post by unityemissions


Yes, I must admit it's foolish thinking.

but ultimately unprovable, just like if I said everything were expanding at the speed of light in perfect ratio with everything else, of course it's not but is it, we cannot tell.

What i am getting at is that mans apparatus is imperfect to study the full intricacies of it's environment, so how can total truths be known, if the full set of information is not. The minds logics keep improving, but some theories say so is the complexity of the universe.


[edit on 2-7-2010 by depth om]

reply to post by sirnex


You have your sciences arranged neatly but how can you say that they are not all deeply interrelated?

I guess you did not exactly SAY that but, you exude an air of pompous passive aggressiveness with your answers and subtle jest, even if I am having lunatic flights of fancy.

You say the universe is cooler than we are imagining yet you fail to describe it. You allow formula to speak for you, so you cannot relate to others, the profane?





[edit on 2-7-2010 by depth om]

reply to post by loner007

YOU THICK (no you really are!!!)

You are thick would be more proper. If your going to try and insult, at least don't insult yourself in the process.

have credibility if they explain

i.e. Does not *currently* explain or give adequate full explanation, hence no inherent credibility. You need to read the terminology rather than read what you want.

Originally posted by sirnex

This is just another sad attempt to sensationalize the science of quantum mechanics. Take tgidkp reply as an example. Idealists will always try to relegate consciousness as being something that it's not.

What exactly is consciousness, is it wholly derived from organic geometric structure? Is it received and discarded apart from the body?

reply to post by depth om


Interesting question. Allow me to bring up a point in response. People often say the mind is separate from the brain. They get a kick out of this type of thinking. Okay, well . . if the mind is separate from the brain, how is it that a person who has organic brain damage may change personalities to such a great extent, that their loved ones no longer recognize them? I'm not talking mind collapsing organic tissue, I'm talking a physical concussion causing brain damage.

reply to post by depth om

What exactly is consciousness

Consciousness is just another term for self aware, so honestly the proper question is, why are we self aware rather than unaware?

All life is aware of it's own existence which is why all life fights in one way or another to survive. If we were simply unaware or unconscious of our existence, we wouldn't fight for survival. We would be mindless zombies bumping around by chance either accidentally finding food or accidentally finding a mate or accidentally dying.

What would happen to the idea that consciousness is not a biological necessity, but is instead something the brain "receives" if we successfully create an artificial intelligence that is self aware? Do we now pretend that somehow the computer is receiving consciousness from some unobserved realm of existence, or do we then finally concede to reality?

Originally posted by depth om
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Yes, I must admit it's foolish thinking.

but ultimately unprovable, just like if I said everything were expanding at the speed of light in perfect ratio with everything else, of course it's not but is it, we cannot tell.

What i am getting at is that mans apparatus is imperfect to study the full intricacies of it's environment, so how can total truths be known, if the full set of information is not. The minds logics keep improving, but some theories say so is the complexity of the universe.


[edit on 2-7-2010 by depth om]

Hey I actually agree with your thoughts here. I simply observe the way my beliefs shape my perspective of reality. I've noted that thinking in magical terms does me, and those around me, much more harm than good. Knowing this, I choose to stick to a basic philosophy of, "I know that I know not."

reply to post by sirnex


To me it would reveal that scaled geometries, generate any and all properties of an object or system, so the property of self awareness will inevitably arise if the proper shapes are in their correct places so to speak, which would pose for many people uncomfortable questions and disturbing revelation.

Also, in thinking about things, I realize that you can choose to just keep going when analyzing a thing, even in trying to describe the notion of consciousness, you can use language in a myriad of ways and come up with totally different interpretations, that "work" but are ultimately merely mental exercise.

I could say that our self awareness and survival behavior is ultimately generated by necessity, just as particles "obey" "laws", we do not because we choose to do, but because we must.

an analogy, our self awareness could merely be nothing more than the effect a magnet has on an iron nail, when you bring the magnet close to the nail on the table, it behaves in a certain way, it stands up, and it lays down based solely upon the actions of a larger force.

reply to post by unityemissions


Gee, and to think all it took was simple google search?

discovermagazine.com...

deanradin.blogspot.com...

science.box.sk...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.ks.uiuc.edu...

www.hplusmagazine.com...

www.wired.com...

One of the most significant quantum observations in the life sciences comes from Fleming and his collaborators. Their study of photosynthesis in green sulfur bacteria, published in 2007 in Nature [subscription required], tracked the detailed chemical steps that allow plants to harness sunlight and use it to convert simple raw materials into the oxygen we breathe and the carbohydrates we eat

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by VonDoomen

 

you are wrong, dear sir. Our universe is a highly inter-connected system. Everything effects everything else. the world is built upon, level by level. Quantum>subatomic>atomic>nuclear>molecular>chemical> ect. so to say the quantum level would have no effect on the biological level is rather ludicrous and ignorant at best.

The naivety of that statement just amazes me.

again your ignorance knows no bounds. How do you NOT comprehend that our reality is made of different levels. And each levels build upon the previous one. A change in the laws of any lower level would obviously more than likely have an effect on the levels above it, the one that are built upon the previous foundations.

Look at my post right above this to see examples of QUANTUM BIOLOGY!
Thanks for playing, sorry you didnt win anything!

and yes, i admitted Im not a quantum physicist. And now I think its time you admit it too!

And this is for the people who try and drag mysticism and religion into this-

The reason people grab onto these ideas isnt necessarily mysticle in nature, or wanting superpower, or to "create their own reality".
for me, its a more futuristic approach. I have a belief that anything we can imagine, is possible with the right technology. I believe we have still just started our journey on understanding this vast system. So I "grab" onto these ideas not because I believe it is true and possible now, but because I believe it will be possible someday. Thats is why i keep an open mind with these subjects, for NO ONE understands reality. the truth is in no ones hand. So keep searching and moving forward! No harm no foul

reply to post by VonDoomen


It's sad that you on one had state that nobody really knows what's going on, then on the other send me to a bunch of junk sites that claim to know what's going on and make a lot of bunk conclusions based on incomplete data.

Originally posted by unityemissions
I don't really know what to think of these kinds of things. I mean, what does this really mean anyways? How will our lives be any different? I understand that the world of the very small operates entirely different than our macro model, but so what?

well, you're speaking the truth, no doubt!
it's not going to change anything fundamentally, the way i see it. the world operates the way it does, whether or not we understand it, study it, and/or quantify it.

although, personally, i don't think there is that much difference between micro- and macro-cosmic operations, just based on the fact that atoms seem to be arranged much like solar systems! the rest follows logically.

perhaps.

I have no problem accepting the notion of entanglement. In fact, I've intuitively known of such a principal before even hearing it.

everything i understand about physics is intuitive. when i first heard of entanglement, and read about it, i knew, somehow, in my gut that it had to with the arrangement or maybe i should say circumstances of material existence. something like that.

it's kind of embarrassing because i don't know the proper terms to explain what i mean because, like i said, my understanding is an intuitive one.

i bet a lot more people understand this stuff but are maybe like me and just don't know how to frame it into logical conversation so they don't say anything.

to me, it makes sense that if our created realm is ordered by the principles of quantum physics, then deep inside all created things there is some sort of affinity to it's workings and understanding.

Originally posted by sirnex
Idealists will always try to relegate consciousness as being something that it's not.

but how do YOU know what consciousness is NOT when no one yet even knows what it IS?

a realist says..."we don't know but we're trying to find out."

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by VonDoomen

 

It's sad that you on one had state that nobody really knows what's going on, then on the other send me to a bunch of junk sites that claim to know what's going on and make a lot of bunk conclusions based on incomplete data.

sorry let me clarify, what i said is, "No one understands reality", Reality being the whole system from top to bottom. As a species, we seem to know bit and pieces (1+1=2?), and some of that knowledge is always being updated. But as far as I, or anyone else is concerned, no one knows the whole story. so yes, we can draw valid conclusions on some systems, but not the whole. You all better now?

Ps, my statement still stands about the effect of the quantum level on biology!

www.google.com "its a good resource"

[edit on 7/2/2010 by VonDoomen]

reply to post by depth om

To me it would reveal that scaled geometries, generate any and all properties of an object or system, so the property of self awareness will inevitably arise if the proper shapes are in their correct places so to speak, which would pose for many people uncomfortable questions and disturbing revelation.

What? Translate that into English please?

Also, in thinking about things, I realize that you can choose to just keep going when analyzing a thing, even in trying to describe the notion of consciousness, you can use language in a myriad of ways and come up with totally different interpretations, that "work" but are ultimately merely mental exercise.

Explain the role of language in an unaware species.

Language and other forms of communication convey information about food sources, potential mates, potential threats etc. What use would communication be for an unaware species? In order to interpret any meaning from communication, you would have to be aware of it's purpose and what the information means to you.

I could say that our self awareness and survival behavior is ultimately generated by necessity, just as particles "obey" "laws", we do not because we choose to do, but because we must.

I'm not following you. Can you explain your point in a more clear and concise manner?

an analogy, our self awareness could merely be nothing more than the effect a magnet has on an iron nail, when you bring the magnet close to the nail on the table, it behaves in a certain way, it stands up, and it lays down based solely upon the actions of a larger force.

I feel that is a pretty poor analogy. I see no reason to suspect that self awareness is akin to a physical force, such as magnetism.

reply to post by queenannie38

but how do YOU know what consciousness is NOT when no one yet even knows what it IS?

Many people get confused and turned around thinking that consciousness is something that exists of it's own accord. Consciousness is just another way to say self aware.

What we should be asking is why are we self aware rather than unaware. Why do we have intelligence rather than mindlessly mucking about? Why do we make use of language to describe the world around us and to convey abstract ideas?

One mustn't get caught up in thinking of reality in simplistic terms.

reply to post by VonDoomen

www.google.com "its a good resource"

Correction: Google is a great tool that can lead you to either great resources that properly explain science or can lead you to sensationalized MEDIA outlets that use specific language and imagery to captivate it's targeted audiences.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by depth om

 

To me it would reveal that scaled geometries, generate any and all properties of an object or system, so the property of self awareness will inevitably arise if the proper shapes are in their correct places so to speak, which would pose for many people uncomfortable questions and disturbing revelation.

"What? Translate that into English please?"

It is in english, certain geometries produce their own intrinsic effects, Our brain operates the way it does because of it's structure. I was saying that people can become upset if they were to find out that the qualities of being human arise purely from the specific combinations and couplings of geometries.

Also, in thinking about things, I realize that you can choose to just keep going when analyzing a thing, even in trying to describe the notion of consciousness, you can use language in a myriad of ways and come up with totally different interpretations, that "work" but are ultimately merely mental exercise.

"Explain the role of language in an unaware species.

Language and other forms of communication convey information about food sources, potential mates, potential threats etc. What use would communication be for an unaware species? In order to interpret any meaning from communication, you would have to be aware of it's purpose and what the information means to you."

well I could easily say that it;s no different from the signals other animals and even plants produce, voice output is derived from chemical interaction in the mind, which I argued earlier was imposed by physical precepts, no will involved. It's no different from cellular communication.

I could say that our self awareness and survival behavior is ultimately generated by necessity, just as particles "obey" "laws", we do not because we choose to do, but because we must.

"I'm not following you. Can you explain your point in a more clear and concise manner?"

We act only because something acts upon us, I was saying that any action we make is made in response to another we never act for ourselves, because we are constantly affected by others. We hunted because the patterns of chemicals in our heads commanded us to, we designed things to sustain ourselves, we studied to increase our performance, to increase our power, in simpler terms to grow. To sustain and increase the fungus that is humanity. Do the protein cells in our bodies understand the work they're doing? I believe their situation is similar.

an analogy, our self awareness could merely be nothing more than the effect a magnet has on an iron nail, when you bring the magnet close to the nail on the table, it behaves in a certain way, it stands up, and it lays down based solely upon the actions of a larger force.

"I feel that is a pretty poor analogy. I see no reason to suspect that self awareness is akin to a physical force, such as magnetism."

haha that's good because I wasn't attempting to correlate magnetism with consciousness, I was using the imagery to say all of our actions are mandated by other forces.

[edit on 2-7-2010 by depth om]

reply to post by depth om

It is in english, certain geometries produce their own intrinsic effects, Our brain operates the way it does because of it's structure. I was saying that people can become upset if they were to find out that the qualities of being human arise purely from the specific combinations and couplings of geometries.

I'm still not following you. Please clarify and give a full proper explanation of your point.

well I could easily say that it;s no different from the signals other animals and even plants produce, voice output is derived from chemical interaction in the mind, which I argued earlier was imposed by physical precepts, no will involved. It's no different from cellular communication.

And thus,we are simply unaware and mindless, only we think we are aware and with mind because of action/reaction?

We act only because something acts upon us, I was saying that any action we make is made in response to another we never act for ourselves, because we are constantly affected by others. We hunted because the patterns of chemicals in our heads commanded us to, we designed things to sustain ourselves, we studied to increase our performance, to increase our power, in simpler terms to grow. To sustain and increase the fungus that is humanity. Do the protein cells in our bodies understand the work they're doing? I believe their situation is similar.

I agree, the universe is deterministic and devoid of any true concept of free will.

haha that's good because I wasn't attempting to correlate magnetism with consciousness, I was using the imagery to say all of our actions are mandated by other forces.

What other forces?