Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

reply to post by Cor Leonis

I sure don't want to be on the receiving end with those who scoff at and mock the Holy Word of God and the Lamb of God who was crucified and died for the sins of the world.

Maybe they wouldn't "mock" it if there weren't so many contradictions in it the religious followers prefer to ignore.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

I do not believe that it can be either proven or disproven whether Jesus dies on the cross, was executed by other means, or even survived the ordeal and lived to be an old man. It is his message of unconditional love for each other and that we have the potential inside us to be as he was that is important. It does not diminish my belief in his message in the least.

reply to post by gaiagirl


Its a nice story, but thats as far as i'll go. Am i bound by it? No. Do i believe Jesus was crucified? Maybe. Maybe not. Do i think if he was crucified, that he would be the son of god? No, Do i think god is real or knowable? No.

Do i believe we are not born sinners? Yes. Do i believe we have natural emotions; empathy, sympathy, love? Yes. We can use them intelligently to all get along and be moral human beings without fantasy stories.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

Originally posted by schuyler
Actually, there is proof of crucifixion. I get a magazine called "Biblical Archaeology" and they showed a find of a foot where the heel bone has a nail right through it at about the right time.

No one is doubting the possibility that a man named Jesus was crucified, no one is denying the fact that such inhumane rituals were performed, as there is evidence of bones etc. confirming these barbaric activities

Yes, people are doubting it. The scholar cited at the start of this thread is denying it, which is why I responded as I did. I thought it was pretty clear that I was not addressing anyone's beliefs here. I wasn't addressing the "message" either.

All I am saying is that it is NOT TRUE that crucifixions did not take place during that time period because we have physical evidence that it did.

Originally posted by schuyler
All I am saying is that it is NOT TRUE that crucifixions did not take place during that time period because we have physical evidence that it did.

As we are accepting physical evidence as absolute, here is a double stitched shoe print embedded in 5 million old stone. So, this means that 5 million years ago people were walking around in shoes that weren't actually invented until the 20th century. (the double stitching that is....)

Link

The above link is just to illustrate the shoe print and not an endorsement of that other site.

My point with this is that there is evidence of a lot of weird stuff from the past. This shoe print shows that someone did walk around in a 20th century shoe, but that is hardly evidence that this was commonplace. It's possible that the Romans hung some people on a cross, and it's possible a bunch of people were simply interested in gaining a level of control over the masses and made the whole thing up. Given the subsequent dark ages, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

In any event..my other posts, ignored by the thumpers clearly outlines my opinion of the established "church".

..Ex

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by aboxoftrix

 

Sorry hunni. You're way off the chart. They believe he is both a prophet and the messiah. en.wikipedia.org...

just to clarify, you are correct, kinda. they do see Jesus as A messiah, but not THE Messiah (meaning the Son of God, long promised savior of the jews). He was seen as a great prophet, a forerunner to Muhammad, who was believed to foretell of his (Muhammad) coming. It has nothing to do with the meaning of the Messiah according to both Christians and Jews. And that is all backed up by your source.

Being a Christian myself, I'm also as you can see a fellow ATS member who works to find new information and research into conspiracy theories. I simply can not sit in front of a television set and be brainwashed into the nonsense they show on it. So, I've researched numerous times and found sufficient evidence to find certain theories correct. However, in terms of religion and my faith, that's a totally different story.
To be honest with you, my belief as a Christian has much more to do with than simply reading the Bible. There's much more to Christianity, then what you guys might see. Personally, I considered myself distanced away from God... never really had a grip on Christianity, thought it was a fairy tale to deceive gullible people. I'm the type of person who simply needs proof and credible sources to verify certain things (If you know what I mean). Yet, over the years I've had many downfalls in my life... I wanted to just end it, didn't think there was a purpose to it, and I was sure anything would be better than my life here on Earth.
One chilling school day in Chicago however, changed my perspective of God, and changed my life. I was a freshman back in high school, and so I woke up one day and felt really sick. In my head I was really angry with my life, things weren't going my way... everything bad was happening to me. I was pissed. So, I'm thinking in my head right now, "If there was a God above me, why isn't he looking at my life... why doesn't he care for me?." Turns out I have to miss swimming class, which I really loved... swimming relieves a lot of my stress. But it was my last day of swimming. After swimming had ended, one of the fans malfunctioned and blew up right next to the pool area, and the school was being evacuated. The fact is, it's the middle of winter and it was about -30F. I instantly knew that at the time we were being evacuated, was the time I would be still showering. (I'm was always the last one out) If I had gone swimming that day, I would have died.. imagine being soaked in water, and then heading out immediately out in -30F blood freezing weather. About a 100% chance of my death... If i had not been sick in the morning.
I'm sure you might think that, "Oh it could be one of those chances, I was very lucky." But really, I thought about how every one of us God cares about... He keeps us safe, even if we aren't close to Him.
This incident really sparked back my interest in my God... although I didn't immediately turn into a Christian, it was the starting point.
If you think I'm a Christian simply because of this incident, you are very wrong... there is much more to it.
I started reading the Bible, understood a lot of it's teachings... it gave me a lot of wisdom. It taught me to be humble, generous, kind, loving, all that good stuff. I looked at the world, looked at our own country... I knew I was being brainwashed by the mass media, music, movies, other people... I stopped listening to rap and stopped alcohol. I realized that the outside world was pushing me to do horrible things. I became a much better person with a meaning to life. I took various science courses, and Biology really made me think about God. The human body alone, is much greater than the tallest of mountains. Humans are so complex and intelligent, I really didn't give into the 'big bang theory' or the theory that we evolved from single cells that came out of no where. The human mind is far complex and advanced than any other organism on this planet. The Rational Species. We have eyelashes on our eyes to protect us from dirt into our eyes, we have five fingers on each hand that allows us to grip. We have the sense of pain to tell our bodies not to touch. We have the extraordinary feelings of love, sadness, hatred, jealousy, guilt, pride, anger, attraction, inspiration, the list goes on and on. We even fresh water, vegetables, fruits, that are essential for us. Our God even died for our sins!


Our God is an awesome God!

reply to post by silo13

reply to post by Kapyong

# Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
# From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
# The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
# Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa.


The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa

At the bottom of the page you gave a link to, is a powerful refutation of the so-called "evidence" that the Biblical Jesus ever traveled to India/Tibet.

The Jesus of the New Testament

The entire theory is based on the word of one man, Nicolas Notovitch. A brief intro on him -

As the story goes, in 1887, Nicolas Notovitch - a Russian war correspondent - went on a journey through India. While en route to Leh, the capital of Ladakh (in Northern India along the Tibetan border), he heard a Tibetan lama (i.e., monk) in a monastery refer to a grand lama named Issa (the Tibetan form of "Jesus"). Notovitch inquired further, and discovered that a chronicle of the life of Issa existed with other sacred scrolls at the Convent of Himis (about 25 miles from Leh).

Here's a piece from the article -

F. Max Muller. In October 1894, preeminent Orientalist Max Muller of Oxford University (who himself was an advocate of Eastern philosophy and therefore could not be accused of having a Christian bias) published a refutation of Notovitch in The Nineteenth Century, a scholarly review. Four of his arguments are noteworthy: (1) Muller asserted that an old document like the one Notovitch allegedly found would have been included in the Kandjur and Tandjur (catalogues in which all Tibetan literature is supposed to be listed). (2) He rejected Notovitch's account of the origin of the book. He asked how Jewish merchants happened, among the millions of India, to meet the very people who had known Issa as a student, and still more "how those who had known Issa as a simple student in India saw at once that he was the same person who had been put to death under Pontius Pilate."[8] (3) Muller cites a woman who had visited the monastery of Himis and made inquiries about Notovitch. According to a letter she wrote (dated June 29, 1894), "there is not a single word of truth in the whole story! There has been no Russian here. There is no life of Christ there at all!"[9] And (4) Muller questioned the great liberty Notovitch took in editing and arranging the alleged verses. Muller said this is something no reputable scholar would have done.

Notovitch promptly responded to Muller's arguments in the preface to the London edition of The Life of Saint Issa which was published the following year (1895). But his response did little to satisfy his critics. He said: (1) The verses which were found would not be in any catalogues because "they are to be found scattered through more than one book without any title."[10] (But in his first preface he said the Convent of Himis contained "a few copies of the manuscript in question."[11]) (2) Regarding the unlikeliness of Jewish merchants encountering those who knew Issa as a child in India, Notovitch said "they were not Jewish but Indian merchants who happened to witness the crucifixion prior to returning home from Palestine."[12] (Even so, it would still be unlikely that - among the millions in India - the merchants would come upon the precise people who knew Issa as a child.) (3) As for editing and arranging the verses in The Life of Saint Issa, Notovitch said that the same kind of editing was done with the Iliad and no one ever questioned that. (But how does this legitimize Notovitch's modus operandi?) (4) As to the refusal by the lama of Himis to affirmatively answer questions about the manuscript (as he apparently did with the lady who wrote Muller), Notovitch says this was because "Orientals are in the habit of looking upon Europeans as robbers who introduce themselves in their midst to despoil them in the name of civilization."[13] Notovitch succeeded only "because I made use of the Eastern diplomacy which I had learnt in my travels."14 (This was a convenient rationalization, for Notovitch could always point to a lack of "Eastern diplomacy" on the part of a European challenger whenever a monk refused to corroborate the Issa legend.)

Assuming (wrongly) that his response to Muller laid criticism of his work to rest, Notovitch suggested that in the future his critics restrict themselves solely to the question: "Did those passages exist in the monastery of Himis, and have I faithfully reproduced their substance?"[15]

I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread yet, but related to one I read on the first page this doesn't really point towards Islam much. The Quran states that SOMEBODY was crucified (it stated that Jesus didn't die on the cross, it just appeared so - Qur'an 4:157-158), so it implied crucifixions and pretty much agrees with the Bible except for him dying on the cross. So it appears that both would be in error. Also, notice that the page originally linked to stated "He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails or to crucifixion - only that Jesus bore a "staurus" towards Calvary which is not necessarily a cross but can also mean a "pole". I'm not trying to prove or support the authenticity of the bible or anything like that, but I have heard Christians that don't beleive that he died on a cross before.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by NamelessMonster]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by NamelessMonster]

Humbly I would just like to say that it matters not what He died on, could have been hung, decapitated, cut, shot, or any number of a million other ways one may be executed.

Making HOW He died more important than what His total purpose was while here on Earth is the current order of the day.

On the one hand many scriptures state that He died upon a Stauros or Stake or Pole.

On the other hand YAHUWchannon (John) 20:25 says, "...His hands the print of the nails..."

Notice it said the print of the nail(s) plural.

Long story short, the churches all use this topic to divide and conquer the minds of the mindless.

THink about it, the only reason Churchianity makes this an issue is because they use the cross Idols. These idols that Exodus 20:4 said, " You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness which is in the heavens above..."

Other religion(s) use this topic to cause others to feel separate from the world because they do not believe in a cross. So in essence the topic is used to divide, conquer and separate their followers from others which pretty much accomplishes the same thing in a different way.

Whether a cross or pole, WHO CARES? It was WHO was executed, WHY He was executed and what he did before, during and after that awful torture sentence was fulfilled.

Getting to the real truths is what they do not want you to do. Namely, Seek the truth in all things, keep ALL The 10+1+1 Covenant Eternal Laws of YAH and His Son YaHuW Savior. Lastly, proclaim these easy to follow directions to others.

Originally posted by Cor Leonis
reply to post by Sinter Klaas

 

What is it going to take his coming in flaming fire before some to be convinced that the Holy Bible is truth?

Actually.. yeah. Pretty much that's what it would take for me to believe. And I would.

An ancient book is not proof to me. An ancient book is a record of what people believed they saw.

And if you watch any given event, and then ask people what happened everyone will have different accounts. The more dramatic the event, the more the accounts will grow in to completely different occurences.

The usual tripe.
So crucifixion was a form of annoyance?

After flagellation, beating then being attached to a pole or cross, death would seem likely. But i'm sure this essay will be enough for a few more people to think that the Bible is wrong. The JWs believe it is a stake too, it's not news.

I would say that burial is usually reserved for the dead though, so would have expected a live Jesus to put up a bit more of a fight.

I know who I trust

reply to post by mike2112


Well said. People should read the Bible for themselves, avoid organised religion. When you understand it (and I don't claim to understand it all by any means) then you can see Satan behind the scenes of all the secret societies and it explains why such societies have lasted throughout history. Purely man-made organisations would fracture and dissolve over thousands of years without the common Satanic goal - turning people away from Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by YAHUWAH SAVES
THink about it, the only reason Churchianity makes this an issue is because they use the cross Idols. These idols that Exodus 20:4 said, " You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness which is in the heavens above..."

Interestingly the number 666 calculates in Hebrew to be

6=vav=nail
60=samech=prop
400=tav=cross
200=resh=head (leader,chief, beginning)

That would be the four elements of the crucifix which would be the image of the beast.

Oh and the Lord said many would come in his name claiming they are he. That name adds up to 616 if you tranliterate it letter for letter.

That is why the Lord says in Revelation I will give you my new name and He has a name written which no one knows but he himself.

I think its important to understand the fundamentals of Christianity before arguing about a crucifixion.

The four Gospels of the new testament, which is about 300 pages of info, were written at earliest 70 AD. The gospel of Mark was written first, and all others are obviously built off of Mark. Mark was written in 70 AD because it speaks of the invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans, and the destruction of the temple, which has now become the 'Western Wall'.

Between Jesus's supposed crucifixion and the earliest possible date of writting a gospel, there is a 40 year gap, between 33 AD and 70 AD. The link between these two dates is Saul of Tarsus (Paul the apostle). Paul had a vision in the desert were he was blinded by the light, and saw the ressurected Jesus. Paul then preached the Gospel, becoming an angry prophet who denounced the hypocracies of his times, and spread the word of Jesus. However, what paul doesnt mention in his letters, is the life or the man of Jesus. He doesnt talk about his miracle birth, his virgin mother, apostles, prophets, 3 kings, eatern stars, miracles, he talks about NOTHING except, the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus. There is no human element in his teaching.

There is evidence that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and lived the rest of his days in Kashmir, India, with his mother mary.

www.tombofjesus.com...

During the time of Jesus, very few people were literate, and few could write, the ones that could were mostly priests, and elites. Israel was a trading center, nestled in between the Roman, Indian, Babylonian, and Egyptian empires. There were many tades, languages, philosohies moving through Israel.

Jesus had a miraculous birth, and it was known from the beginning, that he was the son of God. However, soon after this miraculous birth, and the arrival of man christs savior, hardly anything is written about his. One incident in the Temple at age 13, and thats about it...

IF he was the savior of all man kind, dont you think someone who be documenting his every move? Wouldnt we know everything there is to know about this guy? There really shouldnt be a missing 20 years.

It is believed he traveled to Egypt, Ethiopia. India, and leaned the teachings in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Egyptian mythology. ACcording to some theories, he survived his death sentence, and lived out the rest of his life in Kashmir.

One thing ive leaned is that, when the Federal Government, wants me to believe something, its usually a lie. So when i see Bush obama et al going to church, and see billboards on the highways saying 'Jesus Saves' and what not, i know something is a miss, cause the only thing the Fed wants is for you to be naive, ignorant, and unintelligent, anything else threatens their plans.

"The height of arrogance is the height of control of those who seek to create God in their image"

I think we need to stop arguing about God. We should look at religion objectively, but not count out spirituality.

I do not believe Jesus Christ was God, however i do believe in Jesus and his teachings. The three main things Jesus taught was, love yourself, love your neighbor, and what I can do you can do also.

I think we need Jesus today desperately, not as a God, but as a man, someone we can then all relate to, someone who is not above or beyond us. Because then if you do that, then you have one of the greatest stories ever told, fact or fiction.

A man, stood up against the greed / corruption of the Jews/Phaacies, and the power and might of Rome. He preached a message of love, unity and harmony. Most importantly, he taught that YOU can be Jesus, you can stand up for something moral right and just.

Isnt that what we really need today? Someone to stand up for whats right? Against phony corrupt government, new world orders, raping and destruction of the natural world, and the 1000's upon 1000's of other things that are wrong with this world?

YOU BE JESUS!

my first post, hopefully didnt break any rules

reply to post by ztruthseeker

I think its important to understand the fundamentals of Christianity before arguing about a crucifixion.

I don't think it is, i think its important to understand that crucification is a barbaric human torture form that should never be cast up anyone, even if they "CLAIM" to be the son of "GOD"

I've said it before and i'll say it again; I am not bound by Jesus and his actions, he thinks he's the son of God, i ask for proof. Do i think its a nice story to show how someone sacrifice their life for someone else? No, i can think of a better story to show true love for other human beings. Do we need God or Jesus to learn how to love? No.

First off, if God CREATED man in his image then that would mean we are all Gods childern not just a man named Jesus. Second, considering the physical proof that dates back to the time of Jesus and people being nailed to a wooden pole/cross it is possible that a man named Jesus was though it will never be able to be confirmed. Third, if you need a book to tell you how to treat other people you are truely pathetic!

Well at one point he is right. It is very hard finding a "person" wich was crucified at the cross that many years ago. But then again, we scientists together with both historians and archaeologists KNOW that Jesus was NOT a person, but a personification of the SUN wich has been used within religions of mankind from day 1,this is a common and factual astrological event within the solar system.

The facts about this will be most likely be given out to the public by the world governments after or at the same time the last parts of the 18 month project about revealing the facts about- Extra terrestrials.

Sit back and watch the news and new discoveries. A new time is waiting.

Minneapolis Science.

Gday,

Originally posted by silo13
# Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet

NO they don't.
That's why you didn't QUOTE these "ancient scrolls".
They don't exist.

Originally posted by silo13
# From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men

There is NO evidence for this.
Which is why you didn't quote any.

Originally posted by silo13
# The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians

There are NO such records.
Which is why you didn't quote any.

Originally posted by silo13
Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ.

A known hoax.


So, not ONE actual piece of historical evidence.


Kap

Notovitch was a HOAX :

"Edgar Goodspeed describes the debunking of Notovitch's claims as a hoax.

Notovitch's writings were immediately controversial and after the German orientalist Max Mueller corresponded with the Hemis monastery Notovitch claimed to have visited, and J.Archibald Douglas visited Hemis Monastery, and neither found any evidence that Notovich (much less Jesus) had even been there himself, his claims were widely rejected. The head of the Hemis community signed a document that denounced Notovitch as an outright liar.[10]

The story of his visit to Hemis seems to be taken from H.P. Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled.[11] In the original, the traveler with the broken leg was taken in at Mount Athos in Greece and found the text of Celsus' True Doctrine in the monastery library."

en.wikipedia.org...


Kap