Conspiracy: The Rapture Doctrine

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.-1Cor15.44

The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ-Gal3.16

will hear the voice of the Son of God-John5.25 (I heard it)

reply to post by No King but Jesus

It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth....

Nazareth did not exist at the supposed time of Jesus, and yet you say that. Curious.....

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus...

Highly doubtful, since "Jesus" is an English name and word, not Aramaic.

Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.-John19.19

Really, were you there, friend? I believe the sign said IRNI, didn't it? How did they know the name of Nazareth when it was not yet built?

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.-2Cor3.17

Not how I see it, it actually means slavery, doesn't it?

Friend, I have read the Bible several times, and know what it is all based on too. You can have your version of Heaven, I choose the place I was shown by an ET, to you a demon, I suppose, but it was a lot nicer than the place you described.

Eye Witness Reports?

Christianity's Fabrication Factory

There are actually some 200 gospels, epistles and other books concerning the life of Jesus Christ. Writing such material was a popular literary form, particularly in the 2nd century. The pious fantasies competed with Greek romantic fiction. Political considerations in the late 2nd century led to the selection of just four approved gospels and the rejection of others. After three centuries of wrangling 23 other books were accepted by the Church as divinely inspired. The rest were declared 'pious frauds'. In truth, the whole lot belongs to a genre of literary FICTION.

Would the Christians lie? They said it themselves – lying for God! And non-Christian testimony? – from the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes! Would the early believers have died for a lie? Consider the evidence for that supposed "persecution" – Holy Mother Church invented heroic origins!

jesusneverexisted.com...

I have seen the truth of Christianity quite some time ago, when I had a few questions for a minister who was billed as a "man of God." He could not answer my questions, and even told me that to question God's word, or to seek knowledge is a mortal sin. Well, I am a mortal sinner then, for my life has been spent researching everything that comes to my mind, and reading everything that came into my hands. No matter how many bible quotes you post, you will not convince me of the myth, or get me to join the cult. My own mother disowned me for not being a Christian, and she is burning in her own hell right now.
What will you do when the Old Gods, the Ancient Ones come back, and told by the Dresden Codex? What happens when the one you call Jesus comes and decides to get even for the many crimes of Christianity, all done in his name? Just asking, and please, your OWN THOUGHTS please! Endless Bible quotes make you look un-educated.

One final thought. Why do Christians always thank Jesus, a made up deity, for everything, and never once think to thank their Mother Earth, the one that provides for them everything? And why at the end of each prayer do you all hail Amun Re, the Egyptian Sun God? Amen. and it is Sun of God, not Son of God. Read up on your Bible history and origins, you will be surprised.

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by Village Idiot

 

fitting name -the scriptures say it best are'nt they in plain English? do you understand English? you can read it right?

"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."-Luke16.13

Fitting name? thank you for noticing.

Yes I can read.... pity the poor people that can't though..... they're probably doomed, or is there a special clause for them?

Your quote makes no sense to me, hate one and love the other? I'm capable of both, some are capable of neither.
Always the extremities of the opposites "you either worship God or you worship the Devil" Life isn't like that, we were created as Simple beings with a common instinct to survive and excist, not to bombard ourselfs with mythical Laws of servitude and illusions of grandeur.

Well, time will tell who's right..... I'm not about to take out any Fire Insurance by worshiping an unknown character who's stories sprung to life well after his passing.
The good I do, for no other reason than because I want to, will have to be good enough.

reply to post by autowrench


They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.-2Tim3

again-
just remember to tell this guy He's not real when you meet him, the one whose AUDIBLE voice I heard as if sitting beside me on the left one night as soon as I had begun to open the cover of a small green Gideon NT (that a chick from the Plains left on the bar a few days earlier) that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-AWESTRUCK I stood to my feet (not being raised "churched" or knowing the scriptures) and said yes Lord and read this years later-

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils-1Tim4.1

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!-
Luke12.5

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Christ...then the whole point of your argument is moot....pointless.

However, let's say that Jesus and the New testament are true. Then...

the "rapture" as you described and many believe is not true...it does not come before the "tribulation.' It comes at the 7th Trumpet...the "last trump" as described by Paul, and confirmed by John in Revelation.

In fact, Jesus watches from the clouds as the angels come with their scythes and reap the harvest, leaving only the unsaved here on Earth. The order is as follows...

Revelation:Chap 6:Verse1 -Chap8:Verse 1...opening of the 7 Seals

Revelation:Chap8:Verse 6-Chap11:Verse 15... The 7 Trumpets

Revelation:Chap12-13...Rise of the AntiChrist and persecution of Church
This runs parallel to the 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets, just from an Earthly perspective...Chap14 is the same but from a Heavenly perspective

Revelation:Chap14:Verse14...the gathering/harvest/rapture of the Church...the true Church... not the phoney organized churches

RevelationChap16:Verse1...the pouring out of the 7 Vials of Wrath...God's anger and judgement are poured out onto the unsaved world that rejected Christ

Revelation:Chap19:Verse1 onward...the Second Coming/Return of Christ

Too many Christians and so-called christians are fooled into accepting the pre-tribulation rapture theory...I call it the "get out of jail free" card like in monopoly. They are not prepared nor preparing for what is going to happen and how bad it is going to be. It says we will be persecuted, executed, tortured, imprisoned, and all manner of unspeakable acts will come against us because we believe in Jesus Christ.

How can the blood of the saints flow in the tribulation if we are not here, but already gone?

Why warn us not to take the "mark of the beast" if we are not here to take it?

Why give us signs to be wary of, when we are not going to be here to see and discern them?

WHY?... We will be here. Be ever watchful friend, keep your oil lamp trimmed, full, and burning. Beware, for that great and terrible day of the Lord approacheth.

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.-1Cor15.44

The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ-Gal3.16

will hear the voice of the Son of God-John5.25 (I heard it)

The spirit is breath with which the word is formed and it blows to and fro and you know not where it comes from or to which it goes. This word forms in your cochlea and incises your ear drum and you hear it and you believe.

Do you know why you've heard it behind your left and in your left? You are no stranger to its correction, it's rapture and that your left is his right?

You witness this in using only scripture. You are not forgotten in your diligence.

Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

See the truth now. You have been a slave until you heard now see you are a friend.

Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


no not behind but beside and before I knew any scripture-it just confirms

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.-2Pet1.20

Originally posted by No King but Jesus

for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.-Matt28

Angels dont have wings. This is a flasehood. The bible never anywhere describes angels with wings. Angels were messengers and the name even means such. The bible does describe beings with wings but does not call them angels. Even this passage says nothing of wings. The implication is a mythological one. That to come down from heaven he must have flown. Furthermore why does an angel need clothes?

Very good post, autowrench!

Messiah=annointed; annointed with OIL. Has it always been about the oil?

Could it be that the "Lord" is really "the LARD"? The FAT cat? The Big Cheese?

Remember how the god of the old testament always got the "fatty" pieces from the burnt sacrifices?

What that really means is that those at the top who are playing god get the "fat" or the spoils from those whom they sacrifice or slaughter. The old testament god has always provided for "his people" through the spoils of war and there are many scriptures that uphold this.

reply to post by fizzy1


that particular passage does'nt mention wings (mostly like that one due to the lightning and white all over-again it does not say one way or the other-but did come down from heaven) but the one I had seen did maybe the proper term would be cherubim?(which I think alot of people commonly call angels)- I know what I saw regardless and am aware of all the appearance's of men etc.

The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward-Ex25.20-somewhere around 30 more reference to cherubim OT, study of angels cherubim seraphim is not my thing just know what I saw and mostly like to use this for all the scoffers who say I must have been on ?? to have heard The Voice

Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.-Is6.2 alot more of these also

what i saw was'nt clothes but all white and think that is what they were describing not a suit and tie like in Bruce Almighty-LOL

[edit on by No King but Jesus]

[edit on by No King but Jesus]

Part 1 of 2 from Texastig in response to autowrench.

Originally posted by autowrench
The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren.

The truth is that the first historical reference was from Paul the Apostle.

Originally posted by autowrench
Paul speaks of our being "changed"
(See 1Cor:15:51)
That could mean changes in DNA, or a host of other things altogether.

If you read the the whole chapter it's talking about a new body.

Originally posted by autowrench
He also speaks of our mortal bodies "putting on immortality". (See 1Cor.15:53)
This obviously means we are dead, removed from the human container and in Spirit, for are we not Immortal?

The dead in Christ will rise and change and we who are alive will change.

Originally posted by autowrench
There are may lies in the Bible, here is just one of the biggest ones:
"God is one Person, and His name is Jesus Christ."

If your referring to God being in a mans body then His name was Jesus.

Originally posted by autowrench
Where in history is Jesus? Even Titus Flavius Josephus, the Ancient Jewish historian had little to say, and most of that is not believed. Ignorance of science, and ignorance of history, are the two great bulwarks of religious error.

He's in alot of places in history. Josephus made two mentions of Jesus. Josephus Historian Steve Mason said that he will go to court to defend Josephus's statements about Jesus.
There's more reliable history for Jesus than any other person that came after Him.

Originally posted by autowrench
Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospel story cannot be found in Christian writings earlier than the Gospels, the first of which (Mark) was composed only in the late first century.

Paul's writing were before the Gospels. Paul talks about Jesus dying for our sins and rising from the dead.
99% of all scholars believe that Mark was written around 65-70ad.

Originally posted by autowrench
There is no non-Christian record of Jesus before the second century. References in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) can be dismissed as later Christian insertions.

See my remarks about Josephus above.

Originally posted by autowrench
The early apostles, such as Paul and Hebrews, speak of their Christ Jesus as a spiritual, heavenly being revealed by God through scripture, and do not equate him with a recent historical man. Paul is part of a new ‘salvation’ movement acting on revelation from the Spirit.

Hebrews is not an apostle. It is a book.
You can't have a recent historical man within 25 years after Him being raised from the dead.
Here's what Jesus says about Himself and His body:
Lukw 24:39 [Jesus is speaking]
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Originally posted by autowrench
The pagan ‘mystery cults’ of the period worshiped savior deities who had performed salvific acts which took place in the supernatural/mythical world, not on earth or in history. Paul’s Christ shares many features with these deities.

There is no historical evidence for these supposed deities. Jesus has lots of historical evidence.

Originally posted by autowrench
Was there a Jesus? Of course there was a Jesus – many!
www.jesusneverexisted.com...

Only one rose from the dead.

Originally posted by autowrench
The Gospels are not historical events, but constructed through a process of ‘midrash,’ a Jewish method of reworking old biblical passages and tales to reflect new beliefs. The story of Jesus’ trial and crucifixion is a pastiche of verses from scripture.

The idea the gospels are simply midrash has several problems associated with it. One is that the genre as such did not exist yet in Judaism as the Midrashim are a few centuries later.
blogs.bible.org...

What should already be clear by now is that the gospels are not even close to fitting this description of midrash:
From: www.christian-thinktank.com...
1. The various passages of the gospels NEVER start with a scripture citation from the Hebrew Bible, and proceed to explain it.
2. Any explanation of an OT/Tanakh text is done in the middle of a narrative, often as an incidental reference.
3. Most NT passages have no explicit references or allusions to specific verses of the Hebrew Bible.
4. Very few of the miracle stories about Jesus contain any mention or allusion to the Hebrew text at all.
5. The use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is generally used to explain/interpret the actions/events of Jesus' life in light of the Hebrew Text--and not vice versa (i.e., the passage is NOT an explanation of the Hebrew text at all).

Originally posted by autowrench
The "Q" Document, a collection extracted from Matthew and Luke, made no reference to a death and resurrection, and can be shown to have had no Jesus at its roots: roots which were ultimately non-Jewish. Well into the second century, many Christian documents lack or reject the notion of a human man as an element of their faith. Only gradually did the Jesus of Nazareth portrayed in the Gospels come to be accepted as historical. We don’t know the date of his birth--it was certainly not December 25 in the Year One. Nor do we know for certain where he was born, for his supposed birthplace did not exist at the time.

Some biblical scholars have proposed that there was a document prior to the writing of the gospels which was used by the writers of Matthew and Luke as a source of information. They have called this hypothetical document "Q." It is hypothetical because there is no proof that the document existed.









[edit on 6/28/2010 by texastig]

Part 2 of 2 from Texastig in response to autowrench.

Originally posted by autowrench
Not only did Jesus himself write nothing, but the attribution of the gospels to his disciples did not occur until the late first century at the earliest. Who here can remember what your wife/husband said three days ago? See what i mean? And Christians will have you believe that the red letters in the N.T. are the actual words of Christ himself.

Jesus didn't have to write anything. His actions are proof enough.

The evidence for the gospels is that they are all written in the first century and the early traditions about their authorship are unanimous. It seems quite certain that they were written by or under the supervision of the apostles. Matthew and John are apostles themselves; Luke is a companion of Paul and Mark is the amanuensis of Peter. John does not name himself, but refers to himself in the text as "the disciple that Jesus loved". The internal evidence is that the synoptic gospels were written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (since they contain Jesus' prediction of it but do not refer to it as an fulfilled prophecy). Acts, also written by Luke, concludes with Paul's arrival in Rome and therefore is probably to be dated before his acquittal and release. (He was imprisoned there a second time and executed in 69 AD.) The gospel is written before Acts, so it was probably written in the early 60s.

There are no other credible attributions of these gospels other than to the men whose names they bear; the only reason to doubt them is the desire of skeptics to claim that they were written much later and therefore give an untrue account. Since Luke's gospel is very plainly earlier than Acts and he was a participant in the events of Acts, and since he shares a lot of material with the other synoptic gospels, it is plain that all three of them are of the same early date; therefore their traditional attributions should be accepted. There is no valid reason to doubt the attribution of John either.
www.tektonics.org...

Originally posted by autowrench
Now Jesus was a Jew, right? Then why don't the Jewish People believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

The Jews were looking for a conqueror to come and to get them out of Roman oppression. That wasn't what Jesus came to do. You can find that
in the Bible.

Originally posted by autowrench
Folks, you have been lied to, and anyone can not use the Internet to find truth. there is not going to be a Rapture of Good Christian Souls, that was made up. And which Jesus did you say was coming back to "save" you, dear Christian? There are many, as there are many gods, one needs to choose one, I suppose, if one is going to call on one.

99% of all scholars accept that Paul wrote 6-8 epistles. One of those is 1 Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 15:3 Paul states:
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
Paul received the Gospel creed from Jesus disciples who were eyewitnesses. Paul talked to those eyewitnesses; thus Jesus is real.

Originally posted by autowrench
Are you on a string pulled along by the power of religion?

There is difference between Jesus and religion. Jesus gives up relationship with Him not religion.

Originally posted by autowrench
Do you believe in a heavenly kingdom where your earthly woes will be replaced by eternal bliss? If the devil is real how does one account for this prophecy from God:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I God do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

From: www.gotquestions.org...
The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.”

Originally posted by autowrench
If God is the maker of evil then what role does the devil play, if he exists?

He sure does exist. Read the true and scientific online book called, "The devil and Karen Kingston."
hbcdelivers.s439.sureserver.com...
I have authenticated the authenticity of the book twice.

Originally posted by autowrench
Why would God create something that could usurp his authority and overthrow Heaven?

God gave lucifer free will and he never overthrew Heaven. God gave Him the big boot.

Originally posted by autowrench
Your concepts of God, Heaven, Hell, the Devil, Angels and Saints come from mythology and recycled Egyptian Sun worship through the modern religions, mainly that of the Catholic Church.

There is no historical evidence that God, etc... came from mythology.

Originally posted by autowrench
Remember the Crusades, the Witch hunts, the Inquisition, the persecution of indigenous people, the genocide of American Indian Tribes, African and other natives and the list goes on. Remember too the burning alive of those who were deemed to be enemies of the Church by Popes, Bishops and even Queen Mary of England. The Burning times meant terrible death for one million people, mostly women. but then, you have labeled women as evil, haven't you? Remember that original sin now!

In all of the religious wars involving Christianity, less than 5 million people died. And that's in all history. Between nazism and communism more than a 100 million people have died and that's in the last 60-80 years.

Originally posted by autowrench
Good old boy Adam would never listen to the Serpent, now would he?

He didn't. It was his wife.

Originally posted by autowrench
Church hierarchy claims [it] has the keys to Heaven and that no one can enter unless they believe in Jesus Christ. It claims these things on the ground of one Jesus Christ who has never been proven to exist, except in the New Testament written by its own. The Roman Piso Family.

You don't need the keys of Heaven to get to Heaven. You get to Heaven by believing in Christ not church hierarchy.
Historian Gary Habermas proves that Christ existed, died and rose again.





[edit on 6/28/2010 by texastig]

Originally posted by GioTheGreek
Thanks mate.

This should make for an interesting read...

I didn't realize the Rapture scenario was created this late in history.

Absolute carnage... making up teachings out of nothing, to scare us into following. Attach it to the word of God and it spreads like wildfire.

Don't believe everything. There's always two sides to a story.

Originally posted by aboxoftrix
I think most people believe in Jesus because they were raised in that invironment, giving up something so magical feeling is hard to do. Education and a desire to seek the truth can help to see through the fog. There is a God, but u can't get to him through Jesus, Mohammet or anyone else.

No one has to give up anything. 99% of scholars believe that Paul wrote 1Cor 15 and in 1Cor 15:3 Paul talks about receiving the creed that Jesus died and rose again from the dead. Paul spoke to the eyewitnesses of Jesus. Thus Jesus is real.

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Actually the rapture has been happening. Rapture literally means "to rape" and nothing does that better then a little wooden man on a little wooden cross.

The rapture has not happened. The word “rapture” comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" that’s found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

How can a man be wooden?

Originally posted by autowrench
Here is logic.... according to you. Jesus died for my sins, in that a sin in this usage means an act against God's rules. So Jesus payed for my sins by dyingI still have to seek out Jesus and ask again for the same thing over? I thought he payed for my sins? guess not.

I think you don't understand sin.
Jesus died once for our sins. That means those who believe in Him are in "right standing" with God. Jesus doesn't have to keep dying for someone who sins.

reply to post by Village Idiot


"what are you on, biblical Autopilot.Why do Fundies always have to quote scripture, they're like ATMs (Automatic Talking Machines)
The Lord is my Shepard........ because we're stupid Sheep!"

it is the name you chose so your welcome I guess? no one said anything about those who cannot read-I asked YOU nor did I say anything about submitting to laws but it would have been nice if you would have known this one before the condescending "stupid" remarks

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."-Gal5.14

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.-Matt24.35

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.-Hab2.14

reply to post by Alethea


Actually it is all about the oil. In one of the texts found at Nag Hammadi (pretty sure it was the Gospel of Philip) it taught that the Messiah Jesus did everything in a mystery - a baptism, a chrism, a eucharist, a redemption, and a bridal chamber.

The olive tree is where the anointing oil comes from. King David was anointed three times. He was not the Messiah, but the Messiah lived in him through the power of the resurrection. This is the beauty and wander of true christianity.

It just goes to show that a bit of estoeric knowledge really does come in handy, but then again the truest knowledge is reserved for those that seek it out, not for those who just want to run it in the ground because they are clueless and I guess somewhat bored.

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
"I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.'-Jer23.20

You're asked to use your own words, and this is what you respond with?

reply to post by elocin


how's this-

I agree with the Lord in that He is against the ones that teach stuff that do not agree with the gospel of peace that came once for all through God's firstborn Son raised from the dead Ruler of Heaven and Earth the King of kings Lord of lords Jesus Christ whose blood was shed for the sins of all that whosoever believes in Him should have eternal life thats how I read it anyway but certainly no one can change the fact that I heard a voice one time audibly as if sitting on my left one night as soon as I began to open a small green Gideons NT that ONLY said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-I stood to my feet startled turned to the voice and said yes Lord and thank God that American woman left that on the bar a few days earlier because I was fixin to shoot my self (have enjoyed many things in life since) but had put down the Colt when I noticed it on the bar in one last effort of hope, before that I said God was just something for the weak minded to believe in to make sense of it all, now I just want to get to the bottom of certain things for certain reasons that I find threatening where there should be no threat, how bout you?